Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Ayan Barat]

Sorry

Packing density

It's just square meter per missile. No matter you quad pack or what, it's just this formula. So for
- Mk-41; (3.4*2.5)m²/8 = 1.06m² per missile
- Sylver; (2.6*2.3)m²/8 = 0.75m² per missile
- Mk-41 quad packed; (3.4*2.5)m²/(4*8) = 0.26m² per missile

Now you can elaborate each points like how ESSM is way smaller than a Tomahawk. Or how a single cell of Sylver is small than Mk-41s. But over-all this is what packing density is, the lesser space something occupies the more efficient it's considered. And it's not just related to Navy or VLS, it's applicable everywhere; like how F-22 is able to cram 6x AAMs in a space not very big than AMCA's where we can only carry 4x.

Here's a fun idea, TEDBF's front fuselage, canards and nose, chop em off and stick a Su-57's rear fuselage + engine arrangement plus wings.

So apparantly you also got the recipe of Binayak Sir's drink. Nice

BrahMos uses top attack during terminal phase like a Javelin ATGM IIRC.

For ground attack it definitely uses top attack because how else can you attack the poor ground? Can't fly parallel to it

But I haven't seen anything about top attack against warships, it's going to expose the missile for bit too long. Moreover in almost all the test footages the entry hole of BrahMos is pretty low, parallel to the waterline.

They should get working on this

After a certain point only Kusha and VL-SRSAM would be there on our ships.
Shtil-1 would soon get replaced because I assume these Talwars are going to be the last of the Soviet designed ships in IN service and as every single missile needs to be imported, it's better to just get something indigenous.
Barak-8 would get replaced because one, it's a rather expensive missile for what it does and second, there's no export prospect for it. Because in international market we'd be competing with IAI's Barak-MX systems.

This will give us an ASROC capability of sorts.

The problem is number of VLS.
For 7x P-15s it's Okay-ish, but for 20 ships (Shivalik, Talwar, Nilgiri) you've got just 8 cells. In 8, how many are going to be AShM and how many ASuW?

one for Destroyers and another for Frigates

Instead of further complicating logistics by two different VLS it's just better to have something in between like say a 30" cell that can do the job of both without much compromise.

And in case some ships need huge missiles like ASh-BM or ASAT missile then use the mid-ship space to laterally mount extendable launcher like you'd find on trucks that extend before firing. This would be a modular thing that can be easily added using just a crane.

This idea may feel weird but don't worry, it's an Indian problem. We're conditioned from childhood that anything innovative is weird and "if someone has not done this then it can't be done".

By the way, here's a future Korean ship using the exact same principle that I've described multiple times on this forum

 

[shade2]

What do y'all nibbiars think about the al-Zubarah class corvete built for al-Qutter by the Italians?
It's 3250 tons, Has 16x Sylver VLS in the front, 8x ASM slant launchers midship and one RAM launcher in the back, with the Oto 76mm cannon in front

Any hopes for our Next Gen Corvette to match such a spec? perhaps 32x Barak8 or VL-SRSAM, 8x slant launcher ?

 

[Binayak95]

I am back.

That was some trippy ass drink bois. Never mix aged gin with aged whiskey, it'll age you instead.

Anyway, noticed the Strales 76 on Nilgiri yet?
Saw its test fire, damn thing shot down a maneuvering delta winged drone that was going at respectable imitation of a subsonic cruise missile.

 

[Ayan Barat]

And most importantly, how the heck he makes such strong drink!?

Never mix aged gin with aged whiskey

Thanks Sir

 

[Blood+]

I am back.

That was some trippy ass drink bois. Never mix aged gin with aged whiskey, it'll age you instead.

Anyway, noticed the Strales 76 on Nilgiri yet?
Saw its test fire, damn thing shot down a maneuvering delta winged drone that was going at respectable imitation of a subsonic cruise missile.

Just drink fake beer like I do and pretend you're taking in the real thing.

 

[Binayak95]

Just drink fake beer like I do and pretend you're taking in the real thing.

I enjoy it, the mates went a bit far this time around is all.

 

[shade2]

I am back.

That was some trippy ass drink bois. Never mix aged gin with aged whiskey, it'll age you instead.

Anyway, noticed the Strales 76 on Nilgiri yet?
Saw its test fire, damn thing shot down a maneuvering delta winged drone that was going at respectable imitation of a subsonic cruise missile.

Per your experience, is the new Strales gun better than AK-630 at taking out missiles?

I mean we know that normal 76 SRGM can take out shahed drones and all ez pz.

I was reading reddit and there was debate over Gun based CIWS systems, as in Rotary cannon based high fire rate CIWS like Phalanx,Goalkeeper,AK630 vs normal single barrel gun with guided or airburst rounds like Oto 76 strales or Oerlikon millennium gun wagera.

The opinion there was that these single barrel guns with fancy ammo are the future of gun based CIWS, rotary cannon is obsolete

 

[Binayak95]

Per your experience, is the new Strales gun better than AK-630 at taking out missiles?

I mean we know that normal 76 SRGM can take out shahed drones and all ez pz.

I was reading reddit and there was debate over Gun based CIWS systems, as in Rotary cannon based high fire rate CIWS like Phalanx,Goalkeeper,AK630 vs normal single barrel gun with guided or airburst rounds like Oto 76 strales or Oerlikon millennium gun wagera.

The opinion there was that these single barrel guns with fancy ammo are the future of gun based CIWS, rotary cannon is obsolete

Well one way to look at it is to go to the last true peer on peer naval conflict, ala WWII in the Pacific.

Half of all IJN aircraft shot down was by the AA gunfire of USN ships, and the vast majority of it was thanks to the combo of 5 inch / 38 cal DP VT fused rounds fired from everything from a DDE to the secondary guns of an Iowa class, and the excellent 40mm Bofors.

We have variants of both in service, would be stupid not to take them to their logical evolution, but that's me.

 

[shade2]

Well one way to look at it is to go to the last true peer on peer naval conflict, ala WWII in the Pacific.

Half of all IJN aircraft shot down was by the AA gunfire of USN ships, and the vast majority of it was thanks to the combo of 5 inch / 38 cal DP VT fused rounds fired from everything from a DDE to the secondary guns of an Iowa class, and the excellent 40mm Bofors.

We have variants of both in service, would be stupid not to take them to their logical evolution, but that's me.

One sound argument goes like your single barrel cannon 40mm bofors, 76mm oto, 35mm oerlikon has greater range and accuracy( airburst or guided munition ) than rotary cannon CIWS which have shorter range.

If you ask me the P15A/B type setup is best , 4x rotary cannon CIWS for actual "close in" defense and 1 Strales type system for taking out missile and drones long range, on the cheap, since single single SAMs are expensive.

Single barrel cannons( normal ammo mostly, some had airburst ) ofc are here to stay now since everyone got a live demo of facing drone and missile spam while fighting the Houthias in the Red Sea, earlier assumption of missile based air defence would be worn out quickly by swarms of thrash drones

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1876930197083259018

US to manufacture sonobuoys in India, to augment Indian Navy's submarine detection capability

President Joe Biden’s National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, announced the progress in negotiations between Bharat Dynamics Limited and Ultra Maritime during his visit to New Delhi on Monday.

www.deccanherald.com

The Ultra Maritime sonobuoys co-produced in India are interchangeable and interoperable between the US Navy, Indian Navy and allied P-8, MH-60R and the MQ-9B Sea Guardian aircraft, Rear Admiral Mark Kenny (retd)

All the 3 platforms mentioned have those sonobuoy dispensers







Unkil Sam very gracious with Cheeni-submarine countering technologies, wish he was so generous with the GE engines also

 

[Ayan Barat]

Unkil Sam very gracious with Cheeni-submarine countering technologies, wish he was so generous with the GE engines also

It has less to do with Muricans and more to do with us. It's always better to have in-house production of expendable items like ammunition, decoys or in this case, sonobuoys. Sonobuoys are expensive...

...that's 90 lakh for a single use item. And it's expenditure rate too can get bit high...

...so in case of a full-fledged war, these 500 sonobuoys would sustain just 10-15 engagements.

So if this goes as planned then it'd be great for us as per unit cost would decrease and given a local production line, we'd no longer need to use these cautiously.

 

[shade2]

It has less to do with Muricans and more to do with us. It's always better to have in-house production of expendable items like ammunition, decoys or in this case, sonobuoys. Sonobuoys are expensive...
View attachment 21079
...that's 90 lakh for a single use item. And it's expenditure rate too can get bit high...
View attachment 21081
...so in case of a full-fledged war, these 500 sonobuoys would sustain just 10-15 engagements.

So if this goes as planned then it'd be great for us as per unit cost would decrease and given a local production line, we'd no longer need to use these cautiously.

Yes but Unkil allowing Indian production of US gear is only his choice.

As it is we have US platforms for ASW/Sonobuoy dropping and unlike the Frenchie/Russie who will suck your blood but allow integration of domestic gear, Unkil will not allow even that.

I guess their long term plan is to use our Navy to go after Chings in SCS aside from the usual Japan, SoKo Aussie Navy and USN themselves( Quad Quint finally becomes Asian NATO? ), which is why they are so sweet on us in this specific sector.

Hope next Pentagon puts in a good word and Unkil lets us have Phalanx with ToT for it's 20mm cannon or Goalkeeper and 30mm cannon

 

[Fatalis]

Apparently PM is in SBC Vizag (got to know from the other forum).

Nothing suspicious right? (May be for the induction of S4)

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/MazagonDockLtd/status/1877298275411210294

MDL has delivered INS Vagsheer to the Navy

 

[rohitb3]

Fun fact -

Number of inductions in 5 year period between 2020-2024

1 x INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier
1x Arihant Class Nuclear submarine
3x Kavari Class Submarines
3x Vishakapatnam Class Destroyers
1x Talwar Class Frigate
1x Kamorta Class Corvette
2 x Sandhayak Class Survey ships
1x INS Dhruv surveillance ship
1 x INS Anvesh surveillance ship

14 Warships, or almost 3 a year

Number of inductions expected in 5 year period between 2025-2029

1 x Vishakapatnam Class
7 x Nilgiri Class
2 x Arihant Class
1 x Kalvari Class
3 x Talwar Class
1 x INS Chakra
16 x ASW Corvettes
2 x Sandhayak Class
2x Samarthak Class
2x NGMV (conservative number by 2029)
2x NPOV (conservative number by 2029)
1 x HSL Class fleet tanker (conservative number by 2029)

40 warships, or 8 warships per year.

Not bad!

 

[shade2]

Fun fact -

Number of inductions in 5 year period between 2020-2024

1 x INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier
1x Arihant Class Nuclear submarine
3x Kavari Class Submarines
3x Vishakapatnam Class Destroyers
1x Talwar Class Frigate
1x Kamorta Class Corvette
2 x Sandhayak Class Survey ships
1x INS Dhruv surveillance ship
1 x INS Anvesh surveillance ship

14 Warships, or almost 3 a year

Number of inductions expected in 5 year period between 2025-2029

1 x Vishakapatnam Class
7 x Nilgiri Class
2 x Arihant Class
1 x Kalvari Class
3 x Talwar Class
1 x INS Chakra
16 x ASW Corvettes
2 x Sandhayak Class
2x Samarthak Class
2x NGMV (conservative number by 2029)
2x NPOV (conservative number by 2029)
1 x HSL Class fleet tanker (conservative number by 2029)

40 warships, or 8 warships per year.

Not bad!

Mostly because of the smaller, high numbers ships like ASW SWC and NGMV.
Nilgiris have all been launched with the last in 2023.

Nilgiri-class lead ship took 7 years from keel laying to delivery, and this is the most optimized setup with experienced shipyard MDL, weapons, and radars having domestic production and already used on P15A/B classes with the engines being the same as Shivalik class.

Hulls take 2-3 years to launch, the last Nilgiri class ship ,Mahendragiri was launched by MDL in around 1 year of keel-laying so the bottleneck is the radars, engines and weapon systems to arrive and be integrated.

 

[705-Lira]

Mostly because of the smaller, high numbers ships like ASW SWC and NGMV.
Nilgiris have all been launched with the last in 2023.

Nilgiri-class lead ship took 7 years from keel laying to delivery, and this is the most optimized setup with experienced shipyard MDL, weapons, and radars having domestic production and already used on P15A/B classes with the engines being the same as Shivalik class.

Hulls take 2-3 years to launch, the last Nilgiri class ship ,Mahendragiri was launched by MDL in around 1 year of keel-laying so the bottleneck is the radars, engines and weapon systems to arrive and be integrated.

Last minute configuration changes asked by the Navy when the ship was already being built delayed the Nilgiri class FFG by almost a year, that needs to be factored in aswell.

 

[705-Lira]

Mostly because of the smaller, high numbers ships like ASW SWC and NGMV.
Nilgiris have all been launched with the last in 2023.

Nilgiri-class lead ship took 7 years from keel laying to delivery, and this is the most optimized setup with experienced shipyard MDL, weapons, and radars having domestic production and already used on P15A/B classes with the engines being the same as Shivalik class.

Hulls take 2-3 years to launch, the last Nilgiri class ship ,Mahendragiri was launched by MDL in around 1 year of keel-laying so the bottleneck is the radars, engines and weapon systems to arrive and be integrated.

Despite these challenges, MDL has managed to deliver the lead ship, INS Nilgiri to the Navy faster than HMS Glasgow, lead ship of the Type 26 class of frigates to the Royal Navy.
HMS Glasgow was laid down on 20th July 2017 and is currently in the fitting out stage.
INS Nilgiri was laid down almost 5 months later on 28th December 2017.

This is despite the modular construction methodologies used on the HMS Glasgow are far superior to that of the INS Nilgiri.

 

[shade2]

Despite these challenges, MDL has managed to deliver the lead ship, INS Nilgiri to the Navy faster than HMS Glasgow, lead ship of the Type 26 class of frigates to the Royal Navy.
HMS Glasgow was laid down on 20th July 2017 and is currently in the fitting out stage.
INS Nilgiri was laid down almost 5 months later on 28th December 2017.

This is despite the modular construction methodologies used on the HMS Glasgow are far superior to that of the INS Nilgiri.

Excellent achievement by MDL, didn't know this, this was also the first modular-construction built ship class in the country, they had to take consultancy of Fincantieri of Italy, they have picked up quickly this means.