GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

eastern_bhartiya said:
If we start now and focus on it , then we can have a engine by 2033-35 , but I really don't know if govt even cares about engine infra at this point.
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Complete indigeneous F404 replacement will come up in 5-6 years while 110-120kn class engine would take 10-12 years. As per samir v kamat this will happen if gobermint is willing to fund infrastructure this is were there will shatters.
The cost for development Infrastructure including testbeds, manufacturing plants machining toolings & mfg processes, testings Facilities certification would be exorbitant i suppose it would still cost less than a jv with france which was initially thought to be around 5 billion we even see 6-7 billions in media. It could exceed even that.

However what is then left is the adaptive cycle tech as no such thing would come with k10 it is unclear as we are looking for to long. But there's high possibility of jv happens as drdo has already expressed there desires for adaptive cycle given the jv partners are working on 6th gen jets it seems likely but full tot seems unlikely along with hot section.

Anyways, government instead wants to avoid this hassle which doesn't guarantee 100% as per them and wants to get into a jv which would guarantee the invested money wouldn't result in failures like with kaveri but they forget the Infrastructure needed to test them. Are they willing to fund that Infra in jv is a questionable. Or they just want to rely on france for that matters avoiding that cost while getting a engine to be put in production in india for AMCA,mk2. Unclear tho.

In short gov will only care if the existing kaveri proves itself then a newer kaveri will be initiated for error 404 replaced which has to again prove itself along with all new technologies developed for it. Then gov might be confident enough to put money in or maybe gov will fund the oldy goldy k10 idea once even the baseline current kaveri is certified & proved. While f404 replacement & k10 110-120kn class engine will be run in parallel. My words take it with bag of salt.

They will invest if they find it more feasible than a jv high stakes on kaveri right now. A jv is never gonna be feasible once we are invested they will just repeat same story as scorpene class subs.
 
Satish Sharma Ji said:
Complete indigeneous F404 replacement will come up in 5-6 years while 110-120kn class engine would take 10-12 years. As per samir v kamat this will happen if gobermint is willing to fund infrastructure this is were there will shatters.
The cost for development Infrastructure including testbeds, manufacturing plants machining toolings & mfg processes, testings Facilities certification would be exorbitant i suppose it would still cost less than a jv with france which was initially thought to be around 5 billion we even see 6-7 billions in media. It could exceed even that.

However what is then left is the adaptive cycle tech as no such thing would come with k10 it is unclear as we are looking for to long. But there's high possibility of jv happens as drdo has already expressed there desires for adaptive cycle given the jv partners are working on 6th gen jets it seems likely but full tot seems unlikely along with hot section.

Anyways, government instead wants to avoid this hassle which doesn't guarantee 100% as per them and wants to get into a jv which would guarantee the invested money wouldn't result in failures like with kaveri but they forget the Infrastructure needed to test them. Are they willing to fund that Infra in jv is a questionable. Or they just want to rely on france for that matters avoiding that cost while getting a engine to be put in production in india for AMCA,mk2. Unclear tho.

In short gov will only care if the existing kaveri proves itself then a newer kaveri will be initiated for error 404 replaced which has to again prove itself along with all new technologies developed for it. Then gov might be confident enough to put money in or maybe gov will fund the oldy goldy k10 idea once even the baseline current kaveri is certified & proved. While f404 replacement & k10 110-120kn class engine will be run in parallel. My words take it with bag of salt.

They will invest if they find it more feasible than a jv high stakes on kaveri right now. A jv is never gonna be feasible once we are invested they will just repeat same story as scorpene class subs.
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TOT in engine department is a complete jumla created by the French MIC with the help of our harami babus, there is no way we're getting critical engine tech from any Nato country without surrendering our sovereignty to them . We're fed this chooran each and every time to get spat in face.
 
eastern_bhartiya said:
TOT in engine department is a complete jumla created by the French MIC with the help of our harami babus, there is no way we're getting critical engine tech from any Nato country without surrendering our sovereignty to them . We're fed this chooran each and every time to get spat in face.
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TOT never works. Though RD engine manufactured by HAL , but see still cant make new engine.
 
Godrej Enterprises ready for manufacturing 5th gen jet engine: Maneck Behramkamdin

In 2023, Godrej Enteprises became the first Indian private entity to win the order for manufacturing eight modules of the DRDO’s Kaveri derivative engine. Within a two-year period, the company completed two modules of the 50 kiloNewtons (kN) thrust engine, with the remaining six modules under development. The Kaveri derivative engine is a dry thrust version of the Kaveri engine project, which was originally intended to power the Tejas fighter aircraft.
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https://manufacturing.economictimes...-gen-jet-engine-maneck-behramkamdin/119890850
 
Satish Sharma Ji said:
Complete indigeneous F404 replacement will come up in 5-6 years while 110-120kn class engine would take 10-12 years. As per samir v kamat this will happen if gobermint is willing to fund infrastructure this is were there will shatters.
The cost for development Infrastructure including testbeds, manufacturing plants machining toolings & mfg processes, testings Facilities certification would be exorbitant i suppose it would still cost less than a jv with france which was initially thought to be around 5 billion we even see 6-7 billions in media. It could exceed even that.

However what is then left is the adaptive cycle tech as no such thing would come with k10 it is unclear as we are looking for to long. But there's high possibility of jv happens as drdo has already expressed there desires for adaptive cycle given the jv partners are working on 6th gen jets it seems likely but full tot seems unlikely along with hot section.

Anyways, government instead wants to avoid this hassle which doesn't guarantee 100% as per them and wants to get into a jv which would guarantee the invested money wouldn't result in failures like with kaveri but they forget the Infrastructure needed to test them. Are they willing to fund that Infra in jv is a questionable. Or they just want to rely on france for that matters avoiding that cost while getting a engine to be put in production in india for AMCA,mk2. Unclear tho.

In short gov will only care if the existing kaveri proves itself then a newer kaveri will be initiated for error 404 replaced which has to again prove itself along with all new technologies developed for it. Then gov might be confident enough to put money in or maybe gov will fund the oldy goldy k10 idea once even the baseline current kaveri is certified & proved. While f404 replacement & k10 110-120kn class engine will be run in parallel. My words take it with bag of salt.

They will invest if they find it more feasible than a jv high stakes on kaveri right now. A jv is never gonna be feasible once we are invested they will just repeat same story as scorpene class subs.
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The testing infrastructure cost runs into billions but why its now being approved is there is no feasible case for same.
Test infrastructure will only be used few times in span of of years or even less, and India will not be able to even lease these facilities to anyone.

Only if India masters engine core a test infrastructure should be built otherwise its a huge waste of resources
 
Spacemarine said:
The testing infrastructure cost runs into billions but why its now being approved is there is no feasible case for same.
Test infrastructure will only be used few times in span of of years or even less, and India will not be able to even lease these facilities to anyone.

Only if India masters engine core a test infrastructure should be built otherwise its a huge waste of resources
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Without testing infra you cannot do iterative development. You're today's top notch engine one day will become outdated it will require a replacement iterative development is the reason why usa is head from rest of us and who told you once engine is ready there would be no use testing infra ?
A engine is constantly improved for that they need it. For eg f110. So many iterations variants have came up over a period it's being perfected more every next iteration.
People with thinking like you are in the mod is the reason why we are so behind in jet engine arena.
Testing infra will not be used only for few span.
There are some test facilities in usa which are being used since 1950s.
It is not huge waste of resources. You're attitude reflect babus. This critical arena can never be waste of resources. And if that would have been case as you said why would it take us so long everytime to test engine in russia. Even back in 2000s and even this year gtre faced delay.

And by testing facility I don't only means testbeds for testing new engines.
This complex aerospace systems required thorough testing before they are put together. As there are many things to go wrong.
 
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Sometime i think though HAL have cash & profits, still they didnt invest in aeroengines. Very strange. aerospace companies always first go with aeroengines.
 
TopWatcher said:
Sometime i think though HAL have cash & profits, still they didnt invest in aeroengines. Very strange. aerospace companies always first go with aeroengines.
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HAL is still a Sarkari company. They can't decide where they will be spending crores without informal blessings from Babus first

Babus reluctance should be seen from the stand point of risk taking. Nobody wants to sign-off on funding Jet-Engine prototypes if it is not guaranteed to fly and meet all of IAF's specs parsed from fancy brouchers. It is too high profile a project where any major failure visible from public domain is a no-no (according to their thinking)

Babus work diametrically opposite of build-quickly, fail-fast and progress in leaps by learning from it. That too on Jet-Engine, which is why the yearning for Videshi collaboration. Pay in dollars or Euros for a 3rd party to bear the technical risks and manage PR fallout if any

They will not let Kaveri to be mounted on a LCA Test Bed unless a trusted DRDO director signs a blood bond promising it will land back safely and not embarrass them in any way
 
Satish Sharma Ji said:
This developments are boosting confidence of pvt sector.

View: https://twitter.com/idrwalerts/status/1908004479120630246
They aren't sitting idle either

View: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/status/1788137451325902864

View: https://twitter.com/ShiroBarks/status/1907419006572617794
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If GoI is serious , they'd form a JV between HAL & these Pvt Sector Players for mfg of the KED once the definitive version : 55 - 60 KN / 90 KN has been certified .

This is important for as of now the only production agency capable of fabricating such TFs by far is HAL. Pvt Sector Players will take some time & a lot of investment to get upto these standards which I'm sure they won't be inclined to given the heavy investments to be made .
 
Azaad said:
If GoI is serious , they'd form a JV between HAL & these Pvt Sector Players for mfg of the KED once the definitive version : 55 - 60 KN / 90 KN has been certified .

This is important for as of now the only production agency capable of fabricating such TFs by far is HAL. Pvt Sector Players will take some time & a lot of investment to get upto these standards which I'm sure they won't be inclined to given the heavy investments to be made .
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I am not sure but HAL only mfg 2nd and 3rd gen TF, that too when materials come from Russ. Pvt players like Azaad Engg, BFL, GOdrej etc have been mfg some components including TF for Japan and RR. I think Kalyani and now Godrej have said before that if Govt comes out of L1, L2 mindset and forms a consorcium with GTRE+4,5 pvt players ( add to that MiDhani+ Brahmos+BEL) they can do 110KN engine...
 
Asmodeus said:
I am not sure but HAL only mfg 2nd and 3rd gen TF, that too when materials come from Russ. Pvt players like Azaad Engg, BFL, GOdrej etc have been mfg some components including TF for Japan and RR. I think Godrej now and Kalyani have said before that if Govt comes out of L1, L2 mindset and forms a consorcium with GTRE+4,5 pvt players ( add to that MiDhani+ Brahmos+BEL) they can do 110KN engine...
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The issue once again is these Pvt Sector Players aren't interested in development. They're more interested in mfg.

Investing in both is something only governments can do. A pvt player will look to the governments to subsidise their investments massively or look for guaranteed RoI like firm commitments to mfg once development is over.

So this isn't an open & shut case as it appears. Otherwise what prevents Godrej or L&T from becoming another PTC & Azad Engg ? They can start out by becoming Tier 3 or 2 vendors to international TF houses like RR , SAFRAN etc.
 
Azaad said:
If GoI is serious , they'd form a JV between HAL & these Pvt Sector Players for mfg of the KED once the definitive version : 55 - 60 KN / 90 KN has been certified .

This is important for as of now the only production agency capable of fabricating such TFs by far is HAL. Pvt Sector Players will take some time & a lot of investment to get upto these standards which I'm sure they won't be inclined to given the heavy investments to be made .
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the thing is, govt still treats engine development like some road construction project where they have to deliver something that resembles the product on paper, they don't want to take risk, in the process of a engine development there would be many failure, our babu class for whatever reason doesn't want to face with failures . there could also be political reasons like, if current govt fears that engine development can be used a political tool by opposition.
 
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