Indian Air Force: News & Discussions (28 Viewers)

[randombully]

What will you do with only 35 rafales in future if u go for su-57/f-35

36 airforce +26 navy = 62 rafales by 2032.

 

[jaijaganath]

36 airforce +26 navy = 62 rafales by 2032.

61 aircrafts are too low bring down entire supply chain here
We will be facing same situation as mirages in future
We need most of the sub-components being assembled here only then we can keep our aircrafts running

 

[randombully]

61 aircrafts are too low bring down entire supply chain here
We will be facing same situation as mirages in future
We need most of the sub-components being assembled here only then we can keep our aircrafts running

Frenchies are not gonna start retiring their rafale before 2045+ and newer f3R+ varients before 2050.
That last 36th rafale with ise is in active service, total 62 rafale( delivered + ordered)

 

[jaijaganath]

Frenchies are not gonna start retiring their rafale before 2045+ and newer f3R+ varients before 2050.
That last 36th rafale with ise is in active service, total 62 rafale( delivered + ordered)

Reason I am saying 35 is bcoz 1 has been crashed

There it makes no sense to induct another new aircraft and again establish logistics and training, most importantly investing money again on foreign platform
When we have already invested a lot on rafales we must stick to it

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Is there no legal recourse to arms deals? If one party effs up, shouldn't there be punitive clauses?!?

We paid for full MRO and spares for a potential intake of upto 5 squadrons for IAF. They have us by the balls, this is a far deeper investment than FGFA.​

What will you do with only 35 rafales in future if u go for su-57/f-35

Buy 2 more squadrons plus replacement for the lost bird. But only after Dassault finishes it's obligations regarding Meteor integration and other misc stuff. The current MRO facility and spares agreements should be capable enough to service these 98 aircrafts. And then stop. Testing waters with Safran regarding engines is fine. I'd still sue for Astra integration. With Gandiva coming up, there is little to no reason to import Meteors.​

 

[liberalredditor]

did the 36 iaf rafale or 26 in rafale deal have any clause regarding integration of our bvraams like astra mk1,2,3 and saaw bombs and rudram series?? coz we payed a really huge amount in the name of india specific enhancements

 

[redpanda]

did the 36 iaf rafale or 26 in rafale deal have any clause regarding integration of our bvraams like astra mk1,2,3 and saaw bombs and rudram series?? coz we payed a really huge amount in the name of india specific enhancements

Those were a separate deal. Not part of ISE upgrades.

 

[liberalredditor]

Those were a separate deal. Not part of ISE upgrades.

so that wasnt india specific enhancements??

what did they charge us for then?? they sucked out the soul from the defence budget like a dementor does, what did we get in the name of enhancements?

 

[redpanda]

so that wasnt india specific enhancements??

what did they charge us for then?? they sucked out the soul from the defence budget like a dementor does, what did we get in the name of enhancements?

ISE means India Specific Enhancement. They charged us for converting those jets to India specific standards. Well that comes with India specific enhancement. Meteor was supposed to integrated with it. @randombully ka comment padhlo Bhai

 

[liberalredditor]

Chalo mu khol hi dete hai.
In rafale deal signed in 2016.
Deliveries began in 2019 and delivery of all 36 rafales was completed in July 2022.
According to the deal 35 out of 36 jets ordered would be rafale f3R standard and last 36th jet( which was also test bed of India specific enhancements for 2+years) will include all India specific enhancements(ISE).


So by July 2022, we had 35 rafale F3R and 1 rafale F3RI(ISE), the plan was then to upgrade those remaining 35 jets to ISE standard over time.

Now that last 36th rafale, can fire meteor, the meteor integration on it was done in 2021 during testing along with integration and testing of meteor on French airforce rafale, which declared the missile "combat-ready" with French airforce on March 4 2021.

So meteor integration on rest of 35 rafales was supposed to done along with their upgrade to ISE standard.

Now that's where the problem rises, there has been delay by French side on upgrading the rest of rafalse to ISE standard, some have been upgraded but lot of fleet is not upgraded to ISE standard even now, even though according to the plan by now most of our rafales should have been upgraded to ISE standard by now


So that's the meteor saga, and also why frenchies were becoming Dhanwan with fuselage local production in india and other things.

sir aapko itna andar ka pata hai, kahin aap hi to rk singh nahi?

 

[randombully]

did the 36 iaf rafale or 26 in rafale deal have any clause regarding integration of our bvraams like astra mk1,2,3 and saaw bombs and rudram series?? coz we payed a really huge amount in the name of india specific enhancements

The thing is those india specific enhancements also included block upgrade.
Rafale f3R ISE are supposed to be at the level of rafale f4/f4.1, just the AI for maintainence found in new F4 standard is missing in F3R ISE.
So our ISE rafale testbed was also a testbed to test new tech for rafale f4/F4.1varient that Safran developed and delivered first F4/f4.1 standard jet to French airforce in March 2023.

So us buying rafale was like some country buying tejas mk1a, while hal promised tejasmk1b capabilities to implement in all once all are delivered,which are still in development, and made the buyer country pay a large percentage for the development of tejas mk1b standard which Indian airforce will also benifit from when they get delivery of tejasmk1b, but later we found many other customers and promised them the now developed tejasmk1b, took orders, causing delays in meeting the order book, and further delay in upgrading the tejasmk1a to tejas mk1b standard to our original foreign customer who paid large percentage of development money for development of tejasmk1b standard.

 

[liberalredditor]

The thing is those india specific enhancements also included block upgrade.
Rafale f3R ISE are supposed to be at the level of rafale f4/f4.1, just the AI for maintainence found in new F4 standard is missing in F3R ISE.
So our ISE rafale testbed was also a testbed to test new tech for rafale f4/F4.1varient that Safran developed and delivered first F4/f4.1 standard jet to French airforce in March 2023.

So us buying rafale was like some country buying tejas mk1a, while hal promised tejasmk1b capabilities to implement in all once all are delivered,which are still in development, and made the buyer country pay a large percentage for the development of tejas mk1b standard which Indian airforce will also benifit from when they get delivery of tejasmk1b, but later we found many other customers and promised them the now developed tejasmk1b, took orders, causing delays in meeting the order book, and further delay in upgrading the tejasmk1a to tejas mk1b standard to our original foreign customer who paid large percentage of development money for development of tejasmk1b standard.

pls spill the tea on mk1b, i thought that was just chatters from the community and that wasnt a thing

all i knew was that 32 mk1 would be later converted to mk1a standards

 

[randombully]

pls spill the tea on mk1b, i thought that was just chatters from the community and that wasnt a thing

It's not a secret or spilling.
Its about The future plans for additional 97 tejas order.
Those 97 tejas if/when ordered will be naturally more advance than 83tejasmk1a ordered, those 97 tejas will directly borrow their avionics from tejas mk2.

 

[liberalredditor]

It's not a secret or spilling.
Its about The future plans for additional 97 tejas order.
Those 97 tejas if/when ordered will be naturally more advance than 83tejasmk1a ordered, those 97 tejas will directly borrow their avionics from tejas mk2.

and tejas mk2 has avionics and subsytems from amca right? so mk1b would be in the leagues of elite fighters?

 

[randombully]

and tejas mk2 has avionics and subsytems from amca right? so mk1b would be in the leagues of elite fighters?

Tejas mk2's avionics will become "base" for amca's more advance avionics.
Tejasmk1b if ordered, will be one of most advance non stealth jet in terms of avionics in 2028-2030, but it needs to be, it's a new jet we don't want our new jet to become outdated avionics wise within 5 years of it entering service.

 

[Azaad]

ISE means India Specific Enhancement. They charged us for converting those jets to India specific standards. Well that comes with India specific enhancement. Meteor was supposed to integrated with it. @randombully ka comment padhlo Bhai

A lot is being made about Meteors not being integrated with the Rafales. I've not come across any statement before Operation Sindoor either from the MoD or IAF accusing Dassault Aviation ( DA) of either going slow or deliberately avoiding integration of Meteors aboard Rafales procured by the IAF.

Neither is there anything from Parliamentary Standing Committees on Defence or the CAG specifically to that effect. What should that tell us ? It's quite obvious whatever happened w.r.t the Meteor integration or rather the "delay" in integration is something which is more of speculation on our part than anything to do with facts .

The time schedule for such an integration has been agreed upon by both parties namely IAF / MoD & DA & it's quite evident both parties are satisfied with the current state of affairs. Moreover the profile of the Meteors being what it is , it's highly unlikely for the IAF to consider usage of it in escort duties for the Rafales to support other FAs in an air strike package .

The Rafales weren't considered for this role in this particular mission on 7th May. Rather we envisaged the Rafales as our primary DPSA . That's precisely what it undertook on 7th May.

The Rafales as we've received them is inadequate for SEAD / DEAD missions given the French used the Hammer for such missions in the past relying on SPECTRA to mask their RCS. They're just about integrating / developing & planning to integrate EW pods / Jammers along with newly developed ARM etc . Now while this may suit the French war fighting doctrine not ours.

This brings us to the crux of the matter. The MKI sation of the Rafales. This was clearly communicated in public by the ACM A.P. Singh when he explicitly said that whoever is selected for the MRFA would be expected to share the source codes. That's the sticking point for DA. It's the crown jewel of the entire French aerospace ecosystem. It's literally the lifeline of their aviation fleets be in the AF or Naval Aviation . It's also the cash cow of DA.

What this means is what happens if there's a leak like in the case of Scorpenes a few years ago ? Even if you reach a satisfactory solution with the French government which I very much doubt ( for this can't be resolved otherwise without the involvement / intervention of the French President's office & the PMO ) , there's the issue of costs. Assuming DA consents to sharing the source codes you could expect them to charge billions of Euros.

With this government being so tight fisted do you actually think GoI will consent to spending those billions ? The alternative is we pay them millions for integration of each such armament like we paid Naval Group recently a 100 million Euros for integration of just one single torpedo.

You resolve this & the Rafale / MRFA / MMRCA 2.0 is sealed.

 

[shade2]

Chalo mu khol hi dete hai.
In rafale deal signed in 2016.
Deliveries began in 2019 and delivery of all 36 rafales was completed in July 2022.
According to the deal 35 out of 36 jets ordered would be rafale f3R standard and last 36th jet( which was also test bed of India specific enhancements for 2+years) will include all India specific enhancements(ISE).


So by July 2022, we had 35 rafale F3R and 1 rafale F3RI(ISE), the plan was then to upgrade those remaining 35 jets to ISE standard over time.

Now that last 36th rafale, can fire meteor, the meteor integration on it was done in 2021 during testing along with integration and testing of meteor on French airforce rafale, which declared the missile "combat-ready" with French airforce on March 4 2021.

So meteor integration on rest of 35 rafales was supposed to done along with their upgrade to ISE standard.

Now that's where the problem rises, there has been delay by French side on upgrading the rest of rafalse to ISE standard, some have been upgraded but lot of fleet is not upgraded to ISE standard even now, even though according to the plan by now most of our rafales should have been upgraded to ISE standard by now


So that's the meteor saga, and also why frenchies were becoming Dhanwan with fuselage local production in india and other things.

Frenchies are trying to get more Rafale orders in exchange of expediting Meteor integration no doubt. And we're not giving up on Astra and SAAW integration either. There were 13 ISEs I believe.

1. Rafael HMDs
2. Souped up SPECTRA and RWR trained with local adversary data
3. High altitude cold start
4. Low band jammers
5. Meteor, SCALP and MICA all three were to be integrated together
6. RAM coating
7. Flight recorder with extended 10 hour endurance
8. Indigenous IFF
9. Longer range IRST
10. IAF standard Comm link and Data link
11. Modified cockpit displays
12. Spares and full MRO
13. Misc ground crew tools and stuff

They want MRFA real bad. They can just conjure up excuses and keep asking behind closed doors for additional orders to expedite upgrades. Us being us are obviously trying to make further negotiations.

Thanks guys for these details.
It makes sense now.


What doesn't make sense is there is loud public RR by retireds, serving, dephense patrakars, babooze etc when HAL delays something including missile testing, when the wine-sipping gora does this there is not a peep

Even though if meteor isn't integrated throughout the fleet even then it makes sense to procure more rafales

Call me french dalal or whatever
I know these scums are, but commit to a platform
Meteor can be integrated through out the fleet other integrations can be done if govt is serious with negotiation, even indigenous weapons too

What will you do with only 35 rafales in future if u go for su-57/f-35
Logistics and supply chain cant be justified for just 35 rafales in future
We have invested a lot in the platform induction we cant let that money go in vain
Infact we got golden opportunity to milk rafales
Being angry with a platform of its manufacturer wont help us in any way

We need to negotiate with them to integrate
>Meteors
>Astra mk2
>Whichever Rudram missile is appropriate as an ARM, they are all 3 different missiles.
On existing Rafales first as a good-will guesture.

Then we can buy more of their planes

 

[liberalredditor]

Thanks guys for these details.
It makes sense now.


What doesn't make sense is there is loud public RR by retireds, serving, dephense patrakars, babooze etc when HAL delays something including missile testing, when the wine-sipping gora does this there is not a peep



We need to negotiate with them to integrate
>Meteors
>Astra mk2
>Whichever Rudram missile is appropriate as an ARM, they are all 3 different missiles.
On existing Rafales first as a good-will guesture.

Then we can buy more of their planes

why only astra mk2? we have paid a huge sum for the 52 rafales, we will integrate all the astra, all rudram, all saaw, all lrgb, even itcm should be integrated, poora paisa wasoolo inse, agar na kare to fir vladimir kumar se su57 ki baat chhed do apne aap macron babua ki g phat ke 4 ho jayegi

 

[shade2]

Neither is there anything from Parliamentary Standing Committees on Defence or the CAG specifically to that effect. What should that tell us ? It's quite obvious whatever happened w.r.t the Meteor integration or rather the "delay" in integration is something which is more of speculation on our part than anything to do with facts .

The time schedule for such an integration has been agreed upon by both parties namely IAF / MoD & DA & it's quite evident both parties are satisfied with the current state of affairs. Moreover the profile of the Meteors being what it is , it's highly unlikely for the IAF to consider usage of it in escort duties for the Rafales to support other FAs in an air strike package .

The Rafales weren't considered for this role in this particular mission on 7th May. Rather we envisaged the Rafales as our primary DPSA . That's precisely what it undertook on 7th May.

Saar, please explain then after May 7th why weren't Rafales again deployed to snipe PAF jets from our airspace with Meteor if it is integrated across the fleet?

I agree that because of Baboon-produced ROE on the first day Rafales had A2G Hammer & SCALP payload but what about the remaining days?

If they didn't use Rafale for A2A later on i'm inclined to believe the randombully answer that not all planes are integrated with Meteor.

It's also why MRFA is delayed, Frenchies dragging their feet over meteor integration, implicitly that we have to buy more Rafale

 

[randombully]

It's also why MRFA is delayed, Frenchies dragging their feet over meteor integration, implicitly that we have to buy more Rafale

Na, delay in fleet wide meteor integration as part of general delay in ISE standard upgrade.

is a different matter from mrfa, buying more jets, demand for integrating domestic weapons.

Frenchies did gave local production of central fuselage of rafale fighter jet without any additional orders or mrfa deal.

*****France's Dassault Aviation and India's Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) have announced a partnership to manufacture Rafale fighter jet fuselages in India, specifically in Hyderabad. This marks the first time Rafale fuselages will be produced outside of France. The facility is expected to be operational by 2028, with a production capacity of up to two complete fuselages per month.
The partnership signifies a significant step in India's "Make in India" initiative and strengthens the country's aerospace manufacturing capabilities. The fuselages will be produced for both the Indian and global markets. French Ambassador to India, Thierry Mathou, hailed the partnership as a milestone in the strategic relationship between the two nations, reinforcing France's support for India's self-reliance goals. *****

, this will also help DA increasing production of rafale to fulfill pending international orders, but they could have also done it within france itself.

You can see it as "good will" gesture for compensating for some other lacking things.