MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Cheepek]

View: https://x.com/ani_digital/status/1851194878660653540

Lolipop for Trumpwa, i guess

 

[Gessler]

These tenders are nothing but time-pass. Have long said we can't afford 114 foreign 4.5 gens. Best we can do is buy 36 more off the shelf, then press full send on Tejas Mk2.

The problem now is, we waited too long to order the follow-on 36 off the shelf. Now unless we go with full 100+ jet order we aren't gonna get the local production line which means we've no option but depend on the line in France which is fully booked out.


View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1851283005483958579?t=NoEReNiss5a22YYEMtFRow&s=19

I've long maintained that we just don't have the kind of CAPEX needed for 114 jet order and aren't gonna have it till next few years at the least thanks to impending large expenditures on Tejas Mk1A follow-on order (97) and Rafale-M for Navy (26). But by the time we do have the CAPEX in hand, we'll be in the run-up to 2029 elections and no deal with foreign OEM on this scale will be possible due to fear of corruption allegations. But by 2030 the time for ordering large numbers of Tejas Mk2 and funding AMCA Mk1 production will come up. Back to square one.

The only way to get more squadrons in hand in the meantime was through off the shelf batch orders but we didn't go through with them in time. It's been over 8 years since first Rafale deal but we kept waiting.

Now I'm wondering what this timeline means for Navy's intended deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1851283005483958579?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1851283005483958579%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
Not true.
Rafale line is on a ramp to deliver 33 birds a year. It is not without challenge because all the aero supply chain is stressed (mainly bu Airbus), but it's on track.
And there is a plan to go further if needed (probably if a line is pen in India for indian needs)

 

[BON PLAN]

I've long maintained that we just don't have the kind of CAPEX needed for 114 jet order

All depend if you want it 10 / year or 20 / year or....

 

[londonparistokyo]

Rafale is a paper tiger. Halve the budget for MMRCA. Take half of the half and put it entirely into Kaveri, fund that thing until there's an engine. Take the remaining half and fund LCA entirely. Make it 100% indigenous, nothing foreign. Then buy the Russian jet. We already have a lot of Russian jets. Will make it easier for supply chain purposes and Russians may be more willing to set up local supply chain and whatnot.

 

[Spitfire IX]

best Bull Shit of of month.
You really are an ace.....

First piece of BS of the month:

As things were left 10 years ago, Dassault and India could not agree terms to build Rafale on an Indian assembly line. It is pointless selecting Rafale to be built in India if India and Dassault cannot agree how that should be done. Terms need to be agreed before Rafale is considered for selection-not afterwards. As things are, selecting Rafale cannot be expected to result in a contract along Make-in-India lines.

Second piece of BS of the month:

Dassault did not honour its offset agreements with the deal for 36 Rafale. That does not demonstrate a willing to co-operate in deals eg ToT.

I am not saying that Rafale as an aircraft would not be the best selection. I am saying that negotiating a deal is unlikely to reach a successful outcome. It would be more sensible to scrap MRFA and wait for Tejas Mk2. In the meantime, India buy some Armee del'Air Rafales (if available) and M2K, Mig-29, Jaguar frames. Otherwise arrange a Eurofighter Make-in-India deal if terms can be agreed as I outlined above - clear the terms of production, hurdle for any MRFA candidate before anything else.

 

[Fatalis]

Who knows, may be Koreans bring their KF-21 to the competition.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

first nd most important thing india should do in regard to buying 114 fighter plane:-
edit title of "MMRCA or MRFA 2" in "MMRCA or MRFA 3" in every news nd forum. thnx.

 

[RocketMan]

There's no hope left for Imported Airforce . It's all over for us .

 

[samsaptaka]

There's no hope left for Imported Airforce . It's all over for us .

My sympathies bruh...if even after all this GE engine fracas (which I still suspect is not entirely a genuine delay) the GoI and MoD and Finmin Babus don't fund Kaveri engine dev massively and force a concerted effort from both public and pvt industry to get a working engine to be put into atleast AMCA or Tejas MK2 later production units, then yea IAF is utterly doomed. USA will and can kill the GE engines any time it chooses even after they have been delivered and integrated. We are utter fools to have placed our only successful fighter line in the hands of the one who is an expert in twisting the two round things at the base of males.

 

[silentassassin265]

My sympathies bruh...if even after all this GE engine fracas (which I still suspect is not entirely a genuine delay) the GoI and MoD and Finmin Babus don't fund Kaveri engine dev massively and force a concerted effort from both public and pvt industry to get a working engine to be put into atleast AMCA or Tejas MK2 later production units, then yea IAF is utterly doomed. USA will and can kill the GE engines any time it chooses even after they have been delivered and integrated. We are utter fools to have placed our only successful fighter line in the hands of the one who is an expert in twisting the two round things at the base of males.

At this rate pakistan might offer us jf17 as no GE engines are in sight

 

[Bleh]

Then buy the Russian jet. We already have a lot of Russian jets. Will make it easier for supply chain purposes and Russians may be more willing to set up local supply chain and whatnot.

Two critical news as per me...

IAF had been planning to eliminate the Russian fighters in the 1st place, they didn't need Su-35 & Mig-35 failed in some technical trials.

IAF Plans to Eliminate Russian Fighter Jets from MRFA Tender – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Next is that IAF dropped integration of Uttam & Astra, Rudram etc. to the Rafale-M jets, due to the high cost to be paid to the French side for the modifications and the estimated 8-year timeline for completing the integration.

https://www.business-standard.com/amp/external-affairs-defence-security/news/no-indian-radar-astra-missile-on-navy-s-rafale-m-jets-here-s-what-we-know-124093000356_1.html

I think we do desperately need another 2nd source of fighters jets induction (kinda like Talwar class frigates for Navy), a smaller number if not 114 due to cost.
Rafale is having indigenisation-vs-cost roadblock, otherwise had greatest chance. Price issue is better for SH-18, will also allow commonality of engineers with MWF & AMCA, but it'd have been a more likely candidate is Naval F-18 was taken instead of Rafale-M.
Lastly I think Mig-35 gives us a negotiation edge. We already operate 73+39 Mig-29 SMT & Ks remaining. They're gonna get Uttam, Astra etc. We could cut a similar deal for Mig-35 utilising Russia's situation for a 3D TVC engine that can reduce our dependency on American 100kN class engines.

 

[silentassassin265]

Two critical news as per me...

IAF had been planning to eliminate the Russian fighters in the 1st place, they didn't need Su-35 & Mig-35 failed in some technical trials.

IAF Plans to Eliminate Russian Fighter Jets from MRFA Tender – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Next is that IAF dropped integration of Uttam & Astra, Rudram etc. to the Rafale-M jets, due to the high cost to be paid to the French side for the modifications and the estimated 8-year timeline for completing the integration.

https://www.business-standard.com/amp/external-affairs-defence-security/news/no-indian-radar-astra-missile-on-navy-s-rafale-m-jets-here-s-what-we-know-124093000356_1.html

I think we do desperately need another 2nd source of fighters jets induction (kinda like Talwar class frigates for Navy), a smaller number if not 114 due to cost.
Rafale is having indigenisation-vs-cost roadblock, otherwise had greatest chance. Price issue is better for SH-18, will also allow commonality of engineers with MWF & AMCA, but it'd have been a more likely candidate is Naval F-18 was taken instead of Rafale-M.
Lastly I think Mig-35 gives us a negotiation edge. We already operate 62+43 Mig-29 SMT & Ks remaining. They're gonna get Uttam, Astra etc. We could cut a similar deal for Mig-35 utilising Russia's situation for a 3D TVC engine that can reduce our dependency on American 100kN class engines.

American fighter jets are gone case now, even if trump sell us jets the next government may stop the delivery.
Co producing su 57 jets with Russia seems better idea

 

[Bleh]

American fighter jets are gone case now, even if trump sell us jets the next government may stop the delivery.

Su+-7 is completely out of the picture by now... Even Su-75 Checkmate isn't on offer, meaning is still at wooden mock-up stage.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has obtained licensed production for RD-33MK variant in 2007 and so far has produced 140+ engines.
That's what we need. The 3D TVC RD-133 engine will be even better alternative for our desi jets.
It's that ,or Rafale & Snecma.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is a paper tiger. Halve the budget for MMRCA. Take half of the half and put it entirely into Kaveri, fund that thing until there's an engine. Take the remaining half and fund LCA entirely. Make it 100% indigenous, nothing foreign. Then buy the Russian jet. We already have a lot of Russian jets. Will make it easier for supply chain purposes and Russians may be more willing to set up local supply chain and whatnot.

Your plan was the indian one 30 years ago, at least.
It failed.

 

[BON PLAN]

As things were left 10 years ago, Dassault and India could not agree terms to build Rafale on an Indian assembly line.

Wrong.
It was not between Dassault and India, but between Dassault and HAL. Not the same thing.
About HAL, remember the first upgraded Mirage 2000 that was lost at its first flight. Or see how impressive the production rate of Tejas is....

 

[BON PLAN]

Dassault did not honour its offset agreements with the deal for 36 Rafale. That does not demonstrate a willing to co-operate in deals eg ToT.

Yes, but they only have to pay a very limited fine because they were just a little bit late.
You may note that it was not taken into account when India selected Rafale over SH18 for indian navy. So only a adventure.

 

[BON PLAN]

Who knows, may be Koreans bring their KF-21 to the competition.

All but not mature.
the first serially produce is even not born.

 

[BON PLAN]

Next is that IAF dropped integration of Uttam & Astra, Rudram etc. to the Rafale-M jets, due to the high cost to be paid to the French side for the modifications and the estimated 8-year timeline for completing the integration.
https://www.business-standard.com/a...-jets-here-s-what-we-know-124093000356_1.html

It's not the whole truth.
Yes UTAAM integration would be very coslty. But Astra integration is say to be on track. Rudram I don't know (this subject is very new).

 

[Spitfire IX]

It's not the whole truth.
Yes UTAAM integration would be very coslty. But Astra integration is say to be on track. Rudram I don't know (this subject is very new).

What would be the point of integrating UTTAM on Rafale? Sounds like integration for its own sake. If it works, don't fix it (and spend lots of money in the process).