May be they go who knows, but they will teach them about use of drones and modern tactics which they don't want to learn and go old school way like rambo in armour cart out in open. Past debates with professionals have proven it.
After watching para sf's room intervention videos and firing style, do you think they are trained by SAS!? Watch that 3 para sf's firing with green Berets. It's beyond pathetic.
I'm sure he'll write up a good answer. Here's one from my end.
firstly - considerng your first point i.e - Para SF is being used as a glorified infantry unit, you yourselves answered your question - "Is being used"- By who - The Cmdrs in Charge and the Foreign/Domestic Policies.
Coming to the pampore incident, they had to clear 100+ rooms (incl halls, bathrooms and much more each with their own complexity) and even rescue several trapped hostages. The number of SF personnel tasked to clear the building from inside was miniscule compared to the one actually required to do so as a result we first lost Capt Pawan Kumar of 10 SF after which a team of 9 SF were inducted, the task was taken up by Capt Mahajan of 9 para, he set up eternal firebases with marksmen and 40mm to clear out as many rooms from outside before getting inside. There's no way they'd carry 100+ flashbangs with them for entry and all. We lost 3 SF operatives in the bid. The forces in support of the op - incl CRPF QAT and SOG weren't trained in CQB that extensively. The task was clearly meant for NSG and not given to them due to reasons we all know.
SF Operations do not stop at night, they are told to excercise strict ROE, nahi toh bhenchod ham bhi kisi bakarwal ko thok ke chhati peetein.
will try my best to answer the second part some other day. Adios mate
1) para SF is part of infantry, and still now para SF are powerless to get their own identity. Why?
Why is Lt.General Katoch complains that parachute regiment is controlled by officers from airborne units. But the fact is SF units were more in numbers than para airborne, still para SF is powerless!!??
Even after becoming a Lt.general why is Katoch sir and many other para SF high-ranking officers failed to create a seperate SF unit!? While they were in service all of them only care about their promotions, when got retired they write books contains criticism of everyone else.
2) two para SF battalions are permanently deployed in Kashmir with each battalion having 500+ soldiers. Other than them, additional para SF soldiers are deployed there too.. if there are 100+ rooms why not send more para SF guys into the operation!?
There wasn't any hostage situation, locals are asked to vacate the building by terrorists. Those who were inside the building said this to local media at that time.
Bro, Delta Force and Peshmerga joint raid in freeing 70 prisoners was done within 3 hours, they cleared whole prison complex filled with large number of ISIL. So stop justifying para sf's lack of training and skills by saying "there were 100+ rooms" ( which that building doesn't had). Remember, only 2 terrorists were there.
And yes, para SF stoped operation at night, it is nothing new, they do it in most urban operations, you can check the news reports or shiv aroor's book to confirm it.
I will try to answer this as per what little I know .
SAS , and US SFs (all of them ) do train other foreign SFs but the training is not same . For the countries that come under direct alliance like NATO , the training will be somewhat good and throughout but still some of the stuff will be kept from them . Even among Nato countries the training specs depend upon the level of trust/influence/control they have . For example the level of training they would give to Germany will be far better than what they give to turkey in a joint training exercise.
Now for a country like India which is close with Russia and is not under direct influence/control from US / UK the training will be pretty basic whic honestly we already know just some new things here and there , they will never teach us any juicy stuff or new SOPs . Like when paras joined Buds, they just took part in the physical selection part of buds , they were not allowed in the tactical training part .
Can't really blame them either training men needs lots of money and why will they invest in a place they will not get any returns .
Now for Ukraine who has practically become a NATOs vassal state and is fully under their control, they teach SBU everything from A to Z .
So for India to get the proper training we need from them either we need to pick a side and suck their dick and give up our FR sovereignty .
Now some blackpill
For a big ass country like india why the fuck do we need to send our men to other countries , our men have been fighting for the last 30 so years . If they are not able to formulate SOPs and research out new tactics and train their men accordingly and equip their men even after seeing so much blood and combat , no amount of foreign influence will work .
You don't spend on your men , don't give them the management and freedom they need , you don't learn , you don't upgrade but keep on expanding ....... training (with belts) our civ and mil babus is more needed rn .
Both US green Berets and SAS offered help to train para SF, and they also offered help to set up our AFSOD. It was indian army who doesn't want their help.
Man, whatever training SAS Provides to indian SF will be huge one considering para sf's poor quality training.
SAS don't provide drone training.
Green Berets offered help to set up SFTS, indian army denied it(army officials thinks US involvement will compromise tactics of Indian army!!).
Check how a rebel group like Peshmerga's CT division is trained by DELTA.. man they are equipped and trained to nato standards. They are the best CT unit in middle East. The operations they conducted are top notch.
US always wants to improve military to military relationship with india because they knows that political parties changes, but military personnel will be there so it is more efficient to have better military relationship than having a good political relations.
But in India, defence relations means defence deals. No one intrested in joint training or deep SF cooperation. Lt. Gen Katoch explains about this in his book.
Training with others who have more experience will always help. What do you think, why US is so egger send their soldiers to foreign training schools? They are trying to learn from everyone.. like a PhD student.
Also...it's only a problem with units converting to SF after airborne who have had the issue of improper skills. Our SF do observe foriegn SF closely. Here are some examples, the reason for Parampore's mischeif was lack of equipment not tactics in general. You know much time the MoD takes to give clearance for equipment. On top of that most battalions which are Para Airborne converted SF sabootage the supply for SF. I'll explain how
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Now moving onto why Indian SF lack ?
Because of Para Airborne officers and the Chandigarh lobby
tactics are based on equipments. There is no such things like 'we are good at tactics but lack equipments'. Army officials have powers to purchase equipments by their own but they are in 'chalta hai' attitude. They don't always have to go to MOD for approval. If 9, 10, 21 para soldiers are comparatively better equipped than 3, 2, 12 para SF soldiers then it points to the efficiency and seriousness of battalion commanders.
Why Marcos are better equipped than para SF!? Marcos are the least numbered unit in navy, and role Vijaypal sir played in mordanising MARCOS was huge. It shows that man in charge is all that matters
Why no one in para SF care to better equip the unit!?.
No need to blame MoD for incompetence of para SF commanders.
"Why dont Pera EsEph send their soilders to SAS for training ?"
Here's the answer
- In March 1977, the Army Commander's Conference decided to raise a unit resembling the British SAS.
- Aim: Create a true Special Forces unit distinct from existing Para-Commando units.
- Army HQ decided to convert 9 Para (Commando) into an “Experimental Commando Wing” and another Parachute Battalion for mountain operations
- A directive was issued in 1978 to undertake trials for this new organization.
- Conversion began in 1979, with a trial report submitted in May 1982.
- Problems included forgetting previous experiences with Special Forces and a military hierarchy focused on conventional warfare. Existing infantry and parachute units were repeatedly converted to Special Forces roles instead of raising new units.
- was the Indian Army Liaison Officer (IALO) at the School of Infantry in Warminster, UK, he studied the SAS’s operations.
- In 1985, Lt Col Nanavatty visited SAS HQ and reported back, leading to renewed interest in developing Indian Special Forces.
- Lt Col Nanavatty’s report sparked discussions in New Delhi about enhancing Special Forces capabilities.
- Major General Bipin C Joshi, later Chief of Army Staff, supported the reappraisal of Para Commandos to develop a road map for Special Forces.
- After much discussion, Operation Sunray was also created wherein 200 of the best Special forces officers and men would go to Hereford to train, some to Seryat Matkal and others here and there doing other courses.
- The SAS also decided to come to us to train with our guys but our gentlemen officers refused
So.....we lack in our SF capability where ever we do lack not because our guys dont study foriegn SF properly....you can do that all your life...keep researching and studying and yes it will help but the actions taken by people in the Top Brass and Political sphere matter, they matter alot.
Our guys have a good solid understanding of how things work....the thing is they dont have any power in this situation. Why the heck do you not realize this. What sort of jackass are you...you think change in India is not happening because the young and bright and old and sharp did not look into the situation well ? You'll have even you and me as arm chair warriors/experts.
But kya fyda ? People who are at the top level dislike change, they have grown accustomed to it.
Bro, it was in 80s. At that time we doesn't had the financial capacity of what we have today. And Lt Col Rustom K Nanavatty was military attache, that's why he goes to SAS training centre, it doesn't mean para SF are closely studying SAS.
Para SF should have send soldiers to SAS training centre now, but they are not. Man even pakis are sending SSG to SAS training centres till 2017. Why don't send our soldiers because many officers in army thinks they are the best in the world.
Unless officials get out of their superiority complex and false pride noting will change.
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