TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Who said angled stealth planform shaping kills lift but curved body doesn't??????
Since say 1950 in just 75 years we have NOT reached the dead end & the zenith of naval jet design with Rafale. Every naval jet doesnt have to be like Rafale or a delta-canard.
But still if we search for "stealth rafale" then we get come good conceptual CADs:

https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-rafale-2-stealth-model-2075399

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But the above concept is an inflated stealth Rafale, as big as F-22 or YF-23.

Just like France skipped 5gen with FCAS/SCAF & surprised the world, it can surprise again with stealth naval jet any time. Time will tell soon.

Approximate scaled comparison of the stealth Rafale fan concept Vs current TEDBF design.

 

[randombully]

Approximate scaled comparison of the stealth Rafale fan concept Vs current TEDBF design.

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France has confirmed that fcas is designed with carrier operations in mind, just like rafale was.

Dassault confirms the Future Combat Air System will operate from aircraft carriers - Naval News

In October 2018, during the last edition of Euronaval, Dassault Aviation unveiled a scale model of what could become the Franco-German Future Combat Air System (FCAS) or Système de Combat Aérien Futur (SCAF). This first model displayed a tailless delta-winged aircraft clearly inspired by...

www.navalnews.com

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

France has confirmed that fcas is designed with carrier operations in mind, just like rafale was.

Dassault confirms the Future Combat Air System will operate from aircraft carriers - Naval News

In October 2018, during the last edition of Euronaval, Dassault Aviation unveiled a scale model of what could become the Franco-German Future Combat Air System (FCAS) or Système de Combat Aérien Futur (SCAF). This first model displayed a tailless delta-winged aircraft clearly inspired by...

www.navalnews.com

Yes you shared that earlier. I hope we won't require that if our JV developes 210 KN wet thrust class VCE which would be a lifetime kind of opportunity, now or never.

 

[Spitfire IX]

There is a feature today on Indian Defence Updates suggesting that TEDBF is to be redesigned to become a 5G fighter. Any real chance of that happening?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0rBi67_Vt4

 

[Asmodeus]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1910768126914158713

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Some new poor quality images of TEDBF have emerged.
It looks like modified Rafale.
Even after IN indicating 5gen TEDBF, AFAIK there is no official response from ADA on it.

 

[Gyyaan]

Some new poor quality images of TEDBF have emerged.
It looks like modified Rafale.
Even after IN indicating 5gen TEDBF, AFAIK there is no official response from ADA on it.

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Extra Weapons could be carried by drones imo.
2040ish me 4.5th gen makes no sense unless you are taking the KF-21 route.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Extra Weapons could be carried by drones imo.
2040ish me 4.5th gen makes no sense unless you are taking the KF-21 route.

UCAVs are future but a different matter altogether.

You won't believe that some people on some forums are strictly against 5gen TEDBF & quoting many reasons to justify fleet of 4.5gen for next 40-60 years.
They say that -
- bcoz of supersonic & hypersonic BIG weapons like , Kinzal, etc which cannot be carried internally, a stealth naval jet is pointless. They wan't bomber weapons in a fighter or no 5gen.
- China won't ever send even 1 CBG (Carrier Battle Group), so we won't face J-35, J-50.
- Pakistan Navy doesn't need to be countered by our 5gen TEDBF. So Pakistan will automatically decide our tech progress.
- Apart from these 2 nations ther are no naval threats, so no 5gen TEDBF needed.

They don't wanna understand that enemy SAMs, AAMs also improving.

 

[Ajatshatru]

UCAVs are future but a different matter altogether.

You won't believe that some people on some forums are strictly against 5gen TEDBF & quoting many reasons to justify fleet of 4.5gen for next 40-60 years.
They say that -
- bcoz of supersonic & hypersonic BIG weapons like , Kinzal, etc which cannot be carried internally, a stealth naval jet is pointless. They wan't bomber weapons in a fighter or no 5gen.
- China won't ever send even 1 CBG (Carrier Battle Group), so we won't face J-35, J-50.
- Pakistan Navy doesn't need to be countered by our 5gen TEDBF. So Pakistan will automatically decide our tech progress.
- Apart from these 2 nations ther are no naval threats, so no 5gen TEDBF needed.

They don't wanna understand that enemy SAMs, AAMs also improving.

With the Kaveri engine currently undergoing testing and certification, I am confident that India has already achieved 100% indigenous heavy drone manufacturing capability. As more data becomes available and BrahMos Aerospace works on developing a wet thrust variant of the Kaveri engine for larger drones—beyond the GHATAK UCAV—India will move even closer to developing a fully indigenous turbofan engine for fighter jets.

 

[Tsunami]

UCAVs are future but a different matter altogether.

You won't believe that some people on some forums are strictly against 5gen TEDBF & quoting many reasons to justify fleet of 4.5gen for next 40-60 years.
They say that -
- bcoz of supersonic & hypersonic BIG weapons like , Kinzal, etc which cannot be carried internally, a stealth naval jet is pointless. They wan't bomber weapons in a fighter or no 5gen.
- China won't ever send even 1 CBG (Carrier Battle Group), so we won't face J-35, J-50.
- Pakistan Navy doesn't need to be countered by our 5gen TEDBF. So Pakistan will automatically decide our tech progress.
- Apart from these 2 nations ther are no naval threats, so no 5gen TEDBF needed.

They don't wanna understand that enemy SAMs, AAMs also improving.

It can be debated but what is being said is not wrong.

Stealth or no stealth flying your fighters in enemy territory is not working. You defiantly need to use long range stand off weapons to strike targets. Most of these air to ground weaponry is not suitable for internal weapon bays of stealth fighters.

AMCA or a stealth TEDBF won't be able to fit -NG or Rudram or Scalp like missiles in it's internal weapon bay. Also stealth fighters have much higher down time then 4.5 gen one, harder to keep air worthy and far more expensive to operate.

When US airforce was keeping 75% of it's 4th gen fleet air worthy they were not able to maintain 5th gen at 50%. Number of missions per day are also lower then 4th gen fighters. So 5th gen can never be the same workhorse a 4th or 4.5 gen can be.

And all this for stealth which can be countered by a grid of HVF radars. With the technological advancements happening around this it will be possible to guide missiles with L-Band radars that would be difficult for 5th gen fighters to maintain so called stealth. No 5th gen fighter are now able to to fly over any good air defense zone. It might not be taken down yet but that too is not too far.

I am not saying 5th gen i completely useless and it does give you a lot of operational and psychological advantages but there are some restrictions inherited with stealth. So for now a mix of 4th and 5th gen is the best option.

But since Navy is rn is only going for 1 fighter option it has to be 4.5 gen.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It can be debated but what is being said is not wrong.

Stealth or no stealth flying your fighters in enemy territory is not working. You defiantly need to use long range stand off weapons to strike targets. Most of these air to ground weaponry is not suitable for internal weapon bays of stealth fighters.

AMCA or a stealth TEDBF won't be able to fit -NG or Rudram or Scalp like missiles in it's internal weapon bay. Also stealth fighters have much higher down time then 4.5 gen one, harder to keep air worthy and far more expensive to operate.

When US airforce was keeping 75% of it's 4th gen fleet air worthy they were not able to maintain 5th gen at 50%. Number of missions per day are also lower then 4th gen fighters. So 5th gen can never be the same workhorse a 4th or 4.5 gen can be.

And all this for stealth which can be countered by a grid of HVF radars. With the technological advancements happening around this it will be possible to guide missiles with L-Band radars that would be difficult for 5th gen fighters to maintain so called stealth. No 5th gen fighter are now able to to fly over any good air defense zone. It might not be taken down yet but that too is not too far.

I am not saying 5th gen i completely useless and it does give you a lot of operational and psychological advantages but there are some restrictions inherited with stealth. So for now a mix of 4th and 5th gen is the best option.

But since Navy is rn is only going for 1 fighter option it has to be 4.5 gen.

> Bomber weapons are not suitabe for fighter IWBs. But some people want to negate a future fighter bcoz it cant carry bomber weapons. How can someone even think of fitting -NG also inside AMCA's 4.2m long IWB?
But, I'm exploring idea of IN+IAF AHCA which might be able to carry weapons up to say 5-6m long. Otherwise it can carry type weapon on centerline, launch it from very far & then retain stealth. The following diagram is made by Russian guy with username "paralay" on other forums. This can be taken as a NOTION for now.


> Due to more & complex technologies, 4gen has higher down time & cost than 3rd gen, 3gen more than 2gen, 2gen more than 1gen.

> USA's geography, geopolitics, global agenda, global airbases, global allies, global market, economy, etc very different from India.

> The idea of a good stealth fighter is not to act like horses, bulls, elephants, donkeys, etc but like ninja & sniper. Technically, obviously beast mode cannot be compared to stealth mode, stealth jet can function in beast mode, but non-stealth jet can't be stealthy when required.

> Yes, enemy SAMs & AAMs improving. Hene if 5gen is endangered then 4gen will definitely be shot down like mosquitoes. So your points are self-conflicting here.

> If 4gen MLUed to 4.5gen then 5gen will/shoukd be MLUed to 5.5gen with DIRCM, perhaps DEW-CIWS too. This can be MLUed to 4.5gen as well but stealth creates difference to have opportunity to use it.

> The restrictions of stealth like payload is compensated by strategy & tactics, the whole idea of stealth.

> As IN indicated stealth TEDBF, the current 4.5gen TEDBF can be produced as LSP till stealth TEDBF arrives. Giving geometric treatment is not big deal. It should be stated immediately.

Otherwise, IN will never ever have stealth fighter till eternity.

 

[Tsunami]

> Bomber weapons are not suitabe for fighter IWBs. But some people want to negate a future fighter bcoz it cant carry bomber weapons. How can someone even think of fitting -NG also inside AMCA's 4.2m long IWB?
But, I'm exploring idea of IN+IAF AHCA which might be able to carry weapons up to say 5-6m long. Otherwise it can carry type weapon on centerline, launch it from very far & then retain stealth. The following diagram is made by Russian guy with username "paralay" on other forums. This can be taken as a NOTION for now.
View attachment 37969

> Due to more & complex technologies, 4gen has higher down time & cost than 3rd gen, 3gen more than 2gen, 2gen more than 1gen.

> USA's geography, geopolitics, global agenda, global airbases, global allies, global market, economy, etc very different from India.

> The idea of a good stealth fighter is not to act like horses, bulls, elephants, donkeys, etc but like ninja & sniper. Technically, obviously beast mode cannot be compared to stealth mode, stealth jet can function in beast mode, but non-stealth jet can't be stealthy when required.

> Yes, enemy SAMs & AAMs improving. Hene if 5gen is endangered then 4gen will definitely be shot down like mosquitoes. So your points are self-conflicting here.

> If 4gen MLUed to 4.5gen then 5gen will/shoukd be MLUed to 5.5gen with DIRCM, perhaps DEW-CIWS too. This can be MLUed to 4.5gen as well but stealth creates difference to have opportunity to use it.

> The restrictions of stealth like payload is compensated by strategy & tactics, the whole idea of stealth.

> As IN indicated stealth TEDBF, the current 4.5gen TEDBF can be produced as LSP till stealth TEDBF arrives. Giving geometric treatment is not big deal. It should be stated immediately.

Otherwise, IN will never ever have stealth fighter till eternity.

I don't understand the requirement to use fighters to fire air launched stand off weapons. Future jet powered drones can easily do the job as target is anyway preset and launch happens high subsonic speed. Bombers(Maned) and not required in future as no one is going to use bombers for nuke delivery. Rest next bigger iteration of Ghatak will be able to handle easily.

I know idea of stealth fighters is not to work like horses but forces do need work horse and snipers as well. So that's why I said mix of 4.5 gen and 5th gen.

If long range weaponry can't be used and enemy airspace is accessible then it's better to use 4th gen to hot the target using stand off weaponry. Best would be still drones.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I don't understand the requirement to use fighters to fire air launched stand off weapons. Future jet powered drones can easily do the job as target is anyway preset and launch happens high subsonic speed. Bombers(Maned) and not required in future as no one is going to use bombers for nuke delivery. Rest next bigger iteration of Ghatak will be able to handle easily.

I know idea of stealth fighters is not to work like horses but forces do need work horse and snipers as well. So that's why I said mix of 4.5 gen and 5th gen.

If long range weaponry can't be used and enemy airspace is accessible then it's better to use 4th gen to hot the target using stand off weaponry. Best would be still drones.

AFAIK, even USA has not demonstrated UCAVs formation flying w/o collision like real pilots, very important for flight. So we are even farther away.

Different people imagine UCAV differently. I imagine a fighter UCAV, not a small boomerang shaped dedicated strike UCAV w/o afterburner, which can't defend itself once detected.

I also said that 4.5gen TEDBF can be produced as LSP till stealth TEDBF is ready. But we Indians must realize that we are lagging behind global fighter tech by 30-40 years, which we have to narrow down.

Era of 6gen has started. So it should be mix of 6gen & 5gen in 2040+ era.
We've RAM, RAS.
DRDO working on DEW.
We need proper engine.

Ultimately all kinds of weapons are used w.r.t. size, type, range, guidance, etc.