Indian Army Artillery Programme

[VictorDelta4]

 

[jaijaganath]

View attachment 15795
View attachment 15796

wtf!
How will they conclude the deal before end of this financial year if the price negotiation have not started yet

 

[ezsasa]

few points that stand out​

- There is no such thing as FARP, but there is an artillery profile 2017 written in around 2008.​

- there is no scoot in mountains. only dig in and shoot.
- terrain specific arty

for the rest of the points, might as well watch the full video.
=====

ATAGS, ATHOS or Mounted gun systems? Understand India’s artillery plan & where it's headed​

View: https://youtu.be/PjRciy-GVLM

 

[jaijaganath]

few points that stand out​

- There is no such thing as FARP, but there is an artillery profile 2017 written in around 2008.​

- there is no scoot in mountains. only dig in and shoot.
- terrain specific arty

for the rest of the points, might as well watch the full video.
=====

ATAGS, ATHOS or Mounted gun systems? Understand India’s artillery plan & where it's headed​

View: https://youtu.be/PjRciy-GVLM

Everything is fine but last I heard in saurav jha's session that atags performed and completed all trails in mountainous regions meeting all the requirements given by army but here he is saying atags can't perform i.e can't be transported easily on the roads of NE and ladakh frontier

 

[ezsasa]

Everything is fine but last I heard in saurav jha's session that atags performed and completed all trails in mountainous regions meeting all the requirements given by army but here he is saying atags can't perform i.e can't be transported easily on the roads of NE and ladakh frontier

since ATAGS is being ordered, we have to assume IA arty has figured it out the S.O.Ps.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

since ATAGS is being ordered, we have to assume IA arty has figured it out the S.O.Ps.

If they were really sanguine, they would've ordered more than 307. If scooting is not an option to begin with since they'll dig into reverse slopes, the 18 tons of the ATAGS shouldn't matter. The 3 ton shedding bit is probably to delay the program even further for no reason other than attempting to get some ATHOS in through the smokescreen of "emergency procurement".


High effort infographic

 

[Cyclops]

If they were really sanguine, they would've ordered more than 307. If scooting is not an option to begin with since they'll dig into reverse slopes, the 18 tons of the ATAGS shouldn't matter. The 3 ton shedding bit is probably to delay the program even further for no reason other than attempting to get some ATHOS in through the smokescreen of "emergency procurement".

View attachment 16046
High effort infographic

Why would they do that?

Ordering more would mean stabilising the production line for more economies of scale and faster upgrades - ALL WITHIN INDIA, safe from sanctions and foreign production issues due to foreign wars or whatever.

Why would anyone think of doing something so sensible?

 

[Azaad]

few points that stand out​

- There is no such thing as FARP, but there is an artillery profile 2017 written in around 2008.​

- there is no scoot in mountains. only dig in and shoot.
- terrain specific arty

for the rest of the points, might as well watch the full video.
=====

ATAGS, ATHOS or Mounted gun systems? Understand India’s artillery plan & where it's headed​

View: https://youtu.be/PjRciy-GVLM

since ATAGS is being ordered, we have to assume IA arty has figured it out the S.O.Ps.

View: https://twitter.com/palepurshankar/status/1859845780498153868?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/1859873298638675988?s=19

 

[ArjunMK1A]

China Artillery Component from Wiki.

122 mm SPH - 2090 pieces in various configurations. (Truck mounted, Wheel mounted, track mounted)
152 mm SPH - 150
155 mm SPH - 950
203 mm SPH - 300 (Garbage tier maybe as per wiki)

Towed Artillery
Total of 900 with unknown quantity of 155mm Artillery based on GHN-45.


Pakistan Artillery Component Wiki.

155mm SPH - 602 (US M109 and Chinese PCL-191)
203mm SPH - 60

Towed Artillery

155 mm - 292
130 mm - 410
122 mm -570
105 mm - 329
Total - 1601

Meanwhile Indian Army

155mm SPH -100

Towed

155mm - 849 Approx
130mm - 500-600 Approx
105mm - 2400 Approx.

We are having approx 3849 towed pieces. We are very bad in SPH sections lol.

 

[Blood+]

Meanwhile Indian Army

155mm SPH -100

Towed

155mm - 849 Approx
130mm - 500-600 Approx
105mm - 2400 Approx.

We are having approx 3849 towed pieces. We are very bad in SPH sections lol.

Number of towed 130mm pieces (M-46) should be at around 900-1000, judging by the number of conversions (~180 from Soltam + ~36 Sharang + a few dozen M-46 catapult), which would leave a balance of ~950 towed pieces.

 

[Vishnugupt]

The reputation of UN Generals are biting dust now days. Everywhere they are being ridiculed in worse possible manner.

This is the fate one meet when one feel offended against everything even slightly critical.

 

[username unkown]

The reputation of UN Generals are biting dust now days. Everywhere they are being ridiculed in worse possible manner.

This is the fate one meet when one feel offended against everything even slightly critical.

You know if un gernals , babus and top leadership were slightly had focused on issues rather than kick backs we would have been completely different situation right now

 

[Bleh]

This entire cluster fuck needs to sorted out ASAP.
Our current Armoury is seriously outdated and needs a full replacement.

Honestly IMO we need to let go, of our outdated guns like IFG, Bofors Gun, Dhanush, Sarang and M46 because just 3 Calibre types (155mm/52 Cal, 155mm/39 Cal, 105mm/37 Cal) and 6 guns can solve all of our artillery problems.

Name	Calibre	Use	Comparable Systems
ATAGS	155mm/52 Cal	Standard Artillery Support
MGS	155mm/52 Cal	High Mobility Shoot & Scoot Mounted Artillery Support (For Plains)	PCL 181
K9 Vajra (indigenous Alternative When ?)	155mm/52 Cal	Self propelled Shoot & Scoot Howitzer (For difficult terrain)	PLZ-05
MARG 155-BR	155mm/39 Cal	High Mobility, Shoot & scoot Mounted Artillery Support in Mountainous Regions	PCL 161
ULH	155mm/39 Cal	Ultra Light Howitzer for fast Air transport and Air drops (mainly mountainous regions)	M777
Garuda 105	105mm/37 Cal	High Mobility Field Gun (can even do the work of 120mm mortars)	Indian Field Gun

M-46 (upgraded) Dhanush, Bofors 155 hi to hy... Rest are awaiting replacement

 

[shade2]

Meanwhile Indian Army

155mm SPH -100

Why do the esteemed UN genrols not buy more K9 Vajra in large quantities? after all it is also import even though some screwdrivergiri is done?

They've only ordered an additional 100?

 

[Azaad]

View: https://twitter.com/palepurshankar/status/1859845780498153868?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/1859873298638675988?s=19

View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1859535262638014634?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1859534384476660217?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1859535907151553023?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1849520653050970420?s=19

Now whom do we believe ?

 

[Hawkeye]

View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1859535262638014634?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1859534384476660217?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1859535907151553023?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1849520653050970420?s=19

Now whom do we believe ?

Well, army has a reputation of RFP after RFP but no orders for decades. And then also they would rather have 6 apaches for 900+million dollars but according to them, they see no problem here in 2024

View: https://x.com/westerncomd_IA/status/1859527574554058824

So, my money is off the bet whatever Army guys have to say. Maybe mass RE EDUCATION of army afsars is needed to make their heart bleed true indigenous.


This shown here is what majority of IA looks like. And the most funny thing is they have specifically bought few equipments which are substandard as well but modern looking for abhyas with foreign armies.

Afaik army training is mostly stuck in WW2 like weapons handling skills, first hand experience, seen a few times. See any video of exercise with foreign forces and you'll see that NATO or like situationship has greatly benefitted countries in terms of training methods advancement. Whether it is Australia, EU countries or Korean, Japan.

 

[Yuyutsu]

View: https://twitter.com/palepurshankar/status/1859845780498153868?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/1859873298638675988?s=19

China has aksai china, which will provide them with a large, relatively flat area to maneuver troops and equipment, unlike the mountainous terrain and probably population on the Indian side of the LAC which is hard for any war situation . whereas china have mbrl and artillery of larger ranges than us upto 300 km
(at least) whereas india does'nt have one that goes even upto 100 , they can comfortably sit and target us from hundreds of miles away while we won't even damage their first line of defense with current guns. and yet we are using every possible way to delay anything good coming to artillery , god knows why.

 

[Blood+]

China has aksai china, which will provide them with a large, relatively flat area to maneuver troops and equipment,

Yeah, but on the flip side, they won't have anywhere to hide, either!! At least, in our case, we can make use of the reverse slopes on our side at most of the places.

unlike the mountainous terrain and probably population on the Indian side of the LAC which is hard for any war situation .

Yeah, that's why maintaining proper camouflage procedures become of utmost importance.

whereas china have mbrl and artillery of larger ranges than us upto 300 km

That holds true only for the rocket artillery and not tube artillery, but there is a huge caveat. You see, the PLA-GF combined arms light brigades that we will be facing are equipped with copies of D-30 and BM-21 Grad MLRS systems (both 122 mm), numbering 27 pieces of D-30s (divided in 3 batteries of 9 each) and 9 BM-21s in total, organized into an artillery battalion per combined arm brigade. These 2 will be the most common and numerous type of threats our units will be facing.

The heavier 155mm howitzers and MLRS systems (300mm and above) are reserved for their group armies and are won't be available in very high numbers in the near term (in the Ladakh sector that is).

The most common among these are the PHL-03 300mm MLRS systems (copy of BM-30 Smerch) with a maximum range of 130 kms. The 300 km ranged ones and above you speak of (King Dragon and Fire Dragon series) are actually tactical ballistic missiles, analogues to ATACMS and Iskander M missiles and therefore, can only be used sparingly, with their use being reserved for targets of more strategic natures.


Meanwhile, in the Indian Army, the infantry brigades generally do not have an integral artillery component as the artillery is usually concentrated in an artillery brigade at the divisional level.

ORBAT of a typical artillery brigade is as follows -
1-2 X Medium regiment/s (155mm or 130 mm howitzers with 18-20 guns per regiment)
2-3 X Field Regiments (105mm howitzers)
1-2 X Heavy Mortar Regiment/s (120mm mortars)

All of these systems (except the mortars of course) outrange their brigade artillery.

At any rate, all the field regiments are currently being converted to medium regiments with M777 systems (more to be replaced by one of the Indian made light 155mm howitzers), albeit at a slower than desirable, but that's typical of any Indian organization. The medium regiments too are being upgraded with the legacy FH-77B L/39 systems being replaced with Dhanush and M-46 130mm are with Soltam/ OFB Sharang L/45 systems, further increasing their range and lethality while also simplying logistics.

Therefore, at the brigade level at least, the PLA-GF does not outgun their Indian counterparts.

(at least) whereas india does'nt have one that goes even upto 100 ,

True and that IS an area of concern, albeit one that could be solved comparatively easily if the stakeholders would want.

they can comfortably sit and target us from hundreds of miles away while we won't even damage their first line of defense with current guns.

and yet we are using every possible way to delay anything good coming to artillery , god knows why.

Nah, no need to go that far above, everyone and their grand ma knows at this point.

 

[Hari Sud]

Yeah, but on the flip side, they won't have anywhere to hide, either!! At least, in our case, we can make use of the reverse slopes on our side at most of the places.

Yeah, that's why maintaining proper camouflage procedures become of utmost importance.

That holds true only for the rocket artillery and not tube artillery, but there is a huge caveat. You see, the PLA-GF combined arms light brigades that we will be facing are equipped with copies of D-30 and BM-21 Grad MLRS systems (both 122 mm), numbering 27 pieces of D-30s (divided in 3 batteries of 9 each) and 9 BM-21s in total, organized into an artillery battalion per combined arm brigade. These 2 will be the most common and numerous type of threats our units will be facing.

The heavier 155mm howitzers and MLRS systems (300mm and above) are reserved for their group armies and are won't be available in very high numbers in the near term (in the Ladakh sector that is).

The most common among these are the PHL-03 300mm MLRS systems (copy of BM-30 Smerch) with a maximum range of 130 kms. The 300 km ranged ones and above you speak of (King Dragon and Fire Dragon series) are actually tactical ballistic missiles, analogues to ATACMS and Iskander M missiles and therefore, can only be used sparingly, with their use being reserved for targets of more strategic natures.


Meanwhile, in the Indian Army, the infantry brigades generally do not have an integral artillery component as the artillery is usually concentrated in an artillery brigade at the divisional level.

ORBAT of a typical artillery brigade is as follows -
1-2 X Medium regiment/s (155mm or 130 mm howitzers with 18-20 guns per regiment)
2-3 X Field Regiments (105mm howitzers)
1-2 X Heavy Mortar Regiment/s (120mm mortars)

All of these systems (except the mortars of course) outrange their brigade artillery.

At any rate, all the field regiments are currently being converted to medium regiments with M777 systems (more to be replaced by one of the Indian made light 155mm howitzers), albeit at a slower than desirable, but that's typical of any Indian organization. The medium regiments too are being upgraded with the legacy FH-77B L/39 systems being replaced with Dhanush and M-46 130mm are with Soltam/ OFB Sharang L/45 systems, further increasing their range and lethality while also simplying logistics.

Therefore, at the brigade level at least, the PLA-GF does not outgun their Indian counterparts.

True and that IS an area of concern, albeit one that could be solved comparatively easily if the stakeholders would want.

Nah, no need to go that far above, everyone and their grand ma knows at this point.

 

[Azaad]

View: https://twitter.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/1860594338138587235?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/1860709354556600564?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/1860717892540452951?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/1860733039329816755?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/1860738082599002479?s=19

I think the above conversation makes clear that these howitzers be it ATAGS or any other alternative were never meant for the mountains to begin with . That was because before 2017 & especially before 2020 our principal focus was always Paxtan.

To add to the mess no existing artillery OEM Indian ( they didn't exist 2 decades ago unless you want to include DPSUs) or foreign had a 1 size fits all for the plains deserts & mountains. The objective then was to get a desi company to start out at any cost.

Once the program for Dhanush & ATAGS kicked off with OFB & DRDO with their DCPP respectively , it was realised somewhere in between that they needed something for the mountains as well. This would be somewhere in the latter half of the 2000s . Hence M-777 in limited nos.

However once it became apparent that China's now our principal adversary , came the mad rush to rewrite fresh SQRs & limit the weight of the TGS to < 15 tons. That's got us to where we are today.

If anyone has a better explanation , I'm all ears.