Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Binayak95]

Do you even know what russian have offered ?
At aero india they made it clear su57 can be AMCAnised. They are ready to integrate our own sub-systems in that all ew suit avionics suit.
We can have our eots/irst, das from mk2, virupaksha which has 2400 Gan tr modules or the newer iteration of virupaksha from data patterns with 2700 Gan tr modules. We can have our own mission computer which also reduce the hassle of integration of indigeneous weapons systems. So the issue of electronics can be easily sorted out with our indigeneous avionics suit.
We call bars of su30 mini awacs su57 with hawk I 2700 would be huge capability addition.
now don't demean indigeneous avionics and all.

-unlike rafale whose radar is even smaller than Tejas mk2s which doesn't even have e Gan yet stands no where near this AMCAnised su57.
And let's not forget we would be paying them not less than 250 million for each jet with weapons purchase which can be avoided as we have indigeneous alternatives for them.
And we can integrate any weapon hassle free in su57 unlike rafale. Anyways this is not concern here right now.

They recently offered su57 roll out from existing Nashik with few modifications in assembly line.
So it much better deal now if we consider there recent offers. And make much more sense than expensive rafale. Still it won't cost 250 Million per piece.
Su57 might not be good at stealth but it's much better than rafale. It's might have higher ir signature with current Al41 engine too.

if they're ready to this extend we can try our indigeneous RAS/RAM on it to boost stealth.

This AMCAnised su57 would atleast hold something against j20 unlike expensive rafale which can't keep up against j20.

Overall AMCAnised su57 would be much much better choice than rafale.
What happened to integration of astra mk1 ?

the Russians have promised, have they?

What kind of promise is this?

the we will give TOT for brahmos but you import our seekers and engines and we will block titanium exports for the body if you go for domestic engines and seeker kind?

and only after paying 450 million USD will we reluctantly certify your seekers and engines? oh, btw we will block your export sales to Phillipines and Indonesia too, while selling them the entirely unrelated Oniks? that kind of promise?

OR

is it the please buy T90s and save our tank industry - and yes we will give TOT. oh oops, the tot documents are in russian please pay for natasha to be your pvt translator as well.
Whats that? armour material composition, no we dont teach that to brownskins!

How dare you use kanchan for T90 - or try to use Arjun turrets on T72 hulls. you can only buy T72 hulls from us? Also heres the technology for the engines, but to make it yourself you have to first buy 248 million dollars of CKDs otherwise no more spares. This kind of promise?

OR

is it the heres a wunderbar Kashtan CIWS for free with your Talwars. oh btw its a POS that will rust in 2 weeks of operation in IOR conditions which we knew but haha, jokes on you Indians? and no you cant replace it with barak 1 and AK630 CIWS else we will block spares?

OR

heres a wonderful aircraft carrier that has chinese source firebricks that we know will collapse under high speed trials because the same happened with the kuznetsov?

and btw the money you paid for it actually went to pay salaries of the workers at the shipyard you see so pay 2 billion dollars more.

OR

oh look the Su30MKI is such a wonderful plane that we will:

- refuse to share Titanium monocrystalline manufacturing tech
- when HAL figures it out anyway, throw a hissy fit and refuse titanium supply till the PM intervened with Putin
- refuse to give russian source code for missiles and bus integration (still do btw) and HAL had to pay israelis for their jugaadu solution
- charge 200000 rupees for special spanners that use non standard fasteners and nuts that unnecessarily jack up the prices

OR

- deliberately sell T90s that have older autoloaders that cannot accept modern long APFSDS rounds that we are using in our T90s

- refuse to certify Indian and israeli AFPSDS round integration into Russian jackets.



These are the wonderful russian promises over the last many years. believe you me i have another 15 off the top of my head that i can state here.

From sabotaging Akash to S400 issues, to problems with Chakra II to AK203, to faulty batteries in Kilos.

The Russians make DCNS look like virgin nuns.

 

[randombully]

the Russians have promised, have they?

What kind of promise is this?

the we will give TOT for brahmos but you import our seekers and engines and we will block titanium exports for the body if you go for domestic engines and seeker kind?

and only after paying 450 million USD will we reluctantly certify your seekers and engines? oh, btw we will block your export sales to Phillipines and Indonesia too, while selling them the entirely unrelated Oniks? that kind of promise?

OR

is it the please buy T90s and save our tank industry - and yes we will give TOT. oh oops, the tot documents are in russian please pay for natasha to be your pvt translator as well.
Whats that? armour material composition, no we dont teach that to brownskins!

How dare you use kanchan for T90 - or try to use Arjun turrets on T72 hulls. you can only buy T72 hulls from us? Also heres the technology for the engines, but to make it yourself you have to first buy 248 million dollars of CKDs otherwise no more spares. This kind of promise?

OR

is it the heres a wunderbar Kashtan CIWS for free with your Talwars. oh btw its a POS that will rust in 2 weeks of operation in IOR conditions which we knew but haha, jokes on you Indians? and no you cant replace it with barak 1 and AK630 CIWS else we will block spares?

OR

heres a wonderful aircraft carrier that has chinese source firebricks that we know will collapse under high speed trials because the same happened with the kuznetsov?

and btw the money you paid for it actually went to pay salaries of the workers at the shipyard you see so pay 2 billion dollars more.

OR

oh look the Su30MKI is such a wonderful plane that we will:

- refuse to share Titanium monocrystalline manufacturing tech
- when HAL figures it out anyway, throw a hissy fit and refuse titanium supply till the PM intervened with Putin
- refuse to give russian source code for missiles and bus integration (still do btw) and HAL had to pay israelis for their jugaadu solution
- charge 200000 rupees for special spanners that use non standard fasteners and nuts that unnecessarily jack up the prices

OR

- deliberately sell T90s that have older autoloaders that cannot accept modern long APFSDS rounds that we are using in our T90s

- refuse to certify Indian and israeli AFPSDS round integration into Russian jackets.



These are the wonderful russian promises over the last many years. believe you me i have another 15 off the top of my head that i can state here.

From sabotaging Akash to S400 issues, to problems with Chakra II to AK203, to faulty batteries in Kilos.

The Russians make DCNS look like virgin nuns.

Well its understandable, with all these experiences.
But 1, france and US are not gonna be more "agreeable to tot" than Russians, they will be worse in this aspect.
2, like France also made us pay to integrate indian weapons in indian rafale that india "owns", and did not fulfill it's offset clause, because that's a key technology they don't wanna share with a third world country.
So in tot etc related field, no other country will be "better" than russian.
Like in brahmos, seeker and engine was not given, but if it were Amriki misile we would only be making its airframe, oh yeah, not making "assembling ready made kits" in that era, they would also put export restrictions.
And unlike talks with putin and modi when supply was restarted, again if it was talks with US president, even then it would not be solved.
That's a guarantee.
Realtive to both france and USA, ruskies are willing to share more tot.


"Also heres the technology for the engines, but to make it yourself you have to first buy 248 million dollars of CKDs otherwise no more spares. This kind of promise?"
that's actually a pretty standard practice for any company.

and only after paying 450 million USD will we reluctantly certify your seekers and engines? oh, btw we will block your export sales to Phillipines and Indonesia too, while selling them the entirely unrelated Oniks? that kind of promise?

The fact they certified our own seeker and "engine" itself is better than French and Americans.
And again it's a standard industry practice to put export restrictions on tot system to protect your market shares

It weird how you hate Russians for that, but other countries in these aspects will be even more stringent.

Like France will not allow us to export astra missiles to other countries who have rafales, even when we paid them to put astra on our rafales.

charge 200000 rupees for special spanners that use non standard fasteners and nuts that unnecessarily jack up the prices

Again, I'm not gonna say it's a good practice, but man your gonna hate dealing with americans and french even more if you hate these practice of unnecessary jacking up the price.

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1gg7hyd/boeing_allegedly_overcharged_the_military_8000/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
They are doing it to fasteners and nuts, Boeing is doing it to fucking soap dispensers.



The only thing that seems credible in your argument of not liking russians( relative to west)
is the quality and tech, especially of post soviet 1990-2010 era quality and tech of ruskies.
Now things have improved a lot in these aspects, still behind US and even Europe in some key areas like jet engines.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

the Russians have promised, have they?

What kind of promise is this?

the we will give TOT for brahmos but you import our seekers and engines and we will block titanium exports for the body if you go for domestic engines and seeker kind?

and only after paying 450 million USD will we reluctantly certify your seekers and engines? oh, btw we will block your export sales to Phillipines and Indonesia too, while selling them the entirely unrelated Oniks? that kind of promise?

OR

is it the please buy T90s and save our tank industry - and yes we will give TOT. oh oops, the tot documents are in russian please pay for natasha to be your pvt translator as well.
Whats that? armour material composition, no we dont teach that to brownskins!

How dare you use kanchan for T90 - or try to use Arjun turrets on T72 hulls. you can only buy T72 hulls from us? Also heres the technology for the engines, but to make it yourself you have to first buy 248 million dollars of CKDs otherwise no more spares. This kind of promise?

OR

is it the heres a wunderbar Kashtan CIWS for free with your Talwars. oh btw its a POS that will rust in 2 weeks of operation in IOR conditions which we knew but haha, jokes on you Indians? and no you cant replace it with barak 1 and AK630 CIWS else we will block spares?

OR

heres a wonderful aircraft carrier that has chinese source firebricks that we know will collapse under high speed trials because the same happened with the kuznetsov?

and btw the money you paid for it actually went to pay salaries of the workers at the shipyard you see so pay 2 billion dollars more.

OR

oh look the Su30MKI is such a wonderful plane that we will:

- refuse to share Titanium monocrystalline manufacturing tech
- when HAL figures it out anyway, throw a hissy fit and refuse titanium supply till the PM intervened with Putin
- refuse to give russian source code for missiles and bus integration (still do btw) and HAL had to pay israelis for their jugaadu solution
- charge 200000 rupees for special spanners that use non standard fasteners and nuts that unnecessarily jack up the prices

OR

- deliberately sell T90s that have older autoloaders that cannot accept modern long APFSDS rounds that we are using in our T90s

- refuse to certify Indian and israeli AFPSDS round integration into Russian jackets.



These are the wonderful russian promises over the last many years. believe you me i have another 15 off the top of my head that i can state here.

From sabotaging Akash to S400 issues, to problems with Chakra II to AK203, to faulty batteries in Kilos.

The Russians make DCNS look like virgin nuns.

You're indeed right.

But things have changed since then back then we were not in the position of advantage today we are in. They are in desperation we can exploit to our advantage with keeping respective conditions to be met first or either refuse to order. I know I'm being optimistic but even rafale walas are sucking out our blood. Americans & french are much worse than Russians when it comes to tot.
Tbh we have to fight j20 No way rafale can protect our borders from j20. It just can't. That's why I'm in support of AMCAnised su57.
The AMCAnised su57 is much ahead of rafale at less cost.
They are desperate to sell. They need orders Unless and until our wishlist is fulfilled we shouldn't order it. Even if single thing is refused we should refuse to order. I don't think now uac can take us for granted.
What wrong in this approach ??
We need to deal with them. As I said rafale can't secure our air space against j20 & let's not talks abt dense iads in Tibet.
I dont think it will cost us much upgrading assembly lines as they said few changes will be required. If it's affordable then we must go for it.

From sabotaging Akash to S400 issues

Btw it would be really great if you put some effort in elaborating this.

 

[AbRaj]

Situations change.
Many things not in our control.

F404 engine delay,
f414 deal stuck.
Amca not coming before 2035.
Chinks are churning out 100+ j20 per year.
News of pak interested in 5th gen.
Falling squardons.

Brother , this is not how powerful countries plan their future. Whole system is rotten

 

[randombully]

Brother , this is not how powerful countries plan their future. Whole system is rotten

Yeah, I'm aware of it.
What solution do you propose?
That can be alternative to the solution proposed by that recent meeting to address, short term, medium term and long term problems of iaf? In the current situation.

We don't live an ideal world.
We have to navigate the current shitshow we have.

As for powerful.
We are only powerful in population and 5th in economy by gdp and 3rd by ppp.
We are not an powerful country with completely industrialized civilian and military sector which is independent and technologically leading.
We are doing fuckin catchup and if we continue to do it while not stopping due to any hurdles( many hurdles in past, many right now in present, many about to come in future) we can become that country probably by 2045-50.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

wikipedia says only 30 su-57 build till now, 10 of which are prototypes. maybe not upto date

from this article

Sukhoi-57: UAC Misses 2024 Production Target For Felons; Russian Air Force Gets New Batch Of Su-57 Stealth Fighters

The United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) announced on September 12 in a Telegram post that it had handed over a batch of new Su-57 and Su-35S aircraft to the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS). The UAC post didn’t specify the number of Su-57 fighters delivered. However, an accompanying video showed two...

www.eurasiantimes.com

says only 2 delivered in 2024 against order of 24 .

Year: Su-57 Delivered

• 2020 1
• 2021 3
• 2022 6
• 2023 12
  
  
  su-57mki honestly gonna be another fail train for IAF.

In 2024 there target was to deliver 20 su57s.
However it's classified how many su57s were delivered what we know is they delivered su57s in 3 batches how much was the batch size we dont know. But it should be around 15-20.
They will be delivering first Algerian su57 by the end of 2025.
In 2025 they will atleast produce 20-25

 

[randombully]

In 2025 they will atleast produce 20-25

More like 5-6.
The production line will stay open with slow rate due to Algerian orders.
Russian vks now wants all it's su57 to come with al51, as final testing has been done and production lines are being set up.
But it can take 1+ years to set up production line for engine and initial production will be slow.
So to keep rest of production line for su57 open, till production of al51 starts, Algerian orders for 14 su57 we're helpful.

 

[AbRaj]

again?
5th gens are based on continous upgrade philosophy su57, j20, f35 will receive continous upgrades.
So if we go su30mki way churn out same standards for 2 decades, su57 will get outdated sensors wise compared to other stealth jets, even by 2035.

But "immediate" upgrades, why?
What's your source? Explanation?
Do you even know what systems and sensors j20 and su57 have?

I dont want to go into philosophy and sh**t but deep down everybody knows( based on available open source data ) that Su57 is not upto the mark even at present.

 

[randombully]

I dont want to go into philosophy and sh**t but deep down everybody knows( based on available open source data ) that Su57 is not upto the mark even at present.

Upto mark compared to what?
F35?
J20?
Rafale?
And that "everybody" argument is stupid.
Majority of people are wrong by large margin in subjects they Don't even have surface knowledge about.
That available open source data you are most likely referring to is comments by people on internet.


So yeah, tell me the details of why it's not upto mark.

Lets use rafales as benchmark
And tell me what it lacks.

 

[AbRaj]

Upto mark compared to what?
F35?
J20?
Rafale?
And that "everybody" argument is stupid.
Majority of people are wrong by large margin in subjects they Don't even have surface knowledge about.
That available open source data you are most likely referring to is comments by people on internet.


So yeah, tell me the details of why it's not upto mark.

Lets use rafales as benchmark
And tell me what it lacks.

Using NonLO FA as a benchmark to compare FGFA and higher standards is flawed to begin with ?
Benchmark should be oldest FGFA ie F22 or at least commercially available FGFA ie F35

 

[RocketMan]

the Russians have promised, have they?

What kind of promise is this?

the we will give TOT for brahmos but you import our seekers and engines and we will block titanium exports for the body if you go for domestic engines and seeker kind?

and only after paying 450 million USD will we reluctantly certify your seekers and engines? oh, btw we will block your export sales to Phillipines and Indonesia too, while selling them the entirely unrelated Oniks? that kind of promise?

OR

is it the please buy T90s and save our tank industry - and yes we will give TOT. oh oops, the tot documents are in russian please pay for natasha to be your pvt translator as well.
Whats that? armour material composition, no we dont teach that to brownskins!

How dare you use kanchan for T90 - or try to use Arjun turrets on T72 hulls. you can only buy T72 hulls from us? Also heres the technology for the engines, but to make it yourself you have to first buy 248 million dollars of CKDs otherwise no more spares. This kind of promise?

OR

is it the heres a wunderbar Kashtan CIWS for free with your Talwars. oh btw its a POS that will rust in 2 weeks of operation in IOR conditions which we knew but haha, jokes on you Indians? and no you cant replace it with barak 1 and AK630 CIWS else we will block spares?

OR

heres a wonderful aircraft carrier that has chinese source firebricks that we know will collapse under high speed trials because the same happened with the kuznetsov?

and btw the money you paid for it actually went to pay salaries of the workers at the shipyard you see so pay 2 billion dollars more.

OR

oh look the Su30MKI is such a wonderful plane that we will:

- refuse to share Titanium monocrystalline manufacturing tech
- when HAL figures it out anyway, throw a hissy fit and refuse titanium supply till the PM intervened with Putin
- refuse to give russian source code for missiles and bus integration (still do btw) and HAL had to pay israelis for their jugaadu solution
- charge 200000 rupees for special spanners that use non standard fasteners and nuts that unnecessarily jack up the prices

OR

- deliberately sell T90s that have older autoloaders that cannot accept modern long APFSDS rounds that we are using in our T90s

- refuse to certify Indian and israeli AFPSDS round integration into Russian jackets.



These are the wonderful russian promises over the last many years. believe you me i have another 15 off the top of my head that i can state here.

From sabotaging Akash to S400 issues, to problems with Chakra II to AK203, to faulty batteries in Kilos.

The Russians make DCNS look like virgin nuns.

At least they don't put kill switch like Americans . Also you need an OTP from US to use the jet everyday LoL .

 

[RocketMan]

Indian MoD Opens Door for Russia in AMCA Engine Development – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Su 57 mki with indian weapons & sensor package could be excellent option while we bulk up numbers with Tejas/ Mk II/ AMCA . 60 squadrons is a pipe dream , it'd be a miracle if we even have 20 squadrons by 2030.

 

[randombully]

Using NonLO FA as a benchmark to compare FGFA and higher standards is flawed to begin with ?
Benchmark should be oldest FGFA ie F22 or at least commercially available FGFA ie F35

Using NonLO FA as a benchmark to compare FGFA and higher standards is flawed to begin with ?
Benchmark should be oldest FGFA ie F22 or at least commercially available FGFA ie F35

nice point *BUT* in mrfa it's between rafale and su57.
We aren't getting f35, as while best option, it will come with amriki strings and the so called kill switch.

Tho, if you wanna quick and simple comparison between 5th gen.
F22<Su57<j20<f35.
Why f22 last? Its the most outdated 5th gen, no irst/eots( massive disadvantage), no Das etc.
Like one f35 maintainer Said, the difference between 2020+ f35 and mid2010s f35s feels like difference between f15C/D(su30mki standard) and latest f15EX, and f22 is even older.
So yeah russia did successfully made " raptor killer" in the end, but US now has f35 lightning II, the most stealthy( yeah f35 is more stealthy than f22, unlike the false propaganda) and most advance fighter in the world.
Infact if f22 is used as a bench mark of 5th gen then it's not wrong to call f35 and even j20 as 5.5+ gen.
Rafale f4 for example is more advanced even than f22 later blocks( except stealth).

 

[ArjunMK1A]

which files are being held up by mod babus ?

DRDO P-76 submarine project.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Also the so called Offset thing is always a scam from Every country.

Russians.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/lockheed-offsets-mock-mod-norms-110121000031_1.html?utm_source=chatgpt.com

French with Scorpene. (ToT on paper)

 

[Bleh]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1899487672697081961?t=1uvoCP8KSwnvAkDZkWhSYw&s=19

View: https://x.com/RishiChatt/status/1899811150390563203

Also opinion poll:

With the level of tech already ready for AMCA & MWF, shouldn't we roll out a downgraded AMCA ASAP, if possible with MWF?... Yes, it won't be 5th Gen but still a twin-F414 fighter with IWB & some of the stealth subsystems that are already here.

Sure it'll use IRST, but it's still be better than every jet in IAF at 2030.

 

[johny_baba]

perhaps the best way to make up some squadron numbers is to get desi Mig-21-esque fighter jet, means a conventional design jet made of conventional alloy with modern avionics, electronics
HAL's HLFT-42 design is sufficient for that, just fork that design for RD-33MK and mass manufacture it till we get other designs like Tejas MK2, AMCA, TEDBF and all ready

 

[Bleh]

perhaps the best way to make up some squadron numbers is to get desi Mig-21-esque fighter jet, means a conventional design jet made of conventional alloy with modern avionics, electronics
HAL's HLFT-42 design is sufficient for that, just fork that design for RD-33MK and mass manufacture it till we get other designs like Tejas MK2, AMCA, TEDBF and all ready

We'll have:
1. Optionally manned Mig-21, Kiran etc.
2. Unmanned wingmans
3. Drones like Ghatak
4. Manned Ghatak idea might take off (bombers)
5. Maybe LIFT platform instead of Hawk-i
6. Actual fighter jets.

Counting all 60 sqn. of 1080 are doable

 

[randombully]

perhaps the best way to make up some squadron numbers is to get desi Mig-21-esque fighter jet, means a conventional design jet made of conventional alloy with modern avionics, electronics
HAL's HLFT-42 design is sufficient for that, just fork that design for RD-33MK and mass manufacture it till we get other designs like Tejas MK2, AMCA, TEDBF and all ready

Hlft 42 is larger than tejas mk2, and with metal- even heavier.
Will need al31/al41 class engine for it.

But if we're going for this.
Then much better to develop another varient of tejasmk2 powered by a non US engine of same category as f414 or slightly bigger.

Tho both with not happen.

 

[johny_baba]

perhaps the best way to make up some squadron numbers is to get desi Mig-21-esque fighter jet, means a conventional design jet made of conventional alloy with modern avionics, electronics
HAL's HLFT-42 design is sufficient for that, just fork that design for RD-33MK and mass manufacture it till we get other designs like Tejas MK2, AMCA, TEDBF and all ready

there's another factor, like a slight hunch, cue 'economy' threads and discussions

say, if Mr. Trump's tariff gambling drags them down (and with them, us and everyone heavily dependent on globalised form of economies too)...at certain critical point in future can we, like, 'arm twist' them for big orders with proper offers on tech sharing if not outright ToT regd engine tech?

in other words, how's our ability to coerce economically struggling tech giants to give us what we want for some monies?