Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Corvus Splendens]

VLS system also domestically developed

no.

 

[shade2]

no.

details? Mehmets kang about this alot but i suspect it's some Mk 41 or Sylver derivative.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

details? Mehmets kang about this alot but i suspect it's some Mk 41 or Sylver derivative.

MIDLAS is just Mk 41

 

[Ayan Barat]

How are Turkans supposed to able to pop out all this stuff while having a Defense budget less than Taiwan in absolute terms

By copying.

Except for some handful of big token projects like UAV, jet, copter, SAMs; every single thing is copied from some western system.

EDIT : Some specimens of Atmanirbhar Turkiye weapons that are completely IDDM; just like most of our private sector platforms

 

[shade2]

By copying.

Except for some handful of big token projects like UAV, jet, copter, SAMs; every single thing is copied from some western system.

EDIT : Some specimens of Atmanirbhar Turkiye weapons that are completely IDDM; just like most of our private sector platforms
View attachment 20579
View attachment 20580
View attachment 20581

Copying se you can clone low end systems, if you want to do China style reverse engineering and cloning even then the public Chinese defense budget is like 10 times the Turkan one, forget about the real Chinese defense budget.

So i have a theory that they don't actually go the whole 9 yards to be Atmanirbhar( like how China does, full supply chain for most of their stuff is Made in China, or how the late USSR used to do ) nor do they need to since they are comfortable being a US bitch + have no immediate enemies out to get them.

So their Atmanirbhar Turki platforms are just giri stuff for political image of their Sultan-Khilafa over there + for exports at which they seem to be successful.

giri would be cheaper for them since being treaty US and NATO allies they can get a lot of the sub components for cheap and quickly including generous licensed production deals( like that one Italian attack helicopter they have )

As for their Defense budget not making sense I'd assume they slash the order numbers of the stuff they want to procure like the Destroyers( supposedly they're making 8 ) and Subs( also 8 ) in previous page i mentioned.

 

[Binayak95]

the bit about Nilgiris being almost the same tonnage and being so underarmed as the Kolkatas - you know that the kolkatas have a fuck tonne of ballast to make that wobbly monstrosity of a MFSTAR mast even remotely stable?

As in, in practice, the P15A and B regularly blows clean through 7000 tonnes and THEN SOME.

The Nilgiris are a complete resdesign of the MFSTAR - think of her as our Fletcher, and the preceding destroyers as the Summers class.

The Nilgiris are reputed to be so stable that they can take upgrades no problem for the foreseen next 20 years.

Damn good write-up my Guy.
Missing few nuances like you can't have 32 SAM and 32 ASROC at the same time; a more accurate estimation should be something like 28 SAM and 4 ASROC but still, nice.

But end of day this conclusion becomes moot when you factor in the weights of each of the vessels. Nilgiri's 6.6kT, 054A's 4kT and Talwar 4kT; +2.2kT...

In fact, Nilgiri's one of those ships that completely blows my mind when I think what exactly were people smoking. Compare it with Kolkata; displacement's not very off, same MF-STAR, even better L band radar, exact same 76mm SRGM - BrahMos UKSK - Barak-8 - RBU-6000 - heavy torpedo tube.
It was almost there to be our P-15C destroyer with lighter displacement better radar, less crew, newer design and perhaps more importantly in considerable numbers................and then suddenly an Eureka moment happened and someone decided to save a whopping 100t in an already 6.6t "destroyer" by cutting down 1x BrahMos launcher and 2x AK-630.
It's like as if Michelangelo was carving David and just when he was about to finish it by doing the head, he made it of Hero Alom.

Or perhaps something like this
View attachment 20542

 

[Ayan Barat]

the bit about Nilgiris being almost the same tonnage and being so underarmed as the Kolkatas - you know that the kolkatas have a fuck tonne of ballast to make that wobbly monstrosity of a MFSTAR mast even remotely stable?

As in, in practice, the P15A and B regularly blows clean through 7000 tonnes and THEN SOME.

The Nilgiris are a complete resdesign of the MFSTAR - think of her as our Fletcher, and the preceding destroyers as the Summers class.

The Nilgiris are reputed to be so stable that they can take upgrades no problem for the foreseen next 20 years.

Spoiler: MF-STAR is just 7t...

 

[Fatalis]

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

View attachment 20608

The Indian Navy saw a modest growth of 5,345t (+0.88%) this year, largely due changes in the auxiliary category being somewhat give and take in terms of tonnage, though the surface fleet saw the commissioning of the seventh Talwar-class frigate – and the first to fit its SAMs in VLS.

credits-https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/1hszcvc/top_ten_navies_by_aggregate_displacement_1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

@Phoenix_jz

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Don't worry we're ordering another Vikrant class STOBAR carrier

Guys I'm being sarcastic. The Vikrant is grossly inadequate without at least 2 catapults and wider lifts.

 

[shade2]

You guys may already know this but TIL this image of "Project 18 Destroyer" that defense fanboys hype each other up with "13000 TON DESTROYER WITH 122-144 VLS CELLS, 127MM CANNON, WAOW!", including on the wikipedia page,



Is from a video from DefExpo displaying 2022 Next Generation CMS by the Indian Navy twitter


View: https://x.com/IndiannavyMedia/status/1580814200347426817

In all likelihood this particular CGI may be the result of Admiral Mungerilal's Haseen Sapne but the chindis in MoD will never approve a 144 VLS design which may be very expensive.


So lets us pray that DND makes a 96 VLS Project 18 design and stands by whatever it costs( Instead of going the "we will add more missile in next MLU" route ) and the GoI approves the funding and contract gets signed during Gobi's this term only.

This is the only force among the 3 that is seemingly hampered only by budget and not by some import-khori based sabotage like the other two, let them for once become equal-equal with peer Naval powers.

 

[shade2]

The Nilgiris are reputed to be so stable that they can take upgrades no problem for the foreseen next 20 years.

Upgrades se yaad aaya, will the Talwar, Shivalik, Delhi class Shtil-1 arm-launchers be replaced with VLS in MLU?
Or will some other missile be used altogether like VL-SRSAM or Barak 8?

 

[Ayan Barat]

In all likelihood this particular CGI may be the...

...Italian DDX.

There you go

So lets us pray that DND makes a 96 VLS Project

Would be bit tough
Even if 96 VLS means just 32 BrahMos and 64 Barak-8s then also the cost of armament alone on each ship reaches $0.65 billion. $0.65 billion is roughly the price of a complete Nilgiri frigate.

Upgrades se yaad aaya, will the Talwar, Shivalik, Delhi class Shtil-1 arm-launchers be replaced with VLS in MLU?

As of now no chatter
By the way the use of VLS on Tushil and Tamala is primarily because they were being made for Russian navy.

Or will some other missile be used altogether like VL-SRSAM or Barak 8?

Highly unlikely given that you can't just simply replace the missile part of a complete Russian SARH ADS system.

 

[NerVik]

There you go

Would be bit tough
Even if 96 VLS means just 32 BrahMos and 64 Barak-8s then also the cost of armament alone on each ship reaches $0.65 billion. $0.65 billion is roughly the price of a complete Nilgiri frigate.

As of now no chatter
By the way the use of VLS on Tushil and Tamala is primarily because they were being made for Russian navy.

Highly unlikely given that you can't just simply replace the missile part of a complete Russian SARH ADS system.

Does anyone know if we are developing any RIM analogue? Or will be depend on AK630 and/or use up valuable VLS space for point defence? I am not even sure our ships have deck space for RIM modules, anyone knowledgeable on this one?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Does anyone know if we are developing any RIM analogue?

Most probably no because as of now we don't have a missile/motor to match the performance of RIM-116.

Or will be depend on AK630 and/or use up valuable VLS space for point defence?

Based on whatever I've heard, there are some long term plans to replace AK-630s. Can't say much but they'll be much better than current set-up.

I am not even sure our ships have deck space for RIM modules, anyone knowledgeable on this one?

One thing about US naval weapon designing is that they've this obsession of trying to avoid deck penetration as much as possible. Hence in everything from Phalanx to RIM-116 to SeaRAM, you won't need below deck space. Just find a sufficient large flat surface and simply put it there.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Most probably no because as of now we don't have a missile/motor to match the performance of RIM-116.

How about scaling this thing up ?

 

[shade2]

There you go

As of now no chatter
By the way the use of VLS on Tushil and Tamala is primarily because they were being made for Russian navy.

Highly unlikely given that you can't just simply replace the missile part of a complete Russian SARH ADS system.

Hope they put the Shtil-1 VLS on the older Tushils atleast, ones being built by GSL will have those right?

Would be bit tough
Even if 96 VLS means just 32 BrahMos and 64 Barak-8s then also the cost of armament alone on each ship reaches $0.65 billion. $0.65 billion is roughly the price of a complete Nilgiri frigate.

I am blackpilled now :/
Turkeys, Italians, US, Chings, Russies, Koreans, Japanese already have or are building 96 VLS ships, Imagine running with some 48/24 VLS in 2030-2040 when everybody else will have possibly more than 96 cells, chings already have ~112.

They need to push VL-SRSAM and NASM-MR development, sticking high end maal like Barak-8ER and BrahMos on everything is very expensive.

 

[Ayan Barat]

How about scaling this thing up ?
View attachment 20674

So for the seeker we definitely have VSHORAD one but we don't have any Sidewinder analogue.

Like most of Indian weapons, the VSHORADs too seems bit under-optimised; if you look closely you'll notice how they've just stretched the regular Nag ATGM. Even if you scale it up, it performance won't match its weight. Redesigning a completely new motor is the only viable solution.

Ones being built by GSL will have those right?

Most probably yes

They need to push...

There are numerous things that needs to be done but the problem is we're seeing this from a single lens; "X number of VLS vs Y number of VLS". We've no idea what factors are they accounting for to arrive at the decision of the current loadout. It can be anything from economy to production rate to maybe even personal bias.

Just to give you an example on how multiple things can ultimately contribute to a certain decision, here's the opinion of a Group Captain level officer

This comes solely from the experience with just one specific fighter; MiG-21.
When in reality it's totally our fault that we're still beating the dead horse. Or the fact that we use it in kind of an advanced supersonic trainer role and no matter how good an aircraft is, a trainer would always have more crashes for obvious reasons.
More than 1,000 F-35s have been built, countries who weren't even part of the JSF program are lining up to get one, USAF is trusting it with nuclear delivery and F-16/J-10/Gripen all are potent platforms...but still, single engine bad.
[I wonder what his opinions would be on Tejas].

 

[vampyrbladez]

You guys may already know this but TIL this image of "Project 18 Destroyer" that defense fanboys hype each other up with "13000 TON DESTROYER WITH 122-144 VLS CELLS, 127MM CANNON, WAOW!", including on the wikipedia page,

View attachment 20649

Is from a video from DefExpo displaying 2022 Next Generation CMS by the Indian Navy twitter


View: https://x.com/IndiannavyMedia/status/1580814200347426817

In all likelihood this particular CGI may be the result of Admiral Mungerilal's Haseen Sapne but the chindis in MoD will never approve a 144 VLS design which may be very expensive.


So lets us pray that DND makes a 96 VLS Project 18 design and stands by whatever it costs( Instead of going the "we will add more missile in next MLU" route ) and the GoI approves the funding and contract gets signed during Gobi's this term only.

This is the only force among the 3 that is seemingly hampered only by budget and not by some import-khori based sabotage like the other two, let them for once become equal-equal with peer Naval powers.

It will take until 2029 for a contract to be formalised and construction will start in 2030.

Thus given that manufacturing will be more advanced in the future, construction of the first ship will take 5 years (2030-2034).

Commissioning of the same will be in 2035. Thus cost of armament and each vessel can top $1.5 billion easily.

“The broad timeframe is about five years from now. By then, we should be in a position to target the contract, and within five to 10 years, entire delivery,”

https://theprint.in/defence/next-ge...-fighters-expected-by-2032-says-navy/1868213/

The first batch of 4 will easily cost around $6 billion. Next batch of 4 maybe $6.2 billion. So until 2040 there will be 8 x P 18A/B in service with the Navy, role wise very similar to the Type 055 Heavy Destroyer/ Cruiser.

 

[NerVik]

Most probably no because as of now we don't have a missile/motor to match the performance of RIM-116.

weren't the Astra missiles first test fired from surface rigs? Why can't we Jerry rig some RIM like frames and pack them with Astras, I mean we are jugaadufying everything, why not jugaad this one. This one seems like it will actually be a product more than just jugaad. Or is there more to turning the Astra into a SAM that we cannot do it now?

Based on whatever I've heard, there are some long term plans to replace AK-630s. Can't say much but they'll be much better than current set-up.

Is this plan a replacement of ak630 or a enhancement (aka jugaad)? Any idea on the timelines and will it work in tandem with a RIM type module later on (if one is to be developed)?

One thing about US naval weapon designing is that they've this obsession of trying to avoid deck penetration as much as possible. Hence in everything from Phalanx to RIM-116 to SeaRAM, you won't need below deck space. Just find a sufficient large flat surface and simply put it there.

This is why I want to know kf we have such deck space available on our ships to just put up a RIM type setup with Astras.