Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Anants]

A team of 50 people, with a budget of $200 million built this clean sheet, radical design in 3 years despite pandemic...
View attachment 24601
...so it's just baffling how a country with tens of billions in defence budget, multiple government owned establishment and a workforce of tens of thousands can't prioritize a project of such national importance

US team has plenty engine, avionics systems available as COTS. Tell me something about India on same lines.

 

[Nutcracker]

A team of 50 people, with a budget of $200 million built this clean sheet, radical design in 3 years despite pandemic...
View attachment 24601
...so it's just baffling how a country with tens of billions in defence budget, multiple government owned establishment and a workforce of tens of thousands can't prioritize a project of such national importance

200M$ figure is the cost of single jet once it is mass produced. R&D will surely involve Billions of $.

 

[Ayan Barat]

US team has plenty engine, avionics systems available as COTS. Tell me something about India on same lines.

If we're talking avionics then most of the avionics of Tejas can be used in TEDBF
If we're talking about engines then both Mk-II and TEDBF are going to use the same engine, just double the amount

So I don't know how exactly this COTS thing is going to affect us in TEDBF because we also have pretty much the same level of prerequisite, at least in plug-n-play technology as those guys.

 

[Ayan Barat]

200M$ figure is the cost of single jet once it is mass produced. R&D will surely involve Billions of $.

$200 million is the maximum investment that company has received before the first test flight

 

[Nutcracker]

$200 million is the maximum investment that company has received before the first test flight

700M way before FF of 1/3rd sized prototype.

 

[Azaad]

The effort spent on the TEDBF after 2030 would be better utilized in navalizing the AMCA and save dev cost. Considering it's timeline, hopefully Navy sees reason. There is little merit in spending this much funding and effort on an indigenous contemporary of the Rafale after 2035. Just buy more Rafales since 3 carrier plans are slashed and IAC 2 will enter service near Viky's reassignment as a training carrier.

Problem here is, TEDBF is not even in development where the LCA Mk2 is probably ready for flight testing in 2 years. Otherwise this makes sense and eradicates concerns for replacing the Su-30s with a newer homegrown platform. But what may end up happening is us once again going to the Russians and asking for the Su-57 as a Su-30 replacement down the line.

No clue why the TEDBF is projected to arrive 2038 onwards when indications are it is going thru CDR as of the present.

This could mean either the IN doesn't expect sanction for the IAC -2 before 2030 in which case we'd commission it around 2040

OR

The IN is playing sneaky & at some point after 2030 plans to revive its demand for additional Rafales. Do remember the original MRCBF tender was for 57 nos which was slashed to 26 nos with the possibility of extending the contract in the future for fresh purchases - a std feature of all our tender requirements.

This would also mean we plan to operate the INS Vikramaditya & its air complement the MiG-29K all the way till 2040. Frankly I've my doubts if both of them can last the distance in which case we forget using it as a trainer AC.

What this also does is push the plans for additional ACs - the 65,000 Tonners with or without the proposed N rectors further into the future & with it a possible N-AMCA.

 

[Ayan Barat]

700M way before FF of 1/3rd sized prototype.

⅓rd sized prototype is not the emphasis here, because even that ⅓ is full sized in itself with three turbojet engines

As for funding
$33 million in 2017, series A
$100 million in 2019, series B
$60 million in 2022, USAF funds
Dec 2022 and taxi tests starts

Was not sure about the exact timeline of this remaining $500 million Vs the first flight but even if you assume then also it won't change the grand scheme of things

We can easily achieve this, we just need a Parrikar or will or whatever it's called.

 

[Anants]

If we're talking avionics then most of the avionics of Tejas can be used in TEDBF
If we're talking about engines then both Mk-II and TEDBF are going to use the same engine, just double the amount

TEDBF is going to share engines with AMCA.

So I don't know how exactly this COTS thing is going to affect us in TEDBF because we also have pretty much the same level of prerequisite, at least in plug-n-play technology as those guguys.

TEDBF is AMCA in another skin. Unless you have cots for AMCA ready, you can't have TEDBF. Actually TEDBF shall be stepping stone to AMCA MK2 in terms of avionics.

Stretched Timelines for TEDBF because french tedbf shall come earlier. It gives Navy enough bandwidth to rethink reimagine original inhouse tedbf later.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

No clue why the TEDBF is projected to arrive 2038 onwards when indications are it is going thru CDR as of the present.

This could mean either the IN doesn't expect sanction for the IAC -2 before 2030 in which case we'd commission it around 2040

OR

The IN is playing sneaky & at some point after 2030 plans to revive its demand for additional Rafales. Do remember the original MRCBF tender was for 57 nos which was slashed to 26 nos with the possibility of extending the contract in the future for fresh purchases - a std feature of all our tender requirements.

This would also mean we plan to operate the INS Vikramaditya & its air complement the MiG-29K all the way till 2040. Frankly I've my doubts if both of them can last the distance in which case we forget using it as a trainer AC.

What this also does is push the plans for additional ACs - the 65,000 Tonners with or without the proposed N rectors further into the future & with it a possible N-AMCA.

If navy can somehow get GoI to start on IAC 2 early, they'll get Rafales for it. And honestly from how much our establishment likes to dilly dally on R&D, I don't think the TEDBF is an option in any reasonable timeframe. Waiting on Navy to float the idea of a Naval AMCA in the coming years. Vikramaditya won't last till 2040, it's already back in for another overhaul. Mig-29Ks have nice T/W ratio off the ramp and they will be kept around till they have decent airframe life.

 

[Azaad]

If navy can somehow get GoI to start on IAC 2 early, they'll get Rafales for it.

Looks difficult tbh. The IN is already tied up in Project 75 I , SSNs , 26 nos Rafale M , 3 nos additional Scorpenes with more SSNs & potentially the Project 76 in the pipeline post 2030. Where's the money going to come from in the immediate future ?

The other services will be up in arms if the MoD will keep patronizing the IN all the time.

Hence IAC -2 post 2030 or at least it looks like that with the prospective date of the TEDBF pushed to 2038.

And honestly from how much our establishment likes to dilly dally on R&D, I don't think the TEDBF is an option in any reasonable timeframe.

I don't think they'd go easy on the R&D . It's just the certification part which'd take longer given the complexity of the project & the first time we're attempting it . Assuming they get sanction for the TEDBF in 2026 which is next year , add 3 years to realise the prototype & 1 year for FF. That's 2030. Add another 6-7 years for certification & you're closer to the prospective date of 2038 announced for mfg .

Waiting on Navy to float the idea of a Naval AMCA in the coming years.

I don't think the IN will go in for the AMCA before 2040-45 timelines. As things stand we will get the prototype for FF somewhere AFTER 2035 most likely around 2037-38. Add 5-6 years for certification. It's around that time you're likely to see sanction for a N-AMCA if at all .

Vikramaditya won't last till 2040, it's already back in for another overhaul.

Yes , that's what it looks like. However the IN has plenty of experience in flogging dead horses. They ran the INS Vikrant & INS Virat which were analogous to a patient on ventilator till they couldn't run it anymore before scrapping it. Compared to that there's still some life left in the INS Vikramaditya .

Mig-29Ks have nice T/W ratio off the ramp and they will be kept around till they have decent airframe life.

It's not so much the life of their air frames as their availability rate which has always been a matter of concern along with their build quality. Frankly another 10-15 years at sea & they won't be up for anything except retirement.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Old Mount for 76mm Otomelara STRALES (DART)



New Mount for 76mm Otomelara Sovraponte (DART) (Italian for "above deck")





Specifications



https://weaponsystems.net/system/1558-76mm Sovraponte

 

[Indianhawk]

cancel tedbf.View attachment 24593

Well it seems ADA atleast has started giving so sobering timelines.
Reality is setting in. Which is good.

This also clears that more rafales will come for both navy and airforce in the meantime.

I guess rafale will be the new su30 mki. Reliable workhorse which we will keep procuring while we perfect Amca and tedbf.

 

[Indianhawk]

TEDBF is going to share engines with AMCA.

TEDBF is AMCA in another skin. Unless you have cots for AMCA ready, you can't have TEDBF. Actually TEDBF shall be stepping stone to AMCA MK2 in terms of avionics.

Stretched Timelines for TEDBF because french tedbf shall come earlier. It gives Navy enough bandwidth to rethink reimagine original inhouse tedbf later.

Very true. Tedbf will be inspired by rafale in design and Amca in everything else.
Navy might want to model it after rafale f5 to be as close to 5th gen as possible with it's 4.5 gen airframe.

Let's see what changes are brought forward in rafale f5.

Besides navy can take it slow. New carrier isn't anywhere near.

 

[Indianhawk]

If navy can somehow get GoI to start on IAC 2 early, they'll get Rafales for it. And honestly from how much our establishment likes to dilly dally on R&D, I don't think the TEDBF is an option in any reasonable timeframe. Waiting on Navy to float the idea of a Naval AMCA in the coming years. Vikramaditya won't last till 2040, it's already back in for another overhaul. Mig-29Ks have nice T/W ratio off the ramp and they will be kept around till they have decent airframe life.

AMCA won't be navalised .has to be a ground up naval design.

Once vikrant gets all it's rafales all vikramaditya has to do is to remain operational whenever vikrant is in refit/ maintenance. So that we have atleast one carrier in ocean all the time.
When vikrant is in water Vikram can take it easy.
That way it can serve us for 20-25 years easily.

 

[Azaad]

View: https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1888541859976544539?s=19

Works out to 4.25 - 4.5 billion USD & as the tweet at the bottom of this post clarifies, this doesn't even include either the cost or the fitment of the AIP. That should be another billion USD.

Add to that 5-6 billion USD for the 2 nos SSN. Then if we were to factor jizia to Trump, thrown in a few P-8 I . Add to that the Sea Guardians the IN is getting.

Any wonder then the IN isn't going full steam ahead with the TEDBF. Where are we going to get the money to fund the IAC-2 from ?


View: https://twitter.com/wartrophy_414/status/1888604448701706451?s=19

 

[randombully]

I know its doesn't make any sense, but we kinda need it, navy doesn't have any options other than maybe mass importing naval rafale, given that we're procuring IAF rafales and production issues there too, its either gonna be quite late or expensive af. Naval LCA failed and naval AMCA isn't an option given that normal AMCA hasn't materialized yet. Naval airwing is fucked even more than Air force atm. tedbf, while its gonna be less technological advanced than AMCA, is needed as a stepping stone for for future 5th gen naval fighter.

If it will be inducted in 2038, we can as well start working on naval amca, bigger folding wings, stronger undercarraige.

 

[randombully]

A team of 50 people, with a budget of $200 million built this clean sheet, radical design in 3 years despite pandemic...
View attachment 24601
...so it's just baffling how a country with tens of billions in defence budget, multiple government owned establishment and a workforce of tens of thousands can't prioritize a project of such national importance

It's tech demonstrator of a "super sonic" jet.
The only thing new about it is that the design minimizes noise and Shockwaves caused by supersonic flight.
Another thing, most of the subcomponents/LRU used in it were already present in USA.
So stop comparing "fighter jets" to this.
Even if we don't count our delayed timelines, even then Every foreign fighter program took 15-20+ years to deliver.

 

[Ayan Barat]

It's tech demonstrator of a "super sonic" jet.
The only thing new about it is that the design minimizes noise and Shockwaves caused by supersonic flight.
Another thing, most of the subcomponents/LRU used in it were already present in USA.
So stop comparing "fighter jets" to this.
Even if we don't count our delayed timelines, even then Every foreign fighter program took 15-20+ years to deliver.

We South Asians have this unique ability of drawing tangents; give us a circle of any diameter and we'll start drawing tangents with it. Ain't it cool!?

Arguments so far...
> It's a sub-scale demonstrator [yeah, but it's not some RC sized puny jet; it's a fighter sized manned aircraft]
> The budget is not $200 but $700 million [even if a $1 billion budget, it's not a project of national importance...it's on us to pump more funds]
> Everything was COTS from avionics to engine [if even after having an assembly line of Tejas, your complaint is lack of COTS component then you should probably leave defence & aerospace and star a shop for CPU...get plenty of COTS component]
> Only thing new is minimising noise and shockwave [do you have any idea how significant that will be in the whole history of aviation? If it's so cool to belittle something by saying "only thing" so tell me what's so radical in TEDBF? A folding wing or DSI?]

The actual comment of Corvus, on which I replied was simply "Problem here is, TEDBF is not even in development..." My point was, we can also build "a plane" that's currently not in development in three years so that we can pitch it for procurement in the 2028 timeline.

Every foreign fighter program took 15-20+ years to deliver.

The problem with these kind of statements is that it takes just one statement to negate

ATF's RFP was released in 86 and by 97 the winner was selected, first unit delivered for trials.

11 years for something that was being made for the very first time in aviation history and here you can't make a further development of Tejas in 3 years

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Well it seems ADA atleast has started giving so sobering timelines.
Reality is setting in. Which is good.

This also clears that more rafales will come for both navy and airforce in the meantime.

I guess rafale will be the new su30 mki. Reliable workhorse which we will keep procuring while we perfect Amca and tedbf.

we have like 270 Su-30 MKIs, So are we ordering like 150 rafales[ ?

 

[Rai89]

View: https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1888541859976544539?s=19

Works out to 4.25 - 4.5 billion USD & as the tweet at the bottom of this post clarifies, this doesn't even include either the cost or the fitment of the AIP. That should be another billion USD.

Add to that 5-6 billion USD for the 2 nos SSN. Then if we were to factor jizia to Trump, thrown in a few P-8 I . Add to that the Sea Guardians the IN is getting.

Any wonder then the IN isn't going full steam ahead with the TEDBF. Where are we going to get the money to fund the IAC-2 from ?


View: https://twitter.com/wartrophy_414/status/1888604448701706451?s=19

If 3 more scorpenes are going to cost 4.5 billions without the AIP I would rather we just built SSNs until a indigenous SSK can be developed. Why is a non-AIP , regular sized SSK so expensive? It isn't even a cutting edge design like the German or South Korean new SSKs.