Operation Sindoor and Aftermath

[Nicky]

"I'll go in reverse. As bad as Su57 might be, as long as it can handle so called Chini 5th gen, it would do its job."

No, it can't. Russians are still in the era of dog fights prioritizing making highly maneuverable fighter aircrafts rather than giving preference to BVR engagements with sensor fusion and sophisticated network warfare combining all the resources of air force like other fighter aircrafts and AWACS.

"Chini equipment is in US and western material as well. There's no escaping that."

Western aircrafts might contain raw materials like Titanium and rare earth elements from China but never a finished product. Don't make wild claims.

"Delivery timelines delay is something you have to live with. You are talking as if HAL doesn't delay."

So, what is the point of going for Su-57? If there is a delay on our side at the very least it will be delivered and we will be in control of the product and we would have created a new industry within the country and strategic autonomy.

"What's the realistic AMCA timeline? What happens if the government changes?"

No one can say what is the realistic timeline. But there is no going back to the days of importing massive number of fighter aircrafts regardless of who is in power.

Chini jets have no demonstrated capabilities. It's merely a 5th gen on papaer.

US military is concerned about Chini components.

Lack of Chinese components threatens U.S. military readiness

In an age where technological superiority is paramount, the alarming dependency of the U.S. Army on Chinese components is becoming increasingly apparent.

bulgarianmilitary.com

Delays can occur anywhere. The point is that's not unique to Russia.

AMCA depends on continued support from the government which can change.

I too wish we didn't have to import jets. But we don't have the capability to produce 5th gen in the next decade. So we need a stop gap.

 

[Brood Father]

Why would China give a fuck about gwadar and cpec infrastructure. That shit is a make work project for their contractors nothing more.

China should be told that in the even of nuclear use by pak we will retaliate not only in islamabad but also in Beijing

The war head count should head toward 1000

Their air defence systems are so shit they will have to take it seriously.

They are risk averse to an extreme and will likely completely sit out if this is done

China arming pak is because it wants India to stop building Navy
The way China can be threatened is by choking its supply lines in Malaca
That is why it is very important for India to build its Navy by building next gen destroyers and submarines and also Naval AMCA .

 

[Brood Father]

Chini jets have no demonstrated capabilities. It's merely a 5th gen on papaer.

US military is concerned about Chini components.

Lack of Chinese components threatens U.S. military readiness

In an age where technological superiority is paramount, the alarming dependency of the U.S. Army on Chinese components is becoming increasingly apparent.

bulgarianmilitary.com

Delays can occur anywhere. The point is that's not unique to Russia.

AMCA depends on continued support from the government which can change.

I too wish we didn't have to import jets. But we don't have the capability to produce 5th gen in the next decade. So we need a stop gap.

THERE IS NO STOP GAP SITUATION FOR INDIA

You get SU57 then you risk CATSA , tell me how then you are going to build your own jets

You get F35 you won't be able to integrate it with existing system and also your platform will be controlled by US

The only stop gap option I see is J20 ..,.

Second best is to wait for AMCA and in meanwhile build unmanned drones and work in radars
AMCA will be China perspective not Pakistan.for pak our missiles will be enough

 

[Nibbler]

China arming pak is because it wants India to stop building Navy
The way China can be threatened is by choking its supply lines in Malaca
That is why it is very important for India to build its Navy by building next gen destroyers and submarines and also Naval AMCA .

I agree all those are important

But k4, k5 and a 1000 warheads are more important.

I hope the breeder reactor gets going (is it?) And it starts pumping out fissile material

 

[Nicky]

THERE IS NO STOP GAP SITUATION FOR INDIA

You get SU57 then you risk CATSA , tell me how then you are going to build your own jets

You get F35 you won't be able to integrate it with existing system and also your platform will be controlled by US

The only stop gap option I see is J20 ..,.

Second best is to wait for AMCA and in meanwhile build unmanned drones and work in radars
AMCA will be China perspective not Pakistan.for pak our missiles will be enough

F35 is a non-starter. Why can't we build jets without CATSA? We told US to f-off when we got S400.

If not Su57, get more Rafales and hope they can match J20 where needed.

The thing people are missing is that the opposition can come in power and scuttle AMCA.

I am not sure drones can be a substitute for a jet in an all out war.

 

[Brood Father]

F35 is a non-starter. Why can't we build jets without CATSA? We told US to f-off when we got S400.

If not Su57, get more Rafales and hope they can match J20 where needed.

The thing people are missing is that the opposition can come in power and scuttle AMCA.

I am not sure drones can be a substitute for a jet in an all out war.

Suppose you go for Su57 and Uncle Sam put a CATSA you won't be able to get GE414 engines and also GE404 . Your all important projects will go down the drain
Our goodwill saved us in S400 and but only due to the threat of CATSA we didn't initiate Tejas Mk2 . Funds were delivered to the project only when we had MoU .
Also for SU57 our air force rejected it because of its compromised stealth and even Russia is not able to manufacturer this at industrial scale , there is engine issues as well . So I don't know how people are saying Su57 is a serious contender

Yes I do agree Air force should get more Rafales and then make it the last import

 

[Brood Father]

F35 is a non-starter. Why can't we build jets without CATSA? We told US to f-off when we got S400.

If not Su57, get more Rafales and hope they can match J20 where needed.

The thing people are missing is that the opposition can come in power and scuttle AMCA.

I am not sure drones can be a substitute for a jet in an all out war.

Drone will substitute jets .. Future warfare will be on unmanned drones ..Manned platform will only be used to guide and assist unmanned from safe space ..
Era of dogfight is over my friend .It's all drones from now on

 

[Hari Sud]

Bad Chinese military Hardware in Pakistani hands

Chinese will continue to be war material supplier to Pakistan. There are two reasons for that. First no other country will sell to them cheap untested war material at a deferred payment rate other than China. Second, geopolitically, Pakistan wants to stay connected fully with China to corner India.

Hence knowing that how miserably the Chinese military hardware failed during operation Sindoor they will still buy Chinese military hardware…….. That is good for India.

Now for next 5 to 10 years Pakistan will not attempt another war with India. Smart military men in Pakistan know that untested stealth fighters which China is giving to Pakistan will fail again like their PL-15 and they will loose war again but they will continue a thousand year Islamic war with India, no matter how many times they fail.

 

[Nicky]

Suppose you go for Su57 and Uncle Sam put a CATSA you won't be able to get GE414 engines and also GE404 . Your all important projects will go down the drain
Our goodwill saved us in S400 and but only due to the threat of CATSA we didn't initiate Tejas Mk2 . Funds were delivered to the project only when we had MoU .
Also for SU57 our air force rejected it because of its compromised stealth and even Russia is not able to manufacturer this at industrial scale , there is engine issues as well . So I don't know how people are saying Su57 is a serious contender

Yes I do agree Air force should get more Rafales and then make it the last import

CATSA or not, GE 414 can be choked anytime. You think US is reliable after recent behaviour?

We either way need other partners for engine.

Su57 might be below what our air force wishes but it's better than anything we have or the Chini have.

That's a good enough stop gap till we get the dream capability is AMCA.

What other option is there for the next 10 years? Hope that drones and missiles are good enough for Porkis and Chini?

Drone will substitute jets .. Future warfare will be on unmanned drones ..Manned platform will only be used to guide and assist unmanned from safe space ..
Era of dogfight is over my friend .It's all drones from now on

Yes that's a claim that we can't bet on for the future of our nation.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I'll go in reverse. As bad as Su57 might be, as long as it can handle so called Chini 5th gen, it would do its job.

Chini equipment is in US and western material as well. There's no escaping that.

Delivery timelines delay is something you have to live with. You are talking as if HAL doesn't delay.

What's the realistic AMCA timeline? What happens if the government changes?

My 2 cents

Su57 cant handle J20, not by a long shot. J20:Su57 is the same as Rafale:JF-17 - Same "generation" of aircraft, but one falls far behind the other.

Su57 isnt stealthy to even X band, it has giant return on lower section even in frontal aspect



If you want to import, get F35. Else, get your UCAVs developed fast and stock up on missiles. Either is a undesirable solution, but it will work for a while till issues are sorted.


SU57 solves nothing.

 

[Nicky]

Bad Chinese military Hardware in Pakistani hands

Chinese will continue to be war material supplier to Pakistan. There are two reasons for that. First no other country will sell to them cheap untested war material at a deferred payment rate other than China. Second, geopolitically, Pakistan wants to stay connected fully with China to corner India.

Hence knowing that how miserably the Chinese military hardware failed during operation Sindoor they will still buy Chinese military hardware…….. That is good for India.

Now for next 5 to 10 years Pakistan will not attempt another war with India. Smart military men in Pakistan know that untested stealth fighters which China is giving to Pakistan will fail again like their PL-15 and they will loose war again but they will continue a thousand year Islamic war with India, no matter how many times they fail.

Yes even Porkies understand that. Which is why they are begging US to give them real AD.

I don't think US will give them F35, they might if we go for Su57. But maintaining F35 is a nightmare for even the US.

 

[Brood Father]

CATSA or not, GE 414 can be choked anytime. You think US is reliable after recent behaviour?

We either way need other partners for engine.

Su57 might be below what our air force wishes but it's better than anything we have or the Chini have.

That's a good enough stop gap till we get the dream capability is AMCA.

What other option is there for the next 10 years? Hope that drones and missiles are good enough for Porkis and Chini?

Bhai ..you have only so much money to either do modernization or procurement you cant do both.
If you have a blank cheque then it makes sense to do both of GOI has limited money and it has to modernize is navy airforce and army
Navy becomes more and more crucial because of China .like I said Pak is a distraction . If you really want to counter China you need to build your Navy .
China wants you to buy fifth Gen junks from Russia or Umerica so that it can scuttle your Navy for just enough time so that it can control Indian Ocean region ..
You don't want to make this mistake unless you are suicidal

 

[Nicky]

My 2 cents

Su57 cant handle J20, not by a long shot. J20:Su57 is the same as Rafale:JF-17 - Same "generation" of aircraft, but one falls far behind the other.

Su57 isnt stealthy to even X band, it has giant return on lower section even in frontal aspect

View attachment 38600

If you want to import, get F35. Else, get your UCAVs developed fast and stock up on missiles. Either is a undesirable solution, but it will work for a while till issues are sorted.


SU57 solves nothing.

J20 is mostly untested hype like other Chini systems, we destroyed in the recent operations.

F35 would be suicide inviting restrictions and sanctions. It would be limited in what we can integrate.

Su57 might be a subpar 5th gen, but so is J20. Stealth is not the beall, there's maneuverability and a host of other capabilities. Plus we will be able to integrate our systems as we wish.

It should be the last jets we import.

Else bet on drones and missiles till we get AMCA which we don't know the timeframe for. An unwise option.

 

[Nicky]

Bhai ..you have only so much money to either do modernization or procurement you cant do both.
If you have a blank cheque then it makes sense to do both of GOI has limited money and it has to modernize is navy airforce and army
Navy becomes more and more crucial because of China .like I said Pak is a distraction . If you really want to counter China you need to build your Navy .
China wants you to buy fifth Gen junks from Russia or Umerica so that it can scuttle your Navy for just enough time so that it can control Indian Ocean region ..
You don't want to make this mistake unless you are suicidal

Yes money is a limitation and the government has to balance long term investment with short to medium term.

You can't neglect the air force and bet everything on a a jet that may come 15 years down the line.

Porkies are a distraction but one that we don't seem interested in dealing with. There is no indication we will have dealt with them in the next decade or so. Thus, we need to factor them as well.

I agree that growing navy is critical for Chini but that doesn't mean we can ignore air force.

It's pretty simple, can we deal with anything Porkies or Chini airforce can throw at us for the next 15 years without a 5th gen fighter jet?

If yes, then don't import but if no, what other option do we have apart from Su57?

 

[haldilal]

View: https://x.com/Kunal_Biswas707/status/1931369479750955321

 

[Brood Father]

Yes money is a limitation and the government has to balance long term investment with short to medium term.

You can't neglect the air force and bet everything on a a jet that may come 15 years down the line.

Porkies are a distraction but one that we don't seem interested in dealing with. There is no indication we will have dealt with them in the next decade or so. Thus, we need to factor them as well.

I agree that growing navy is critical for Chini but that doesn't mean we can ignore air force.

It's pretty simple, can we deal with anything Porkies or Chini airforce can throw at us for the next 15 years without a 5th gen fighter jet?

If yes, then don't import but if no, what other option do we have apart from Su57?

I am not sure why you want to waste money in substandard jet which has below par engine output , compromised stealth and it's rate of delivery is not even sufficient for Russian armed forces .
A rupee wasted in Su57 is better sitting in coffers generating interest..
Coming back to Pakistan , if it has J31 then YOU CANNOT stop it from attacking India if you don't have radars .
Su57 will be used for attacking Pakistan but geography of Pakistan is so piss poor tht we can attack Pakistan at place of our choosing by missiles and drones so I don't see any incentive in buying a substandard jet

 

[chnvipgz]

I am not sure why you want to waste money in substandard jet which has below par engine output , compromised stealth and it's rate of delivery is not even sufficient for Russian armed forces .
A rupee wasted in Su57 is better sitting in coffers generating interest..
Coming back to Pakistan , if it has J31 then YOU CANNOT stop it from attacking India if you don't have radars .
Su57 will be used for attacking Pakistan but geography of Pakistan is so piss poor tht we can attack Pakistan at place of our choosing by missiles and drones so I don't see any incentive in buying a substandard jet

Yup we can shoot their jets when they try to go airborne thanks s400 no more sikular roe .
We must focus on building indian navy and modernize army with ai and drones,airforce must be indigenized and all three armed forces must be integrated.

 

[Hari Sud]

Yes even Porkies understand that. Which is why they are begging US to give them real AD.

I don't think US will give them F35, they might if we go for Su57. But maintaining F35 is a nightmare for even the US.

Very, very unlikely that American will ever consider arming Pakistan on the same scale as 1955 or in 1984. It suits Pakistan to stay Jihadi and stay tied with China.

 

[Nibbler]

J20 is mostly untested hype like other Chini systems, we destroyed in the recent operations.

F35 would be suicide inviting restrictions and sanctions. It would be limited in what we can integrate.

Su57 might be a subpar 5th gen, but so is J20. Stealth is not the beall, there's maneuverability and a host of other capabilities. Plus we will be able to integrate our systems as we wish.

It should be the last jets we import.

Else bet on drones and missiles till we get AMCA which we don't know the timeframe for. An unwise option.

F35 may be subject to restrictions in a pak conflict. Probably won't be in a chini conflict

 

[Master of Indus]

Anyways, SU-57 is the best stop gap and the way it's coming out, it might surprise everyone. Let's not even talk about chinese junk like J-20 and J-35s, SU-57s will eat them alive. A short video on its capabilities!



View: https://youtu.be/s_nZ37VC7cM?si=bF0-LaZrfO-tcI-j