Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Ayan Barat]

No, just wanted to know apples-to-apples armament comparison, we aren't going to face 50 of their frigates, that number is meant for the Anschluss of Taiwan while USN just watches, fearful of the 150 White Warships of Xi Jinping, including their YJ-12 missiles.

Since most people including yours truly are blackpilled over IN's P-15A/B destroyer's anemic missile load as compared to Chini Type 52D or even the much more well equipped Sejong the Great class of BTS or their Arleigh Burkes of USN.

It feels nice to see atleast in terms of "frigates" the armament in numbers is comparable to peers including the local Papa John's franchisee Navy which also has the same model of frigate in service, but with YJ-12 so as to be equal-equal & sem2sem to BrahMos

Use this method of mine, you'd get a better picture

My personal method of calculating firepower is multiplying the number of available systems with a coefficient of effectiveness; it's a random 0-1 number I've come up with. Like T-72s would be say 0.5, T-90s would be 0.75 and next gen tanks would be 1...so now 100 T-72s are equal to 50 Panthers.

Wait so you mean SMART is supposed to be land-launched?

It's going to be an extremely painful process if you try to integrate these on ships. So as of now, no ship launched.

Why haven't we developed a smaller rocket to launch the torpedo from VLS like ASROC then?

We're using our RUB-6000 in similar roles as ASROC, albeit with one thirds the range but increased magazine depth.

One of the primary reason why we never bothered about these is that fact that we use the Soviet doctrine of heavy torpedo on surface vessels. Compare ASuW weapons on two premier destroyer
• Arleigh Bruke class
- 324mm torpedo; short ranged, 10km
- VL-ASROC; long ranged, 25km
• Kolkata class
- RBU-6000; short ranged, 8.5km
- 533mm torpedo; long ranged, 50km.

 

[Fatalis]

With the upcoming NGD, we might see proper dedicated roles assigned to each types. NGD will perform Area and BM Defence whereas
P-15 series and P-17 series will focus on ASW and ASuW.

 

[vampyrbladez]

How do our Nilgiri class compare to these Chinese Type 54A Frigates?

View attachment 20530

Paper specs are sem2sem, both have

• 8x AShm
• 32x SAM
• Torpedo tubes
• 76mm main gun
• 2x 30mm CIWS
• RBU style rocket launcher

Type 054A is more closely related to our Talwar Class than the Nilgiri Class. For comparison:

Sensor/Frigate Class	Type 054A	Talwar (Batch III)	Nilgiri	Advantage
Primary Radar	Type 382 radar	Fregat M2EM	MF-STAR AESA	Nilgiri
Range	250 KM	300 Km	450 KM+	Nilgiri
Secondary Radar	Type 344	Scanter 6002	Lanza 3D	Nilgiri
Range	250km	177 Km	470 Km	Nilgiri
Hull Mounted Sonar	MGK-335	HUMSA-NG (MK 2)	HUMSA-NG (MK 2)	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	27.8 km	40 km	40 km	Nilgiri/Talwar
Towed Sonar	H/SJG-206	ACTAS	ACTAS	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	129.6 km	60 Km	60 Km	Type 054A

Weapon/Frigate Class	Type 054A	Talwar (Batch III)	Nilgiri	Advantage
Surface to Air Missile (VLS)	32-cell VLS for HQ-16 SAM	24-cell VLS for Shtil-1 SAM	32-cell VLS for Barak 8 SAM	Nilgiri
Range	70 Km	50 Km	90-100 Km	Nilgiri
Anti Ship Missile (VLS/Launcher)	2 x 4 YJ 83 (Box Launcher)	8 x BrahMos (VLS)	8 x BrahMos (VLS)	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	180 - 230 Km	450-900 Km	450-900 Km	Nilgiri/Talwar
Anti Submarine Rocket	32-cell VLS for Yu-8	1 x RBU 6000 for RGB-60	2 x RBU 6000 for RGB-60	Type 054A
Range	20 km	8.5 Km	8.5 Km	Type 054A
Torpedo	2 × 3 324mm Yu-7	2 × twin 533mm Varunastra	2 × twin 533mm Varunastra	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	14.1 km	50 km	50 km	Nilgiri/Talwar
CIWS	2 × Type 730/1130	2 x AK 630	2 x AK 630	Type 054A
Range	5 km	5 km	5 km	Type 054A

Conclusion : Nilgiri >> Type 054A >= Talwar (Batch III)

 

[shade2]

We're using our RUB-6000 in similar roles as ASROC, albeit with one thirds the range but increased magazine depth.
One of the primary reason why we never bothered about these is that fact that we use the Soviet doctrine of heavy torpedo on surface vessels. Compare ASuW weapons on two premier destroyer
• Arleigh Bruke class
- 324mm torpedo; short ranged, 10km
- VL-ASROC; long ranged, 25km
• Kolkata class
- RBU-6000; short ranged, 8.5km
- 533mm torpedo; long ranged, 50km.

Learnt something new today

Type 054A is more closely related to our Talwar Class than the Nilgiri Class. For comparison:

Sensor/Frigate Class	Type 054A	Talwar (Batch III)	Nilgiri	Advantage
Primary Radar	Type 382 radar	Fregat M2EM	MF-STAR AESA	Nilgiri
Range	250 KM	300 Km	450 KM+	Nilgiri
Secondary Radar	Type 344	Scanter 6002	Lanza 3D	Nilgiri
Range	250km	177 Km	470 Km	Nilgiri
Hull Mounted Sonar	MGK-335	HUMSA-NG (MK 2)	HUMSA-NG (MK 2)	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	27.8 km	40 km	40 km	Nilgiri/Talwar
Towed Sonar	H/SJG-206	ACTAS	ACTAS	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	129.6 km	60 Km	60 Km	Type 054A

Weapon/Frigate Class	Type 054A	Talwar (Batch III)	Nilgiri	Advantage
Surface to Air Missile (VLS)	32-cell VLS for HQ-16 SAM	24-cell VLS for Shtil-1 SAM	32-cell VLS for Barak 8 SAM	Nilgiri
Range	70 Km	50 Km	90-100 Km	Nilgiri
Anti Ship Missile (VLS/Launcher)	2 x 4 YJ 83 (Box Launcher)	8 x BrahMos (VLS)	8 x BrahMos (VLS)	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	180 - 230 Km	450-900 Km	450-900 Km	Nilgiri/Talwar
Anti Submarine Rocket	32-cell VLS for Yu-8	1 x RBU 6000 for RGB-60	2 x RBU 6000 for RGB-60	Type 054A
Range	20 km	8.5 Km	8.5 Km	Type 054A
Torpedo	2 × 3 324mm Yu-7	2 × twin 533mm Varunastra	2 × twin 533mm Varunastra	Nilgiri/Talwar
Range	14.1 km	50 km	50 km	Nilgiri/Talwar
CIWS	2 × Type 730/1130	2 x AK 630	2 x AK 630	Type 054A
Range	5 km	5 km	5 km	Type 054A

Conclusion : Nilgiri >> Type 054A >= Talwar (Batch III)

Thanks for the detailed comparison table, was what i was looking for.

 

[shade2]

With the upcoming NGD, we might see proper dedicated roles assigned to each types. NGD will perform Area and BM Defence whereas
P-15 series and P-17 series will focus on ASW and ASuW.

Hope it does.
Navy is obsessed with putting BrahMos everywhere on existing ships, so we should be covered in the AShW department.

Don't know if there have a universal VLS in development but they should make one for quad pack VL-SRSAMs and Barak8 if possible and for BMD/Project Kusha missiles also.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Damn good write-up my Guy.
Missing few nuances like you can't have 32 SAM and 32 ASROC at the same time; a more accurate estimation should be something like 28 SAM and 4 ASROC but still, nice.

Conclusion : Nilgiri >> Type 054A >= Talwar (Batch III)

But end of day this conclusion becomes moot when you factor in the weights of each of the vessels. Nilgiri's 6.6kT, 054A's 4kT and Talwar 4kT; +2.2kT...

In fact, Nilgiri's one of those ships that completely blows my mind when I think what exactly were people smoking. Compare it with Kolkata; displacement's not very off, same MF-STAR, even better L band radar, exact same 76mm SRGM - BrahMos UKSK - Barak-8 - RBU-6000 - heavy torpedo tube.
It was almost there to be our P-15C destroyer with lighter displacement better radar, less crew, newer design and perhaps more importantly in considerable numbers................and then suddenly an Eureka moment happened and someone decided to save a whopping 100t in an already 6.6t "destroyer" by cutting down 1x BrahMos launcher and 2x AK-630.
It's like as if Michelangelo was carving David and just when he was about to finish it by doing the head, he made it of Hero Alom.

Or perhaps something like this

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

Damn good write-up my Guy.
Missing few nuances like you can't have 32 SAM and 32 ASROC at the same time; a more accurate estimation should be something like 28 SAM and 4 ASROC but still, nice.

But end of day this conclusion becomes moot when you factor in the weights of each of the vessels. Nilgiri's 6.6kT, 054A's 4kT and Talwar 4kT; +2.2kT...

In fact, Nilgiri's one of those ships that completely blows my mind when I think what exactly were people smoking. Compare it with Kolkata; displacement's not very off, same MF-STAR, even better L band radar, exact same 76mm SRGM - BrahMos UKSK - Barak-8 - RBU-6000 - heavy torpedo tube.
It was almost there to be our P-15C destroyer with lighter displacement better radar, less crew, newer design and perhaps more importantly in considerable numbers................and then suddenly an Eureka moment happened and someone decided to save a whopping 100t in an already 6.6t "destroyer" by cutting down 1x BrahMos launcher and 2x AK-630.
It's like as if Michelangelo was carving David and just when he was about to finish it by doing the head, he made it of Hero Alom.

Or perhaps something like this
View attachment 20542

exactly that point always upsets me that why lesser number of brahmos are there

maybe they were to give better sam number but that didnt happen

will they try to put vlsrsam in it we dont know

i think there could be space for 8 more brahmos cells

otherwise a similar salvo launch like the pic below will be 1/4th of magzine depth of nilgiri

 

[Fatalis]

Damn good write-up my Guy.
Missing few nuances like you can't have 32 SAM and 32 ASROC at the same time; a more accurate estimation should be something like 28 SAM and 4 ASROC but still, nice.

But end of day this conclusion becomes moot when you factor in the weights of each of the vessels. Nilgiri's 6.6kT, 054A's 4kT and Talwar 4kT; +2.2kT...

In fact, Nilgiri's one of those ships that completely blows my mind when I think what exactly were people smoking. Compare it with Kolkata; displacement's not very off, same MF-STAR, even better L band radar, exact same 76mm SRGM - BrahMos UKSK - Barak-8 - RBU-6000 - heavy torpedo tube.
It was almost there to be our P-15C destroyer with lighter displacement better radar, less crew, newer design and perhaps more importantly in considerable numbers................and then suddenly an Eureka moment happened and someone decided to save a whopping 100t in an already 6.6t "destroyer" by cutting down 1x BrahMos launcher and 2x AK-630.
It's like as if Michelangelo was carving David and just when he was about to finish it by doing the head, he made it of Hero Alom.

Or perhaps something like this
View attachment 20542

They have to call it frigate. They are compelled to do it. From the sources it seems IN is sanctioned a strength of 11 DDGs and 24 FFGs. If they call P-17A as destroyer then they won't get approvals for NGD. But this number seems to have increased to 15 DDG and 30 FFG ( just my assumption because of the 08 NGD and 07 P-17B).

 

[shade2]

Damn good write-up my Guy.
Missing few nuances like you can't have 32 SAM and 32 ASROC at the same time; a more accurate estimation should be something like 28 SAM and 4 ASROC but still, nice.

But end of day this conclusion becomes moot when you factor in the weights of each of the vessels. Nilgiri's 6.6kT, 054A's 4kT and Talwar 4kT; +2.2kT...

In fact, Nilgiri's one of those ships that completely blows my mind when I think what exactly were people smoking. Compare it with Kolkata; displacement's not very off, same MF-STAR, even better L band radar, exact same 76mm SRGM - BrahMos UKSK - Barak-8 - RBU-6000 - heavy torpedo tube.
It was almost there to be our P-15C destroyer with lighter displacement better radar, less crew, newer design and perhaps more importantly in considerable numbers................and then suddenly an Eureka moment happened and someone decided to save a whopping 100t in an already 6.6t "destroyer" by cutting down 1x BrahMos launcher and 2x AK-630.
It's like as if Michelangelo was carving David and just when he was about to finish it by doing the head, he made it of Hero Alom.

Or perhaps something like this
View attachment 20542

You could see this as a result of poverty also, considering there was RR happening over the render of NGMV from it's steel cutting ceremony, where even the RFI specified 8x inclined launchers for BrahMos and the render showed only 4.

That said I hope P-17B doesn't endup being a clone of Vishakhapatnam/Kolkata class
with sem2sem armament, need moar missiles

 

[shade2]

They have to call it frigate. They are compelled to do it. From the sources it seems IN is sanctioned a strength of 11 DDGs and 24 FFGs. If they call P-17A as destroyer then they won't get approvals for NGD. But this number seems to have increased to 15 DDG and 30 FFG ( just my assumption because of the 08 NGD and 07 P-17B).

Germans have a 10k ton """"frigate""""" that is more anemically armed than IN's destroyers

Classification jhumlas can be done without sacrificing on tonnage and all, look at the Japanese, unless ofc there is some MoD baboo somewhere and he has a list of definitions for "Destroyer" and "Frigate" with max and minimum tonnages for such classifications.

Anyway with the new figures let's assume the future fleet assuming all currently under construction/planning/in service ships get built and commissioned.

Assume Rajput and Brahmaputra classes get decomissioned

DDG :- Delhi( 3 ), Kolkata( 3 ), Vishakhapatnam( 4 ), NGD/P-18( 5 because gareebi ) class, 15 ships total
FFG :- Talwar( 10 ), Shivalik ( 3 ), Nilgiri ( 7 ), P-17B( 7 ) 27 ships total

 

[Corvus Splendens]

They have to call it frigate. They are compelled to do it. From the sources it seems IN is sanctioned a strength of 11 DDGs and 24 FFGs. If they call P-17A as destroyer then they won't get approvals for NGD. But this number seems to have increased to 15 DDG and 30 FFG ( just my assumption because of the 08 NGD and 07 P-17B).

They can call it whatever they want. The ships are under-armed. When they should be armed to the teeth, making use of the tonnage. I hate "peacetime mission loads".


Doesn't have numbers, can't face PLAN ships 2 to 1 to make up for it.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Damn good write-up my Guy.
Missing few nuances like you can't have 32 SAM and 32 ASROC at the same time; a more accurate estimation should be something like 28 SAM and 4 ASROC but still, nice.

Thanks. I just put in the absolute maximum number of Yu-8 ASROC any mad lad would want on a Type 054A but practically as you say it's 24-28 HQ-16 and 4-8 Yu-8 ASROC.

I doubt the Pakistanis would have any Yu-8 in their Tughril Class (Type 054AP).

In fact, Nilgiri's one of those ships that completely blows my mind when I think what exactly were people smoking. Compare it with Kolkata; displacement's not very off, same MF-STAR, even better L band radar, exact same 76mm SRGM - BrahMos UKSK - Barak-8 - RBU-6000 - heavy torpedo tube.
It was almost there to be our P-15C destroyer with lighter displacement better radar, less crew, newer design and perhaps more importantly in considerable numbers................and then suddenly an Eureka moment happened and someone decided to save a whopping 100t in an already 6.6t "destroyer" by cutting down 1x BrahMos launcher and 2x AK-630.

I think there are two possible reasons :

1) Navy has a hard on for using multiples of 2 for each naval class and divides by that as ships become smaller.

• CG (Cruiser) - 32 AShM
• DDG (Destroyer) - 16 AShM
• FFG (Frigate) - 8 AShM
• Corvette (DEG) - 4 AShM

2) BrahMos ER is really expensive at $4.85 million a pop and the Navy was hoping for the NASM-MR/LR-LACM for lower end platforms and strike roles.

With no NASM-MR on the horizon and LR-LACM only for strike roles, BrahMos ER is the only anti-ship weapon in large numbers in the Navy's inventory.

Germans have a 10k ton """"frigate""""" that is more anemically armed than IN's destroyers

Classification jhumlas can be done without sacrificing on tonnage and all, look at the Japanese, unless ofc there is some MoD baboo somewhere and he has a list of definitions for "Destroyer" and "Frigate" with max and minimum tonnages for such classifications.

Anyway with the new figures let's assume the future fleet assuming all currently under construction/planning/in service ships get built and commissioned.

Assume Rajput and Brahmaputra classes get decomissioned

DDG :- Delhi( 3 ), Kolkata( 3 ), Vishakhapatnam( 4 ), NGD/P-18( 5 because gareebi ) class, 15 ships total
FFG :- Talwar( 10 ), Shivalik ( 3 ), Nilgiri ( 7 ), P-17B( 7 ) 27 ships total

You forgot Brahmaputra Class.

DDG :- Delhi( 3 ), Kolkata( 3 ), Vishakhapatnam( 4 ), NGD/P-18(8 in 2 batches) class, 18 ships total
FFG :- Brahmaputra(3), Talwar( 10 ), Shivalik ( 3 ), Nilgiri ( 7 ), P-17B( 7 ) 30 ships total

 

[shade2]

You forgot Brahmaputra Class.

DDG :- Delhi( 3 ), Kolkata( 3 ), Vishakhapatnam( 4 ), NGD/P-18(8 in 2 batches) class, 18 ships total
FFG :- Brahmaputra(3), Talwar( 10 ), Shivalik ( 3 ), Nilgiri ( 7 ), P-17B( 7 ) 30 ships total

I assumed Brahmaputra class would be decommissioned, maybe the gap of ~3 frigates will be filled with additional orders of P-17A/B or a future frigate class.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I assumed Brahmaputra class would be decommissioned, maybe the gap of ~3 frigates will be filled with additional orders of P-17A/B or a future frigate class.

Brahmaputra class frigates were inducted around the same time as the Talwar Class (Batch I) and are based on the top heavy Leander Class hull from the 1960-70s which is why you see them 'tipping' over.

Until NGF (P 17B is just to keep shipyards busy as @abingdonboy kept mentioning some years ago until P 18 starts construction in 2029-2030), a proper next generation frigate with UNICORN style mast, next gen radars, missiles, hull forms, etc comes in around mid 2030s, Brahmaputra and Talwar (Batch I) Class will be in active service with the navy.

 

[Ayan Barat]

BrahMos ER is really expensive at $4.85 million a pop

I'm too pretty much certain that this might be the reason they downgraded the number of BrahMos per craft.

We paid close to $2.5 billion for just 220 BrahMos. Just 220 because its enough for only one complete mag dump by all the frontline ships. P-15A 3x16, P-15B 4x16, Talwar 3x8, Shivalik 3x8, Nilgiri 7x8 and you get max of 216 BrahMos.

But if the price of BrahMos was the issue then what was the problem with just an extra VLS; just an empty VLS that would have never seen a BrahMos ever in its life during peace time. But in case of a war you atleast have something to put those extra BrahMos in.

Navy has a hard on for using multiples of 2 for each naval class and divides by that as ships become smaller.

If you really wanna see Nilgiri's problem then do a BrahMos per 1kT; again one of my brainrot metrics that I just made out of thin air.
• Vishakhapatnam - 2.1
• Kolkata - 2.1
• Shivalik - 1.2
• Talwar - 2
• Nilgiri - 1.2

For even Type 052D, let alone Type 055; this number is 8.5.
But let's say it's too much for a socialist country like us and we can only maintain a coefficient of just 3 but atleast have that 3 same for each ship.
Nikgiri is roughly 90% of the displacement of Kolkata and yet it's BrahMos loadout is just 50% of Kolkata.
50% AShMs gone with just 10% displacement.

 

[Fatalis]

Brahmaputra class frigates were inducted around the same time as the Talwar Class (Batch I) and are based on the top heavy Leander Class hull from the 1960-70s which is why you see them 'tipping' over.

Until NGF (P 17B is just to keep shipyards busy as @abingdonboy kept mentioning some years ago until P 18 starts construction in 2029-2030), a proper next generation frigate with UNICORN style mast, next gen radars, missiles, hull forms, etc comes in around mid 2030s, Brahmaputra and Talwar (Batch I) Class will be in active service with the navy.

Yes, P16A will be in service atleast till 2035. Plan is already underway to change their propulsion system. They might be refitted with VL-SRSAM and MRAShM.

 

[shade2]

Doesn't have numbers, can't face PLAN ships 2 to 1 to make up for it.

I think Admirals are literally on this cope/strategy.

Imagine getting all the approvals and funding and all for making fancy 64 VLS cell boats, but because of price you can only make 3-4.

In war time when the 25 foot PLAAN may come into IOR to flex, what if a few of these missile maxxxing ships get sunk? all those missiles go the the bottom too.

Reduce your missile load to say 40-48 and maybe they can get 7-8 ships, Reorder with a few modifications by calling it "Bravo" and you can score another 7-8 ships.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I'm too pretty much certain that this might be the reason they downgraded the number of BrahMos per craft.

But if the price of BrahMos was the issue then what was the problem with just an extra VLS; just an empty VLS that would have never seen a BrahMos ever in its life during peace time. But in case of a war you atleast have something to put those extra BrahMos in.

If you really wanna see Nilgiri's problem then do a BrahMos per 1kT; again one of my brainrot metrics that I just made out of thin air.
• Vishakhapatnam - 2.1
• Kolkata - 2.1
• Shivalik - 1.2
• Talwar - 2
• Nilgiri - 1.2

For even Type 052D, let alone Type 055; this number is 8.5.
But let's say it's too much for a socialist country like us and we can only maintain a coefficient of just 3 but atleast have that 3 same for each ship.
Nikgiri is roughly 90% of the displacement of Kolkata and yet it's BrahMos loadout is just 50% of Kolkata.
50% AShMs gone with just 10% displacement.

Type 052D generally has 16x YJ-18, 48x HQ-9 and is mainly an air defense based destroyer. It's similar in purpose to the Kolkata Class.

I think that since the Navy needs to cover more sectors, it wants more MF-STAR equipped platforms and create an Indian AEGIS network and P-17A was cheaper since it had the same radar and missile (Barak 8) as the P 15A/B on a slightly smaller hull (P 17/ Shivalik Class).

It would be fair to compare the P 17A to it's contemporaries like the Constellation Class, Gorshkov Class, Type 26, etc for a more nuanced comparison.

Perhaps all the MF-STAR equipped platforms will receive VL-SRSAM (x 32 VLS) during their MLUs so deck space is reserved for that.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

They can call it whatever they want. The ships are under-armed. When they should be armed to the teeth, making use of the tonnage. I hate "peacetime mission loads".
View attachment 20547
View attachment 20548
Doesn't have numbers, can't face PLAN ships 2 to 1 to make up for it.

Lot of packing issue with these ships.

Still the big moot point- Does Naval Design Bureau/DRDO started the UVLS program for us. Till now we did not see any Tender. Even Kaveri have periodical tenders to track its progress.

So we have VL-SRSAM, MRSAM(Barak-8) for Air defence. For Offensive purpose we have only ER. On the pipeline we have LR-LACM, Hypersonic AhsM, NASM-MR. Also in Future we may have bigger BMD mizziles.

So we need to build an UVLS to handle this these mizziles. Then what about RBU6000. Yes it has some positives but Type 055 does not care about it. They have small torpedoes and Inshallah.

We should streamline the roles for our ships also. Current one is Jack of all trades master of none.


For that we need to do R&D, Some clever packaging and money.

 

[shade2]

Turkish Navy starts construction of 3 major projects: MUGEM Aircraft Carrier, TF-2000 Destroyer, MILDEN Submarine - Naval News

The Turkish MoD announced the steel cutting ceremonies for the MUGEM aircraft carrier, TF-2000 destroyer and MILDEN submarine.

www.navalnews.com

How are Turkans supposed to able to pop out all this stuff while having a Defense budget less than Taiwan in absolute terms?
>60k ton aircraft carrier
>8k ton destroyer with 96 VLS cells, VLS system also domestically developed
>80m length, 2.5k ton domestically built submarine

Our economically challenged Navy meanwhile has to cut down on missiles?