Indian Economy

[Azaad]

This has been tried mutliple times already without any success. US tried to break Indian monopoly during 2000s, 2010s and even after covid but failed every time:

There was Philippines scare during 2008-12, then came Vietnam Scare during 2015-18 era, some time they tried to bring IT to Singapore and to Offshore Delivery centers in Canada and Mexico. They failed every time.

We are simply too big to fail now.​

There's a vital difference. Following in the lead of Indian IT services companies , a lot of foreign IT services cos like IBM , Capgemini etc joined the bandwagon. Yes they did all their recruiting here & in practically all such cases based their Global Centres of Excellence here

The larger point being unlike the Chinese in mfg we haven't managed to outmaneuver these cos .

 

[SKC]

There's a vital difference. Following in the lead of Indian IT services companies , a lot of foreign IT services cos like IBM , Capgemini etc joined the bandwagon. Yes they did all their recruiting here & in practically all such cases based their Global Centres of Excellence here

The larger point being unlike the Chinese in mfg we haven't managed to outmaneuver these cos .

I don't think we need to outmaneuver these companies. These are basically Indian IT companies only with American name. Even their management these days is mostly Indian.​

 

[Azaad]

I don't think we need to outmaneuver these companies. These are basically Indian IT companies only with American name. Even their management these days is mostly Indian.​

Dil ke behalane Ko Ghalib yeh khayal accha hain

 

[SKC]

Dil ke behalane Ko Ghalib yeh khayal accha hain

IBM is now reduced to a IT services provider company. Their R&D business is reduced to dust with small teams working in US only.

Their IT division works from India with Indian workforce.

Capgemini is not US but French origin and again has their majority work force hired from India and operates from Indian offices.​

 

[DingDong]

But unlike Chinese exports - IT services can be relatively quickly substituted if US wanted. At worst they would have made lucrative for some portion of IT engineers to relocate and train people and execute project elsewhere.

This dependency was broken by the major Indian IT service providers back in 2008 when they realized that they were just another "American financial crisis" away from going bankrupt. Indian IT services are extremely diversified now.

India right now is one of the largest markets for the companies collectively called the FANG. For the rest, there is no real substitute for the decades of experience and mature processes.

 

[ezsasa]

There's a vital difference. Following in the lead of Indian IT services companies , a lot of foreign IT services cos like IBM , Capgemini etc joined the bandwagon. Yes they did all their recruiting here & in practically all such cases based their Global Centres of Excellence here

The larger point being unlike the Chinese in mfg we haven't managed to outmaneuver these cos .

our companies haven't even managed to capture consumer goods Indian market on their own, capturing foreign markets is far away. outside of kitchen and pooja room in Indian households, there are hardly any products that came out of Indian market research, high majority of them are foreign product designs and service ideas being sold here by creating a local adaptation/derivative of foreign business models.

most notable exceptions are shampoo sachets or similar such small sachets products.

this is also the reason, our companies will not be world leaders in any product.

without own exportable indigenous product and corresponding sales philosophy , there won't be a Indian version of GCC.

 

[Azaad]

IBM is now reduced to a IT services provider company. Their R&D business is reduced to dust with small teams working in US only.

Their IT division works from India with Indian workforce.

Capgemini is not US but French origin and again has their majority work force hired from India and operates from Indian offices.​

As long as they are incorporated in the US or France or anywhere in the west , they WILL be identified as western cos . A majority of Indians in their workforce or Indians in top management doesn't change that fact .

 

[DingDong]

As long as they are incorporated in the US or France or anywhere in the west , they WILL be identified as western cos . A majority of Indians in their workforce or Indians in top management doesn't change that fact .

All foreign companies running their business here in India do so through a fully owned subsidiary incorporated here in India (that is the law). For example, IBM or Amazon India are entirely separate legal entities than their respective parents in the USA.

 

[Azaad]

our companies haven't even managed to capture consumer goods Indian market on their own, capturing foreign markets is far away. outside of kitchen and pooja room in Indian households, there are hardly any products that came out of Indian market research, high majority of them are foreign product designs and service ideas being sold here by creating a local adaptation/derivative of foreign business models.

most notable exceptions are shampoo sachets or similar such small sachets products.

this is also the reason, our companies will not be world leaders in any product.

without own exportable indigenous product and corresponding sales philosophy , there won't be a Indian version of GCC.

I'm convinced we need a new generation & class of entrepreneurs away from the rent seekers of the past who still dominate our businesses the worst examples being the Zee & Jet Airways group , Videocon , Mallya , Essar etc . However there's Dixon emerging rapidly in the consumer durable space & cos like Amber .

China threw them up in a couple of generations only in the last 40 years after nearly a century of jeopardy . There's still hope .

You may call it clutching at straws & you wouldn't be wrong but I'm hopeful. It'd take a good 2-3 decades though for them to realise their true potential GLOBALLY like it is with Chinese firms in the same space like Haier , Midea etc .

 

[Azaad]

All foreign companies running their business here in India do so through a fully owned subsidiary incorporated here in India (that is the law). For example, IBM or Amazon India are entirely separate legal entities than their respective parents in the USA.

My larger point for those more into semantics & pedantics being they're essentially foreign cos whether they've a subsidiary here or not , the parent co is still incorporated in the west & the board running these cos are still based in the west comprised of westerners aren't they.

Think how the Chinese subverted them in practically every sector of mfg & are now outcompeting them in their own markets leave aside within China moving up the value chain to do so with EVs , Solar & Wind turbines being a very good example apart from consumer electronics .

 

[ezsasa]

I'm convinced we need a new generation & class of entrepreneurs away from the rent seekers of the past who still dominate our businesses the worst examples being the Zee & Jet Airways group , Videocon , Mallya , Essar etc . However there's Dixon emerging rapidly in the consumer durable space & cos like Amber .

China threw them up in a couple of generations only in the last 40 years after nearly a century of jeopardy . There's still hope .

You may call it clutching at straws & you wouldn't be wrong but I'm hopeful. It'd take a good 2-3 decades though for them to realise their true potential GLOBALLY like it is with Chinese firms in the same space like Haier , Midea etc .

the future you seek, the success will not come from good MBA students, perhaps it will come from non-MBA or an MBA with bad marks i.e folks who have internalised foreign business models, will have difficulty unlearning so that they can think on their own.

 

[DingDong]

My larger point for those more into semantics & pedantics being they're essentially foreign cos whether they've a subsidiary here or not , the parent co is still incorporated in the west & the board running these cos are still based in the west comprised of westerners aren't they.

Think how the Chinese subverted them in practically every sector of mfg & are now outcompeting them in their own markets leave aside within China moving up the value chain to do so with EVs , Solar & Wind turbines being a very good example apart from consumer electronics .

India's total export to the US (2023): ~76 billion USD
India's IT export (2023): ~193 billion USD

Additionally,

Had substituting one supplier with another been so easy, US might have done that already due to the strategic reasons.

 

[SKC]

our companies haven't even managed to capture consumer goods Indian market on their own, capturing foreign markets is far away. outside of kitchen and pooja room in Indian households, there are hardly any products that came out of Indian market research, high majority of them are foreign product designs and service ideas being sold here by creating a local adaptation/derivative of foreign business models.

most notable exceptions are shampoo sachets or similar such small sachets products.

this is also the reason, our companies will not be world leaders in any product.

without own exportable indigenous product and corresponding sales philosophy , there won't be a Indian version of GCC.

Because our background is not same as US/EU. We are IT services provider country which is different than the FAANG/MAANG culture of US.

Both has their own importance and cause. We developed the things as per our social-economical-political situation and structure.​

 

[Prasad]

India's total export to the US (2023): ~76 billion USD
India's IT export (2023): ~193 billion USD

Additionally,

Had substituting one supplier with another been so easy, US might have done that already due to the strategic reasons.

Someone should do import part as well.
It's not one way street.
Many Indian companies use western products for internal consumption.

 

[Blademaster]

IBM is now reduced to a IT services provider company. Their R&D business is reduced to dust with small teams working in US only.

Their IT division works from India with Indian workforce.

Capgemini is not US but French origin and again has their majority work force hired from India and operates from Indian offices.​

What about quantum computing research?

 

[ezsasa]

Because our background is not same as US/EU. We are IT services provider country which is different than the FAANG/MAANG culture of US.

Both has their own importance and cause. We developed the things as per our social-economical-political situation and structure.​

that is true, and it is also true that the reason there are GCCs in India is because the foreign product companies are doing internal cost cutting to sustain their bottom line. India are getting a tiny sliver of the revenues they are making, because of currency conversion rates, it looks appealing.

at some point, some Indian will start thinking why aim for these tiny slivers, rather go for the entire pie. entire pie is a new product category, where no revenue needs to be shared under compulsion.

and secondly, these past few days i am pissed at foreign business models. ordered some indian made product from amazon, normally i would assemble it my self, either deliberate or by bad product design there is a screw i can't get to. called a local electrician, he is not able to do it even after looking for YT videos on assembly. these days electrical repair shops are rare compared to 10-15 years ago, so that's not an option. product whatsapp customer care (probably automated) says they can send a guy to assemble but at cost, and will answer no other questions. basically there are gaps that are emerging in our business models.

hence the extra rant.

 

[shade2]

our companies haven't even managed to capture consumer goods Indian market on their own, capturing foreign markets is far away. outside of kitchen and pooja room in Indian households, there are hardly any products that came out of Indian market research, high majority of them are foreign product designs and service ideas being sold here by creating a local adaptation/derivative of foreign business models.

most notable exceptions are shampoo sachets or similar such small sachets products.

this is also the reason, our companies will not be world leaders in any product.

without own exportable indigenous product and corresponding sales philosophy , there won't be a Indian version of GCC.

Very hard in some sectors say white goods or consoomer electronics, since it's reached a ceiling there, unless you have low price + high features and word of mouth marketing you can't get the sales

For example Microwaves, apparently world over most of these come from Midea of China, just the brand name is different


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSrVG74Emyk&pp=ygUrbWlkZWEgbWFrZXMgYWxsIHRoZSBtaWNyb3dhdmVzIGluIHRoZSB3b3JsZA%3D%3D

Our Lalajis had their chance but they were too busy being banias in this land, rent-seeking and no drive to expand to the foreign lands or even export maxxx like Samsung did in the past

 

[Azaad]

India's total export to the US (2023): ~76 billion USD
India's IT export (2023): ~193 billion USD

Additionally,

Had substituting one supplier with another been so easy, US might have done that already due to the strategic reasons.

Boss you either aren't getting what I'm pointing out to in simple English or you're pretending not to get it. I didn't bring up our exports of goods or services at all including the fact that our IT services comprises a big chunk of our services exports which incidentally also includes cos like IBM etc apart from Indian firms like TCS , Infosys etc .

My larger point is where is the COMPLETE dominance of Indian firms in a rare sector we have done well in for a good 2 to 2.5 decades now as compared to the Chinese ?

Where are the plans by a TCS or an Infosys or a HCL or Wipro or Tech Mahindra or an L&T IT services to move beyond being glorified IT coolies up the value chain whatever that offering or product may be that enables you to utterly dominate that segment like the Chinese now dominate the EV space or the solar panel or wind turbine space or even consumer electronics ( though they don't dominate the latter but are gradually & steadily increasing their market share globally ) ?

What in the above is so difficult to understand ?

 

[SKC]

Boss you either aren't getting what I'm pointing out to in simple English or you're pretending not to get it. I didn't bring up our exports of goods or services at all including the fact that our IT services comprises a big chunk of our services exports which incidentally also includes cos like IBM etc apart from Indian firms like TCS , Infosys etc .

My larger point is where is the COMPLETE dominance of Indian firms in a rare sector we have done well in for a good 2 to 2.5 decades now as compared to the Chinese ?

Where are the plans by a TCS or an Infosys or a HCL or Wipro or Tech Mahindra or an L&T IT services to move beyond being glorified IT coolies up the value chain whatever that offering or product may be that enables you to utterly dominate that segment like the Chinese now dominate the EV space or the solar panel or wind turbine space or even consumer electronics ( though they don't dominate the latter but are gradually & steadily increasing their market share globally ) ?

What in the above is so difficult to understand ?

Something we have discussed multiple times before, don't confuse TCS/Infy/HCL/Wipro with FAANG/MAANG!
Indian Big-4 are IT services providers and not the platform providers like Amazon/Apple/MS/Google/etc

Similar company in India would be Zoho Corp!​

 

[Azaad]

Something we have discussed multiple times before, don't confuse TCS/Infy/HCL/Wipro with FAANG/MAANG!
Indian Big-4 are IT services providers and not the platform providers like Amazon/Apple/MS/Google/etc

Similar company in India would be Zoho Corp!​

I'm not confusing them . I'm aware of the difference as opposed to the distinction. I'm merely highlighting what Sanjeev Sanyal in his latest interviews in a very different context is referring to the poverty of aspirations or ambitions.

To further highlight what I meant - in one of the interviews I viewed he's referred to the phenomenon of students trying desperately for state & central government posts by repeatedly appearing for those examinations in the lakhs if not crores where the % of success is < 1.

It's the same philosophy or mindset at work here.