Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[VictorDelta4]

Technically Armed forces should consider the protection of Soldiers rather submitting to an Religious orgs. Their head is an open target and with increasing availability of tech even to an Militants these people will be slaughtered.

That is what any sane military with sound leadership would do, however Indian military is a basket case when it comes to procurement decisions.

 

[VictorDelta4]

Double Barrel Anti Drone Shotty
View attachment 7608

@johny_baba With IA actively using shotguns to train against FPV attacks, how likely is it that OFB can produce something similar to a Benelli M4 in a short time span? Or are there semi auto options available within the Indian market?
Turks made a huge industry out of M4 clones and flooding the US Markets as a cheaper alternative.

 

[Mr.Evil]

@johny_baba With IA actively using shotguns to train against FPV attacks, how likely is it that OFB can produce something similar to a Benelli M4 in a short time span? Or are there semi auto options available within the Indian market?
Turks made a huge industry out of M4 clones and flooding the US Markets as a cheaper alternative.

Isn’t OFB 12bore the same thing?it is way faster and smoother aswell

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services) | Government of India

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services), 12 BORE PUMP ACTION GUN(NYLON BUTT)

ddpdoo.gov.in

Ishapore aswell

 

[Mr.Evil]

This is a very good step towards anti drone stuff keep 1-2 shottys in a squad and boom you are 90% safe

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1827730187557167148

 

[Clawreed]

Any reason why Sikh soldiers does not upgrade to modern standards like using Ballistic helmets. High command thinks this will hurt their religious beliefs?

If one has a chance to wear a good ballistic helmet and doesn't wear it, then he is an idiot. Do they also have long hair ?

 

[VictorDelta4]

Isn’t OFB 12bore the same thing?it is way faster and smoother aswell

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services) | Government of India

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services), 12 BORE PUMP ACTION GUN(NYLON BUTT)

ddpdoo.gov.in

Ishapore aswell
View attachment 7632

Yeah it might be but its single shot with bare minimum round capacity. I was wondering about Semi auto for a higher rate of fire and a higher magazine capacity.. Something on the lines of a Benelli M4 or a Beretta A300.

 

[VictorDelta4]

This is a very good step towards anti drone stuff keep 1-2 shottys in a squad and boom you are 90% safe

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1827730187557167148

The Rus Ukr War has definitely proved the efficiency of both FPV drones and semi auto shotguns as a deterrent.

 

[Mr.Evil]

Yeah it might be but its single shot with bare minimum round capacity. I was wondering about Semi auto for a higher rate of fire and a higher magazine capacity.. Something on the lines of a Benelli M4 or a Beretta A300.

We can do some tweaks according to the requirements

 

[VictorDelta4]

We can do some tweaks according to the requirements

yeah that is what I was wondering as well.

 

[Ayan Barat]

@johny_baba With IA actively using shotguns to train against FPV attacks, how likely is it that OFB can produce something similar to a Benelli M4 in a short time span? Or are there semi auto options available within the Indian market?
Turks made a huge industry out of M4 clones and flooding the US Markets as a cheaper alternative.

Semi-auto shotguns have always been a NPB in India. So right from the introduction of Browning Auto-5 here, whoever has the capacity bought a semi-auto. Infact Auto-5 is quite famous here.

Bhargav Arms has manufactured one for quite a long time. Recently Webley & Scott have introduced one. A firm by the name Vinveli imports CZ's semi-autos. Other than these there are numerous small manufacturers or importers; so small that you won't even find their websites.

As for OFB, they might take some time. Not to make one from scratch, but to perfect it. Because as now OFB has absolutely no experience in even manufacturing a semi-auto shotgun; let alone designing one.

But the bigger issue here is that shotguns are one of the worst option you have for FPV defence. Not just hard-kill, it's even worse than soft-kill. How are you going to detect the drone? How close it would be at that moment? How fast can you aim your gun (remember it's an aerial target, you need proper lead) while it's diving at full speed? And even if you manage to successfully shoot it, here comes the most challenging part...what will you use to shoot it?

If you use buckshots then you will for sure crash it, even if not detonate it. But with buckshots the hit probability would be abysmal. So to increase hit probability you use birdshots. But then birdshots are so tiny and short ranged that even after one or two hits, the UAV won't stop diving at your vector because of its momentum, let alone getting detonated.
So here you've a dilemma.

 

[Clawreed]

@johny_baba With IA actively using shotguns to train against FPV attacks, how likely is it that OFB can produce something similar to a Benelli M4 in a short time span? Or are there semi auto options available within the Indian market?
Turks made a huge industry out of M4 clones and flooding the US Markets as a cheaper alternative.

There's stallion semi auto shotgun . But it's 4+1 capacity.

 

[Baseplate]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/p0RRvB3Pkw0

this is roughly how a platoon attack is done , thus the platoon must be configured accordingly .

In our case :

This composition has many loopholes and does not properly exploits the capabilities of Sig neither covers its weaknesses .

A GOOD SQUAD WEPON PROFILE in our case (according to me ( i am no pro , just a retard ).

Two teams make up a squad, which has four to 10 soldiers. In an infantry squad, the teams divide duties: one serves as a base-of-fire element, while the other serves as the maneuver element. A staff sergeant is often in charge.

The base of fire element sets up an SBF position that provides fire support to the maneuver element that moves up to the objective to assault .
As per their roles , the base of fire element occupies positions that afford the best possible cover and concealment, a clear view, and clear fields of fire. They must provide good volume of accurate fire on the objective , for this role having guns that can effectively engage from a long distance accurately and possess good lethality is ideal . For this role Sigs with sights will work good .
Thus in our case 2 men with Sigs , one Negev and One RCL ( or replace RCL with a Sig and one Shmel/AT4 ) and one with AK 203(ammunition carrier for RCL or a standard ammunition carrier ) will be an ideal composition . Having a Sniper/DMR with SVD attached will also be good .

The role of the maneuver element that moves up to the objective to assault . This fight will take place up close and would need good firepower , thus using guns like Sigs that are bulky , have limited mag capacity and are not manageable in Full Auto is not ideal . For this job they need guns that are compact , easy to handle and control and have good capacity . Ak203 will be perfect for this job .
Thus in our case having 4 men with Ak203 (one/two of them with a ubgl or Mbgl ) and one Negev will be best .

In total
5 Ak203 (with red dots/holographics , one or two with magnifiers as per need ).
2 or 3 Sig716 with 4x .
2 Negev
1 RCL ( can be replaced as per need with Shmel/AT4/Man portable Mortar/MBGL/UBGL)

This is just a vanilla squad , Drones, Anti drone , Anti Armor stuff can be added on as per need

What do yall think , Correct or add on on this composition .

 

[vampyrbladez]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/p0RRvB3Pkw0

this is roughly how a platoon attack is done , thus the platoon must be configured accordingly .

In our case :

This composition has many loopholes and does not properly exploits the capabilities of Sig neither covers its weaknesses .

A GOOD SQUAD WEPON PROFILE in our case (according to me ( i am no pro , just a retard ).

Two teams make up a squad, which has four to 10 soldiers. In an infantry squad, the teams divide duties: one serves as a base-of-fire element, while the other serves as the maneuver element. A staff sergeant is often in charge.

The base of fire element sets up an SBF position that provides fire support to the maneuver element that moves up to the objective to assault .
As per their roles , the base of fire element occupies positions that afford the best possible cover and concealment, a clear view, and clear fields of fire. They must provide good volume of accurate fire on the objective , for this role having guns that can effectively engage from a long distance accurately and possess good lethality is ideal . For this role Sigs with sights will work good .
Thus in our case 2 men with Sigs , one Negev and One RCL ( or replace RCL with a Sig and one Shmel/AT4 ) and one with AK 203(ammunition carrier for RCL or a standard ammunition carrier ) will be an ideal composition . Having a Sniper/DMR with SVD attached will also be good .

The role of the maneuver element that moves up to the objective to assault . This fight will take place up close and would need good firepower , thus using guns like Sigs that are bulky , have limited mag capacity and are not manageable in Full Auto is not ideal . For this job they need guns that are compact , easy to handle and control and have good capacity . Ak203 will be perfect for this job .
Thus in our case having 4 men with Ak203 (one/two of them with a ubgl or Mbgl ) and one Negev will be best .

In total
5 Ak203 (with red dots/holographics , one or two with magnifiers as per need ).
2 or 3 Sig716 with 4x .
2 Negev
1 RCL ( can be replaced as per need with Shmel/AT4/Man portable Mortar/MBGL/UBGL)

This is just a vanilla squad , Drones, Anti drone , Anti Armor stuff can be added on as per need

What do yall think , Correct or add on on this composition .

I proposed this in DFI. Made some modifications for scopes and weapon profiles.

Omega Team - 2 Man : (Command)

Section Leader - (Havildar)
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Tonbo EK Gen2
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm)

LMG Gunner
1 x Negev NG7 LMG/SAW (7.62x51 mm)

Bravo Team - 4 Man : (Anvil)

Team Leader - (Lance Naik)
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm)

Rifleman/ Grenadier
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) with BEL Holo
1 x OFB Multi Grenade Launcher (40 mm)

Rifleman/ Marksman
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Optel x4 scope

Rifleman/ Ammunition Carrier
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo

LMG Gunner
1 x Negev NG7 LMG/SAW (7.62x51 mm)

Alpha Team - 4 Man : ( Hammer)

Team Leader - 2IC (Naik)
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm)

Rifleman/ Ammunition Carrier
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) with BEL Holo
1 x UBGL ( 40 mm)

Rifleman
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo

Rifleman
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Optel x4 scope

Rifleman / Missileer
1 x Carl Gustav RCL (84 mm)
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) with BEL Holo

Weapon Profile


Sig 716i with Holo-Magnifier


Sig 716i with Optel x4 scope


Ak 203 with BEL Holo


Negev 7 LMG


Sig 716i with Tonbo EK Gen2

AK 203 with UBGL

OFB MGL and RCL

OFB Browning Hi Power

Order of Battle

• Team Omega has access to Loitering Munitions which can scout and locate enemy targets
• Once enemy hard point has been identified, Team Bravo gets into position to assault objective
• Team Alpha opens up the engagement and lays down fire using RCL and DMR to engage the enemy
• Team Omega opens up with LMG to provide cover fire for Team Bravo and uses loitering munitions to takeout snipers, FPV operators, LMG/MMG nests
• Team Alpha then opens up and moves towards objective to assault and clear and hold
• Team Omega then proceeds to flank and further pin down enemy hardpoint
• Once enemy hardpoint suppression is maximised, Team Bravo then moves in to box enemy and destroy the objective

 

[Ayan Barat]

I proposed this in DFI. Made some modifications for scopes and weapon profiles.

Omega Team - 2 Man : (Command)

Section Leader - (Havildar)
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Tonbo EK Gen2
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm)

LMG Gunner
1 x Negev NG7 LMG/SAW (7.62x51 mm)

Bravo Team - 4 Man : (Anvil)

Team Leader - (Lance Naik)
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm)

Rifleman/ Grenadier
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) with BEL Holo
1 x OFB Multi Grenade Launcher (40 mm)

Rifleman/ Marksman
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Optel x4 scope

Rifleman/ Ammunition Carrier
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo

LMG Gunner
1 x Negev NG7 LMG/SAW (7.62x51 mm)

Alpha Team - 4 Man : ( Hammer)

Team Leader - 2IC (Naik)
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo
1 x Browning Hi Power (9x19 mm)

Rifleman/ Ammunition Carrier
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) with BEL Holo
1 x UBGL ( 40 mm)

Rifleman
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Holo-Magnifier combo

Rifleman
1 x Sig 716i (7.62x51 mm) with Optel x4 scope

Rifleman / Missileer
1 x Carl Gustav RCL (84 mm)
1 x AK 203 (7.62x39 mm) with BEL Holo

Weapon Profile

View attachment 7838
Sig 716i with Holo-Magnifier

View attachment 7839
Sig 716i with Optel x4 scope

View attachment 7840
Ak 203 with BEL Holo

View attachment 7841
Negev 7 LMG

View attachment 7842
Sig 716i with Tonbo EK Gen2

AK 203 with UBGL

OFB MGL and RCL

OFB Browning Hi Power

Order of Battle

• Team Omega has access to Loitering Munitions which can scout and locate enemy targets
• Once enemy hard point has been identified, Team Bravo gets into position to assault objective
• Team Alpha opens up the engagement and lays down fire using RCL and DMR to engage the enemy
• Team Omega opens up with LMG to provide cover fire for Team Bravo and uses loitering munitions to takeout snipers, FPV operators, LMG/MMG nests
• Team Alpha then opens up and moves towards objective to assault and clear and hold
• Team Omega then proceeds to flank and further pin down enemy hardpoint
• Once enemy hardpoint suppression is maximised, Team Bravo then moves in to box enemy and destroy the objective

View attachment 7837

Section Commander > SIG-716i; probably EOTech and magnifier
2IC > SIG-716i; iron sights coz nothing left after SC got his setup

Alpha Team leader > SIG-716i; just EOTech without magnifier, so that he remembers he's subordinate to SC
Rifleman > SIG-716i; flipped down iron sights...because he's rifleman, he needs nothing more than a rifle
Gunner > Negev NG7; iron sights...no funds left after getting Negev NG7
Assistant Gunner > SIG-716i; iron sights but thankfully flipped up

Bravo Team same as Alpha

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Isn’t OFB 12bore the same thing?it is way faster and smoother aswell

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services) | Government of India

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services), 12 BORE PUMP ACTION GUN(NYLON BUTT)

ddpdoo.gov.in

Ishapore aswell
View attachment 7632

These are pump action, benelli is semi auto

 

[Blood+]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but when MKU came out with that helmet for Sikh troops, SGPC raised objections as apparently it hurts their religious belief etc.

Koi batao jakar unko ki a bullet will hurt a lot more.

 

[Blood+]

Yeah it might be but its single shot with bare minimum round capacity. I was wondering about Semi auto for a higher rate of fire and a higher magazine capacity.. Something on the lines of a Benelli M4 or a Beretta A300.

Or a Saiga-12.

 

[Baseplate]

Isn’t OFB 12bore the same thing?it is way faster and smoother aswell

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services) | Government of India

Directorate of Ordnance (Coordination and Services), 12 BORE PUMP ACTION GUN(NYLON BUTT)

ddpdoo.gov.in

Ishapore aswell
View attachment 7632

There is a private company in punjab that makes semi auto shotguns for Civilians,

Just give them your requirements and funding and ask them to build it up.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T5kNFk46Azg

 

[Ayan Barat]

1. Electronic Warfare; cost efficient and can the whole swarm at once but can be easily countered.
2. Air-Burst Autocannon; second most cost efficient but are huge with guns, ammo, radars and EO.
3. Directed Energy Weapon; theoretically most cost efficient and effective but currently upfront cost is huge given it's yet to fully mature.
4. Anti-UAV APS; similar to existing Active Protection System but modified for anti-UAV role. Decently cost efficient with the ability to engage swarm attack at once but it's still in its infancy.

Other than these four, whatever you'll hear as Anti-UAV solution would be more or less a gimmick or a very elaborate scheme to enjoy VC money. Everything from shotgun to trained eagles to net cannon to net cannon throwing UAV to four INSAS mounted on a tripod...everything.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

1. Electronic Warfare; cost efficient and can the whole swarm at once but can be easily countered.
2. Air-Burst Autocannon; second most cost efficient but are huge with guns, ammo, radars and EO.
3. Directed Energy Weapon; theoretically most cost efficient and effective but currently upfront cost is huge given it's yet to fully mature.
4. Anti-UAV APS; similar to existing Active Protection System but modified for anti-UAV role. Decently cost efficient with the ability to engage swarm attack at once but it's still in its infancy.

Other than these four, whatever you'll hear as Anti-UAV solution would be more or less a gimmick or a very elaborate scheme to enjoy VC money. Everything from shotgun to trained eagles to net cannon to net cannon throwing UAV to four INSAS mounted on a tripod...everything.

Why the hate for shotguns lol

Its the only light man portble anti drone hard kill option, the ones you quoted need super high upfront investment and are crew served (except maybe the simplest of ew systems).