Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Gandaberunda]

Why navy not supporting Navy-LCA ?

Navy doesn’t operate single engine jets on career and they’re range less to operate from shore based facility.

 

[ezsasa]

This can also be termed passing the parcel. Previously the haggling was between the government & each individual service, now it'd be between GoI / MoD & the CDS's office on the one hand & on the other hand it will be between the CDS's office & individual services.

A direct consequence of this was the stand off between CDS Gen Rawat & ACM Chaudhari over the mode of procurement of the Rafales with the result things had to wait for the ACM to demit office for there to be any movement on this issue.

The CAPEX sure has grown . From ~ INR 1.7 lakh crores to ~ INR 1.8 lakh crores of which in case of the former only ~ INR 1.6 lakh crores could be spent by the services with the rest returned to the CFI.

The increase as you can see over last year's budgeted CAPEX is ~ 5.5% . Just about takes care of inflation IMHO.

not for defence and home ministries. this was done during parrikar's time and everyone's favourite tai continued with it, forces had complained that going for finance approvals all over again upon fiscal year lapse is increasing the time span of procurements.

technically unused funds never left consolidated fund of India, it's the allocation being rolled over instead of meter being reset to zero.

The Central government is considering stopping rollover of unutilised funds to the next financial year, barring in some key ministries such as defence and home affairs, in order to ensure better fiscal prudence and utilisation of funds among various ministries.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/bu...r-of-unused-funds-to-next-fiscal-1965333.html

Government may stop rollover of unused funds to next fiscal

NEW DELHI: The Central government is considering stopping rollover of unutilised funds to the next financial year, barring in some key ministries such as defenc

www.newindianexpress.com

 

[Azaad]

not for defence and home ministries. this was done during parrikar's time and everyone's favourite tai continued with it, forces had complained that going for finance approvals all over again upon fiscal year lapse is increasing the time span of procurements.

technically unused funds never left consolidated fund of India, it's the allocation being rolled over instead of meter being reset to zero.


https://www.newindianexpress.com/bu...r-of-unused-funds-to-next-fiscal-1965333.html

Government may stop rollover of unused funds to next fiscal

NEW DELHI: The Central government is considering stopping rollover of unutilised funds to the next financial year, barring in some key ministries such as defenc

www.newindianexpress.com

Indeed ! So the way I understand it is of the last year's CAPEX of INR 1.72 lakh crores only INR 1.6 lakh crores could be spent.

Of the balance budgeted amount of INR 12 ,000 crores , the current CAPEX is hiked to the tune of INR 8,000 crores. That's still a loss of INR 4,000 crores.

 

[KAB7777]

Navy doesn’t operate single engine jets on career and they’re range less to operate from shore based facility.

Does the Sea Harrier not ring a bell? It had a single Rolls Royce Pegasus 106 engine.
It’s more likely that due to the low real estate onboard, they’d rather have an Aircraft with more legs. Though I still see merit for the Dual Seat Trainer version of the LCA-N.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Does the Sea Harrier not ring a bell? It had a single Rolls Royce Pegasus 106 engine.
It’s more likely that due to the low real estate onboard, they’d rather have an Aircraft with more legs. Though I still see merit for the Dual Seat Trainer version of the LCA-N.

Weapons loadout is poor in N-LCA. Other than that it is satisfies the Navy, we are manufacturing N-LCA for some time. Navy is looking it as an advance trainer which can do carrier landing - take off practice. Then move forward to MIG-29K and Rafale.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

While we are sad about the TEDBF timelines. I think the timeline is something true from ADA perspective.

Reasons:

1. Till now the program is supported only by Navy.
2. IN operates two AC with 3rd AC will not going to come soon. We postponed it for more SSK and other ships.
3. Now the case of TEDBF is even less. IN wants the Rafale-M 26 units to support ACs. This is more than enough for current Carriers we have.
4. With no support for TEDBF, program went down in priority list. IAF is in dire strait due to raising tech gap and the following programs like MWF, AMCA taking major priority.
5. Thus the current timeline where MWF followed by AMCA.
6. TEDBF have an outside chance, if IAF get on board. Since it is benchmarked against Rafale with similar performance. But IAF will not through away MRFA. Thus again the priority goes down.
7. 2040 is a tricky period. If AMCA goes smoothly, IN will simply jump to 5th GEN bandwagon.
8. At present TEDBF may become a paper plane if AMCA become success.

 

[ezsasa]

Indeed ! So the way I understand it is of the last year's CAPEX of INR 1.72 lakh crores only INR 1.6 lakh crores could be spent.

Of the balance budgeted amount of INR 12 ,000 crores , the current CAPEX is hiked to the tune of INR 8,000 crores. That's still a loss of INR 4,000 crores.

the exact number of actuals for current fiscal, we will it from next year's budget document. i had made a table of actuals vs budget in the previous forum, they have been years where this gormint has spent more than the budget. if there is a genuine case, this gormint will spend more than allocated budget, that's not an issue.

 

[Indianhawk]

This can also be termed passing the parcel. Previously the haggling was between the government & each individual service, now it'd be between GoI / MoD & the CDS's office on the one hand & on the other hand it will be between the CDS's office & individual services.

A direct consequence of this was the stand off between CDS Gen Rawat & ACM Chaudhari over the mode of procurement of the Rafales with the result things had to wait for the ACM to demit office for there to be any movement on this issue.

The CAPEX sure has grown . From ~ INR 1.7 lakh crores to ~ INR 1.8 lakh crores of which in case of the former only ~ INR 1.6 lakh crores could be spent by the services with the rest returned to the CFI.

The increase as you can see over last year's budgeted CAPEX is ~ 5.5% . Just about takes care of inflation IMHO.

Capex growth which I assumed as 10% per annum on average is over longer term. It won't be linear growth.
In lean years it will be low and in years of big bang deals it will be high.

Any which way our procurement policies are still a mess. So government signal is clear they will only budget upon what forces can actually spend.
As other members pointed out govt will spend more than budget if required.

Good thing is more and more domestic procurement means our capex goes further and further every passing year.

 

[Binayak95]

Does the Sea Harrier not ring a bell? It had a single Rolls Royce Pegasus 106 engine.
It’s more likely that due to the low real estate onboard, they’d rather have an Aircraft with more legs. Though I still see merit for the Dual Seat Trainer version of the LCA-N.

The SHAR was a compromise and if you think about it, the SeaHawk was also single engined - the problem is IN lost too many SHARs and consequently too many pilots to ever seriously take a singe engined fighter seriously. Even the Goshawk which is the navalised Hawk trainer used by the USN only operates when the carrier is close to the airbases in continental US.

 

[Blademaster]

The SHAR was a compromise and if you think about it, the SeaHawk was also single engined - the problem is IN lost too many SHARs and consequently too many pilots to ever seriously take a singe engined fighter seriously. Even the Goshawk which is the navalised Hawk trainer used by the USN only operates when the carrier is close to the airbases in continental US.

Do you think that TEDBF will be obsolete by the time it gets ready for production in 2038?

 

[randombully]

Do you think that TEDBF will be obsolete by the time it gets ready for production in 2038?

As a main frontline fighter for navy= hard yes.

By 2038 all "non stealth" jets will be backline fighters.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Perhaps the least absurd jizya

"The US has been asked to quote a reasonable price for the six P-8I aircraft for the proposed government-to-government deal under its foreign military sales (FMS) programme. It will then be seen whether it is feasible or not"

Ahead of PM Modi’s US trip, India eyes new military plane deal | India News - The Times of India

India News: India is reconsidering the procurement of six more P-8I maritime patrol aircraft from the US to enhance surveillance capabilities in the Indian Ocean

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

 

[Hari Sud]

Perhaps the least absurd jizya

"The US has been asked to quote a reasonable price for the six P-8I aircraft for the proposed government-to-government deal under its foreign military sales (FMS) programme. It will then be seen whether it is feasible or not"

Ahead of PM Modi’s US trip, India eyes new military plane deal | India News - The Times of India

India News: India is reconsidering the procurement of six more P-8I maritime patrol aircraft from the US to enhance surveillance capabilities in the Indian Ocean

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Personally; Modi to avoid tariffs will sign on the dotted line.

 

[Miss Firing]

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/chinas-shadow-fleet-is-coming-to-the-indian-ocean-and-india-has-no-counter

China's Shadow Fleet Is Coming To The Indian Ocean, And India Has No Counter​

 

[Azaad]

Perhaps the least absurd jizya

"The US has been asked to quote a reasonable price for the six P-8I aircraft for the proposed government-to-government deal under its foreign military sales (FMS) programme. It will then be seen whether it is feasible or not"

Ahead of PM Modi’s US trip, India eyes new military plane deal | India News - The Times of India

India News: India is reconsidering the procurement of six more P-8I maritime patrol aircraft from the US to enhance surveillance capabilities in the Indian Ocean

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Looks like the GE F-414 deal was linked to the JV for the Stryker & Javelin . This particular deal is jizia , not that the previous one for Strykers wasn't but all said & done I wonder what repercussions would this have on the IN's MRMR project not in terms of capabilities for it's chalk & cheese really but in terms of the impact on the budget.

Modi's defence expenditure has been incremental not exponential & there's nothing to suggest it'd be exponential in the future given his track record.

 

[Bleh]

TEDBF would Rival 5.5 gen jets except stealth.

View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1887025031965794658
It will basically be amca in another skin, that's why I was saying they should gave gone with stealthy skin.

WHY IS IT IN ANOTHER SKIN?.. Could've used the same twin-F414 fuselage with IWB & worked on it.

 

[randombully]

WHY IS IT IN ANOTHER SKIN?.. Could've used the same twin-F414 fuselage with IWB & worked on it.View attachment 24961

WHY IS IT IN ANOTHER SKIN?

That's exactly what I said, I they are making it to rival amca 5/5.5 gen jets of future in terms of advancement and it's gonna come out in 2038, then why the fuck they are going for non stealthy airframe?

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

So the logic was a STOBAR capable Stealth Jet empty weight would be too much and all that extra weight of internal bays and such has a penalty. Add on to taking off from the ramp with already half-ass payload, the goal is to shave off as much weight as possible.

A CATOBAR carrier is like 15-20 years away and to operationalize a CATOBAR jet, it would be another 5 years.

If there is no internal bay then there is no point of having that stealth skin and instead go for maximum aerodynamic efficiency like rafale which has incredible range for its size and MTOW.

 

[randombully]

So the logic was a STOBAR capable Stealth Jet empty weight would be too much and all that extra weight of internal bays and such has a penalty. Add on to taking off from the ramp with already half-ass payload, the goal is to shave off as much weight as possible.

A CATOBAR carrier is like 15-20 years away and to operationalize a CATOBAR jet, it would be another 5 years.

If there is no internal bay then there is no point of having that stealth skin and instead go for maximum aerodynamic efficiency like rafale which has incredible range for its size and MTOW.

They could have vent kF21 route.
Somewhat worse aerodynamic lift and payload compared to rafale like design but still decent payload.
And can easily develop a "stealth" varient of it. for lower stealth payload as in tip of the spear.
Plus payload will be divided in future between manned jets and Unamanned loyal wingman.

So still a poor choice.

Only navy with an aircraft carriers to operate non stealth jets In 2038-40.
Uk, japan, italy-f35B
France-fcas
Us- f35C, F35B, fa-xx
China-j35C, future 6th gen.

India:- non stealth tedbf.

 

[Azaad]

They could have vent kF21 route.
Somewhat worse aerodynamic lift and payload compared to rafale like design but still decent payload.
And can easily develop a "stealth" varient of it. for lower stealth payload as in tip of the spear.
Plus payload will be divided in future between manned jets and Unamanned loyal wingman.

So still a poor choice.

Only navy with an aircraft carriers to operate non stealth jets In 2038-40.
Uk, japan, italy-f35B
France-fcas
Us- f35C, F35B, fa-xx
China-j35C, future 6th gen.

India:- non stealth tedbf.

Tell me something , when do you expect our ACs to go to the SCS or ECS or the Yellow Sea to challenge China ? If your answer is anywhere between now & 2040 , I won't bother pursuing the matter with you .

However if you claim we lack a 65,000 ton AC with a CATOBAR possibly with N propulsion , a must if we're to take on China in their own backyard , I'd ask you when is it do you expect such an AC to materialize ?

If your answer is post 2050 , then that's exactly when you'd have the N-AMCA or any other analogue of it .