Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[maximus777]

What does pak j35 change really..

I get there is some new capability but pak's problem is it's geography. all their assets are with the range of indian stand off weapons.

I prefer they spend money on a costly 5th generation fighters than on putting together a better AD (remember these are have high opex as well as up front costs)

As the recent events prove, a conflict with Pak will be a short sharp one. With stealth, PAF can probably accomplish what they couldn't do this time, i.e. to penetrate our air space and either attack our military sites and cities or cause significant damage to IAF. All this assuming the stealth actually works and our AD/CAP cannot intercept them. I wouldn't want to find this out under battle conditions though.

Money is not an object for Pak. Either they will finance it through IMF or get it for free from PRC in the guise of some geopolitical strategic game.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

As the recent events prove, a conflict with Pak will be a short sharp one. With stealth, PAF can probably accomplish what they couldn't do this time, i.e. to penetrate our air space and either attack our military sites and cities or cause significant damage to IAF. All this assuming the stealth actually works and our AD/CAP cannot intercept them. I wouldn't want to find this out under battle conditions though.

Money is not an object for Pak. Either they will finance it through IMF or get it for free from PRC in the guise of some geopolitical strategic game.

No stealth aircraft has penetrated multi-layed top end air defence in history so far - so whether a stealth aircraft CAN do that - is a matter of theory and claim than reality.

And there is a good reason why this theory hasnt been tested - even by China where they could easily fly their J-20 agains SoKo or our air defence.
This is because, stealth planes are NOT invisible to radar. They are practically invisible to high frequency x-band radar. Those are the ones air defence systems + combat planes +missiles use for radar.
But always remember, stealth, over the ENTIRE EM spectrum, is a case of ' you rob peter to pay paul' : stealth aircrafts ARE extremely visible to low resolution weather radars

Yes, weather radars suck in pin-point accuracy but hey....you never know what weird thing tech people can do, mating a weather radar to data filtration devices to a SAM battery- maybe they CAN shoot you down over their air-space by doing this - so why risk this, if you dont have to ?

Besides, i would be surprised if China trusts pakistan with more tech - last time Pakistan shat the bed with far superior tech to India was in 1971 - where PNS ghazi was supposed to be cutting edge US tech and their sherman tanks were faaaaaaaaaaaaaar better than our T-50s. But we schooled them.
And ever since, Pakis havent gotten a single high tech cutting edge thing from USA - even the F16s they got are 15 year old block A/B crap.
Why ?
Because once you shit the bed and lose with what was supposed to be unkillable weapon, your supplier isnt ever gonna trust your competency and would always err on side of caution to protect THEIR hardware reputation.

 

[aim120]

If Rafale is going to take the role of Mirage 2000 in delivering western air to ground munition at stand off distances, then there is no need for additional Rafale considering we will also have the M version. It's too expensive.

Might as well get the Su57, no matter what it will have a lower RCS, higher range and will most likely be able to launch Indian missiles compared to Rafale. It will also work with S70 should we need a heavy class drone. The fact that these two aircraft where seen flying above Ukraine city/town undetected by Patriot/S300 and entire NATO assests, shows that it works.

Su57M is the one which will be ordered in numbers by Russia. With lessons applied from Ukraine war.

 

[maximus777]

No stealth aircraft has penetrated multi-layed top end air defence in history so far - so whether a stealth aircraft CAN do that - is a matter of theory and claim than reality.

And there is a good reason why this theory hasnt been tested - even by China where they could easily fly their J-20 agains SoKo or our air defence.
This is because, stealth planes are NOT invisible to radar. They are practically invisible to high frequency x-band radar. Those are the ones air defence systems + combat planes +missiles use for radar.
But always remember, stealth, over the ENTIRE EM spectrum, is a case of ' you rob peter to pay paul' : stealth aircrafts ARE extremely visible to low resolution weather radars

Yes, weather radars suck in pin-point accuracy but hey....you never know what weird thing tech people can do, mating a weather radar to data filtration devices to a SAM battery- maybe they CAN shoot you down over their air-space by doing this - so why risk this, if you dont have to ?

Besides, i would be surprised if China trusts pakistan with more tech - last time Pakistan shat the bed with far superior tech to India was in 1971 - where PNS ghazi was supposed to be cutting edge US tech and their sherman tanks were faaaaaaaaaaaaaar better than our T-50s. But we schooled them.
And ever since, Pakis havent gotten a single high tech cutting edge thing from USA - even the F16s they got are 15 year old block A/B crap.
Why ?
Because once you shit the bed and lose with what was supposed to be unkillable weapon, your supplier isnt ever gonna trust your competency and would always err on side of caution to protect THEIR hardware reputation.

Granted the reputation of the wunderwaffen will take a hit, but it is the cheapest way to bleed India. I am certain the Turds and PRC will not miss this opportunity. Plus what have they got to lose? If sh.t hits the fan, it's the Pakis who get banged up. Just blame it on the lack of professionalism and training among Pak "aaand" forces just like the PL15 and HQ9 episode.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Granted the reputation of the wunderwaffen will take a hit, but it is the cheapest way to bleed India. I am certain the Turds and PRC will not miss this opportunity. Plus what have they got to lose? If sh.t hits the fan, it's the Pakis who get banged up. Just blame it on the lack of professionalism and training among Pak "aaand" forces just like the PL15 and HQ9 episode.

Pakis and turkis have nothing to lose by trashing their weapons platform's reputation. Its a game-changer for China and USA. So they are highly unlikely to give pakis any cutting edge tech.

 

[username unkown]

As the recent events prove, a conflict with Pak will be a short sharp one. With stealth, PAF can probably accomplish what they couldn't do this time, i.e. to penetrate our air space and either attack our military sites and cities or cause significant damage to IAF. All this assuming the stealth actually works and our AD/CAP cannot intercept them. I wouldn't want to find this out under battle conditions though.

Money is not an object for Pak. Either they will finance it through IMF or get it for free from PRC in the guise of some geopolitical strategic game.

Stealth isn't invisible no stealth aircraft is invisible on radar every one of them is detected stealth mean is late detection reportedly too late for air defence to react
A stealth wouldn't be successful in multi layered dense interconnected ADS such as ours you have to penetrate every layer
In future weare looking for induction of more indegenous ADS which is only going to make it more dense
And mind you india is currently fielding radar powerful enough to detect launch of pakistani missile so it can detect and track incoming stealth aircraft from long distance enough to react

 

[Doreamon]

Looking at this su 57 untill AMCA is ready seems somewhat more acceptable. It's unit cost 50 mil , manufacturing in india , super sonic missile , addition of Indian weapon and AMCA components we have developed so far .. The down side is it's not as stealthy as a 5th gen fighter jets should be but there are other benefits .. And the current geopolitics . I hope Ukraine war ends and Russia puts a condition of removal of catsa in peace offering .


View: https://youtu.be/NIYSKXqav-M?si=xV3cch0POsBDVW9e

 

[Drwho]

Looking at this su 57 untill AMCA is ready seems somewhat more acceptable. It's unit cost 50 mil , manufacturing in india , super sonic missile , addition of Indian weapon and AMCA components we have developed so far .. The down side is it's not as stealthy as a 5th gen fighter jets should be but there are other benefits .. And the current geopolitics . I hope Ukraine war ends and Russia puts a condition of removal of catsa in peace offering .


View: https://youtu.be/NIYSKXqav-M?si=xV3cch0POsBDVW9e

There is no invisible aircraft. We have seen times and times again. Even recently f35 had to save it self from houthis. It was a good pilot who saved the machine.
Even the failures it is facing despite its escalated cost of maintenance is a big concern.
Even su57 e will be not at par. With not as stealthy and advance electronics. It will face issues.
Only good planning and large number can evade shortcomings.
India have an option of manufacture and install it’s own and European components. That might help a bit.

Main deal is:
1. Political gains
2. Technology gains
3. Cost of manufacturing and maintenance
4. Strategic gains such as during war how much you depend on other nations.
5. Numbers you can produce.

I think su57e with new engine and nozzle takes a leap here. Rest we will see how world politics change in coming years.
But decision should be fast, as we are already too far behind.

 

[DancingPeacock]

All the talks of Su-57 is nonsense. It takes atleast 10 years for swapping all the electronics and integration of all the weapons for it to be any sort of meaningful combat capable aircraft.

Better invest more in Rocket Forces and SAM.

 

[silentassassin265]

Looking at this su 57 untill AMCA is ready seems somewhat more acceptable. It's unit cost 50 mil , manufacturing in india , super sonic missile , addition of Indian weapon and AMCA components we have developed so far .. The down side is it's not as stealthy as a 5th gen fighter jets should be but there are other benefits .. And the current geopolitics . I hope Ukraine war ends and Russia puts a condition of removal of catsa in peace offering .


View: https://youtu.be/NIYSKXqav-M?si=xV3cch0POsBDVW9e

Unit cost will be more than 100 mils, but as it will be made locally it will help our own industry.
Still better than buying more rafales as it will not be manufactured here

 

[silentassassin265]

All the talks of Su-57 is nonsense. It takes atleast 10 years for swapping all the electronics and integration of all the weapons for it to be any sort of meaningful combat capable aircraft.

Better invest more in Rocket Forces and SAM.

IAF made it clear that they will import and keep mmrca going.
We can just hope they won't buy any western platform

 

[shade2]

All the talks of Su-57 is nonsense. It takes atleast 10 years for swapping all the electronics and integration of all the weapons for it to be any sort of meaningful combat capable aircraft.

Better invest more in Rocket Forces and SAM.

For stealth only option has to be AMCA being fast tracked, do whatever it takes including getting a foreign partner if necessary, like the cockroaches did with BAE for their Kaane stealth jet.

 

[Drwho]

All the talks of Su-57 is nonsense. It takes atleast 10 years for swapping all the electronics and integration of all the weapons for it to be any sort of meaningful combat capable aircraft.

Better invest more in Rocket Forces and SAM.

This is crazy , maximum time it will take will be 18 months . Only that we have to include private players. Start induction of mark 1. A couple of squadron.
Hal should be kept busy with lca and amca.
Private players with some govt observation and few drdo + hal engineers should do it.

You can not depend on rocket forces and Sam for stealth age. Pakistan will get its first fifth gen in a year or more. Where would india get skills for amca and defence against sino pak ?

Some revolutionary decision needs to be taken. And BJP Govt can do it with full mandate.

 

[silentassassin265]

For stealth only option has to be AMCA being fast tracked, do whatever it takes including getting a foreign partner if necessary, like the cockroaches did with BAE for their Kaane stealth jet.

AMCA is still far away from prototype construction.
One the first flight is done they only we can order and it will be delivered 3 yrs later.
The first AMCA will arrive in 2030 if everything goes smoothly and by 2040 around 120 jets can be delivered.
Meanwhile if we order su57 in 2025, the imported jets will arrive by 2028 and by 2030 we will have 2 squadrons. And the locally made one will start arriving at 2030 in best case scenario

 

[sameer]

All the talks of Su-57 is nonsense. It takes atleast 10 years for swapping all the electronics and integration of all the weapons for it to be any sort of meaningful combat capable aircraft.

Better invest more in Rocket Forces and SAM.

iaf/MoD have had a bad experience with that whole pakfa/fagfa(whatever it was called) program. We spent hundreds of millions of $$ on that only to get nothing in return. It's simply not going to happen given how much the IAF is against it. There's a reason why we got out of that program in 2018, way too many improvements had to be made.

 

[concard]

SU-57 non sense started again here. Let me refresh some memories for some folks who were in diapers at that time perhaps.

Before refreshing old memories, can't you all ask one simple question about SU-57? If SU-57 is wonder shit why Russians haven't inducted in massive numbers? Even Russians don't have confidence in that aircraft and you are expecting us to induct into our air force? What is wrong with you people?

Now the old memories

After our success and satisfaction with Su-30 MKI, in 2009 our air force wanted to go for 5th gen aircraft. They convinced UPA-2 government to invest $250 million into this program which we called FGFA (Fifth generation fighter aircraft). Now that money maybe peanuts today but that was in 2009 when forex was barely $200 billion. So it was lot of money back then. And we were investing in research and development. As everything with Russians these days lot of that money went into some corrupt Russian politician pocket and they churned out a sub standard prototype.

And guess what if reports are to believed they did not even allow IAF officials to inspect the prototype. So anyway our guys thought there is still room for improvement and maybe future iterations would be better and asked DRDO to negotiate with Russians for some 200-300 of those aircrafts. That's when Russians gave us the bill. They asked $30 billion for further development and delivery of these aircrafts. Basically, we were being asked to invest in their military industrial complex with no technology transfer. So we should give them the money for a product which doesn't exist for research and development. And they will deliver if (a big fucking if) they succeed in making a satisfactory product according to our requirements.

Russians were milking us just like the way they milked us to deliver INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier. Initially we paid $800 million to deliver the aircraft carrier, then they jacked up the price 3 times to $3 billion to give us the finished product. This is the reason DRDO said fuck it with that investment we can stimulate our own aviation industry. Whatever collaboration we have with Russians today are only in certain areas like missiles(, Astra MK2 etc). We might have bought S400 but you already see we are already working on Project Kusha our S400 equivalent.

In short, we can and should no longer rely on Russians for critical equipment like fighter jets. In fact, we should not rely on anyone. We got to build our own military industrial complex if we have to be strong and resilient nation. So cut the crap about SU-57.

 

[Doreamon]

SU-57 non sense started again here. Let me refresh some memories for some folks who were in diapers at that time perhaps.

Before refreshing old memories, can't you all ask one simple question about SU-57? If SU-57 is wonder shit why Russians haven't inducted in massive numbers? Even Russians don't have confidence in that aircraft and you are expecting us to induct into our air force? What is wrong with you people?

Now the old memories

After our success and satisfaction with Su-30 MKI, in 2009 our air force wanted to go for 5th gen aircraft. They convinced UPA-2 government to invest $250 million into this program which we called FGFA (Fifth generation fighter aircraft). Now that money maybe peanuts today but that was in 2009 when forex was barely $200 billion. So it was lot of money back then. And we were investing in research and development. As everything with Russians these days lot of that money went into some corrupt Russian politician pocket and they churned out a sub standard prototype.

And guess what if reports are to believed they did not even allow IAF officials to inspect the prototype. So anyway our guys thought there is still room for improvement and maybe future iterations would be better and asked DRDO to negotiate with Russians for some 200-300 of those aircrafts. That's when Russians gave us the bill. They asked $30 billion for further development and delivery of these aircrafts. Basically, we were being asked to invest in their military industrial complex with no technology transfer. So we should give them the money for a product which doesn't exist for research and development. And they will deliver if (a big fucking if) they succeed in making a satisfactory product according to our requirements.

Russians were milking us just like the way they milked us to deliver INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier. Initially we paid $800 million to deliver the aircraft carrier, then they jacked up the price 3 times to $3 billion to give us the finished product. This is the reason DRDO said fuck it with that investment we can stimulate our own aviation industry. Whatever collaboration we have with Russians today are only in certain areas like missiles(, Astra MK2 etc). We might have bought S400 but you already see we are already working on Project Kusha our S400 equivalent.

In short, we can and should no longer rely on Russians for critical equipment like fighter jets. In fact, we should not rely on anyone. We got to build our own military industrial complex if we have to be strong and resilient nation. So cut the crap about SU-57.

Man the whole debate started after news of pak getting 40 j 35 , china already replacing 4th gen with 5th and AMCA coming around 2035 -40 . Can we maintain parity like this .. it's f35 vs su57 . If modi can get some engine deal and clarifications on restrictions ( we operate s400 ) with f35 so let it be few squadrons of f35 . But if airforce think additional number of rafales are enough to deal with any 5th gen threat its their call in the end . They know better .

 

[concard]

Man the whole debate started after news of pak getting 40 j 35 , china already replacing 4th gen with 5th and AMCA coming around 2035 -40 . Can we maintain parity like this .. it's f35 vs su57 . If modi can get some engine deal and clarifications on restrictions ( we operate s400 ) with f35 so let it be few squadrons of f35 . But if airforce think additional number of rafales are enough to deal with any 5th gen threat its their call in the end . They know better .

They won't be getting any high tech stuff, relax. If they are getting J-35 it will probably be trash. I have already explained this in another post of mine. Read it.

Stealth Fighter development

Before Americans built F-22 and F-35, they built F-117 Night hawk and B-2 spirit bomber. So they had a solid foundation to build F-22 and F-35. Despite having laid such strong foundation building and developing F-22 cost them a bomb. That is why they stopped production midway at 189 F-22 aircrafts. You all know about how much they spent on F-35 program? $1 Trillion+. Fifth generation fighters doesn't mean just being invisible to Radars. It needs to act like Fifth generation right from it's engine having reduced infrared signature, having super cruise capabilities without afterburners, exceptional AESA radar, fully being a part of networked environment, exceptional EW capabilities etc.

Even though US achieved all this, F-22 pilots constantly complained about how they don't have the missiles to take full advantage of F-22 capabilities. You see USAF still had old A2A missiles like AMRAAM. Because of their lesser range F-22 pilots used to launch these missiles at great speed thus increasing their range. Ofcourse now, F-22 doesn't have that problem as they have solid missiles to go with. It took 20 years to mature F-22. Now they are recently have given a contract to upgrade F-22 from it's older subsystems.

Porkis will get momos from Chinese not a Stealth aircraft. It might look like one but not function like 5th generation aircraft. If US with it's vast experience took such long time and financial resources, it is extremely stupid to believe J-31 which is not even inducted into Chinese air force will be exceptional 5th generation aircraft.

Pakistan's economy

Take a look at all the aircrafts PAF operates. Every single one of them is single Engine fighter. The costs of operating even 4.5 generation twin engine jet for PAF is so high they have steered clear away from it. Now add 5th generation stealth fighter which needs extensive maintenance of Radar absorbing material(RAM) coating, engine maintenance, it will break their bank. And you all know the economic situation of Porkistan. They are begging for $1 billion from IMF. You think they can buy and operate a 5th generation aircraft? The cost of operating a F-22 per hour is at $70,000 - $80,000. And with F-35 is at $30,000 - $40,000 per hour. There is a reason why USAF is inducting more F-15 EX these days. Because these things are freaking expensive to operate. I don't even have to tell what will be there development and production cost.

 

[username unkown]

Most of the members here are in panic over possible j 35 with paf first can they still afford j 35 with amount of damage they have taken its unlikely but if they eat grass and able to afford it on imf bailout and soft loan from china (btw porks are still paying for 20-40 j 10 they bought so again unlikely for j 35) if porks get j 35 they would have to compromise on thier air defence system which have sustained heavy damages in iaf strike they can't have both at same time looking at thier budget and they won't be able to stop iaf without proper dense net centric air defence system which requires billions of dollers which simply can't afford .
we didn't spend such resources on our ADS for nothing there is constant chatter of either su 57 or rafale in mmrca
I wouldn't want any western jet with iaf either but we have heavily invested in rafale already with its spare parts , mro facilities, and training and weapon package we will have to go through same thing with f 35 or su 57 would be lengthy process rafale should be our choice if France agrees to deliver rafale before 2030
All of you who are crying for 5 gen import will question iaf when thease f35/su57/rafale isn't delivered before 2030-35 and we start recieveing Tejas mk2 in big numbers by 2028-29 and by 2035 we start recieveing amca then we will be questioing iaf why import 5 gen aircraft or rafale when you are already getting indegenous mini rafale (mk2 ) and amca

 

[liberalredditor]

the priority for the airforce should be that now paf knows its weakness, it will work on it ig, now we have to find its new weakness, maybe drone strike wont work next time on its airbase

and the only way j35 can be countered is to bomb its hangar with sebex2 warhead brahmos