Air India AI 171 Crash in Ahemdabad (5 Viewers)

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Was he trying somehow to land on the road..could have minimised loss of life. Or perhaps the clearing open land to the left perhaps. Om shanti.

IMO i don't think so. Neither the road was in-line, nor it & open areas visible due to trees. A drone view from apogee point flying towards the crash area can reveal things better.

The plane fell in a less dense spot over roof of the mess then in compound of the hostel, all areas around have highly dense residence.

From crash vids & pics it appears - If pilot could see the ground, may be he pulled up nose to avoid head-on collision with mess, causing the tail to hit mess & break, remaining fuselage exploded, skid on rooftop, may be bounced little, rolled right & left wing hit the building, fuselage brushed the buildings & hit compound ground.

If the failure happened sooner or slightly later then there would be no clean area with much higher ground casualties.
If failure happened say after a minute then pilots would be in similar situation as captain Sully, with Sabarmati river nearby.

Pilots do train for crashes due to numerous reasons, in different terrain.
An extremely proactive pilot might even study Google Maps around airport before next flight, IDK. That's exceptional navigation skill. But failure can happen at any unfavorable moment.

If T/o to crash is 32 seconds then engines must have failed around 8-10 seconds, 1/4th to 1/3rd of distance, 22-24 seconds remaining.
1 or both pilot(s) would try to look quickly at MFDs - error messages, RPM, electrical, hydraullics, etc, perhaps try to restart engines.
1 pilot may to scout the area; from security CCTV footage the jet does roll right little then left then centers, but a jet cannot maneuver much at such low altitude & short time of 8-16 seconds with emergency power from batteries + RAT also.
Excess pulling could have caused stall.




APOGEE or highest altitude was 625 ft. from MSL (Mean Sea Level) & 400 ft. AGL (Above Ground Level), 16 seconds remaining.
400 ft = 40 floors building roughly.
If we check Google Earth,positioning at approximate apogee point, at 400 ft., & look towards crash site, then the pilots would have seen something like this (16 seconds remaining) :



It was take-off phase, then loss of thust, so AoA (Angle of Attack) was high, hence downwards visibility of ground is very limited, but 787 windshield has good size & FoV (Field of View).
We can watch many landing videos on Youtube.
Now if we imagine trees, they will obscure the open land also, it is trigonometry.
If the pilot scouts an open land at apogee & steer with emergency power, then there are better chances.

The following are pics of -
- regular eye view in cockpit
- zoomed view out of clean flat terrain



Look at the height of tail of plane on ground through the left HUD. Trees can be even more tall than that.
I put the RED lines & we can see how much huge land trees can obsure.

The slender wings of airliners are designed for subsonic cruise, not perfect glider.

If we combine the above pic & Googe Earth view, we get this:



So unless someone shares a drone view from apogee point at 400 ft., i think from cockpit PoV, the city dwelling around airport didn't give much chance to pilots.
The airport is in NE quadrant of city.
If planes take off towards NE direction then also dwellings are there.

 

[Captscooby]

Alos focus bias.
Media houses tend to dig up evey corner to find similar news to continue the trend. It's the same when a wife murders her husband similar dozen news pops up all of a sudden such that it will make your feel it's a regular happening.

yes but aircraft returning to base and not flying back on the same day are not some dig up stuff by media . A simple go around by pilots will screw their happiness with some report going upto Aviation Authority , here two 787-8 flights took to sky and returned back to same base this is not some minor incident ..

Yes pilots especially AI ones right now will be at their peak of cautious they won't go ahead with things which they would have in past which they would have not found dangerous to flying .

 

[kailv8]

Here is an armchair AV Enthusiast's plausible list of scenarios after digging & analysing through the trove of information on the internet and various other sources. Do bear with the long post as I would dwell into leading scenarios being floated along with what I feel might have contributed to the unfortunate crash. My sympathies again with the families of those who lost their lives in the tragic incident.

The theory of a “A catastrophic electrical system failure leading to engine spool down, loss of thrust, lift & controls“ could be the clincher.

Disclaimer: Observations taken after interviewing professional pilots, certified Aircraft Maintenance Engineers & fellow AV Enthusiasts.

Let us first examine existing scenarios and rule them out one by one:

1. Pilot Error - No flaps/slats or landing gear retracted. - Not possible.


• Captain Steve claimed on YouTube and in the media that the crash was caused by pilot error, but there is no indicative or definitive proof of it. I would rate it is a poor lazy analysis by someone who is qualified enough.
• Even the two videos of the crash lack sufficient clarity to draw a firm conclusion. To avoid improper takeoff configurations, modern aircraft such as the Dreamliner 787-9 are equipped with a variety of safety features and alerts such as Takeoff Configuration Warning System (TOCWS) & EICAS (Engine Indicating and Crew Alerting System) that examine the config & checklist followed are well within the safety threshold of the aircraft even before taxing to the runway commences.
• From the crash images while examining the wing, we can observe that the slats are extended forward and the flaps are at setting 5, which is appropriate for takeoff.
• Additionally, it is evident from the terrace video that the landing gear is in the retracted position. This indicates that after a positive rate of climb was verified, the First Officer raised the landing gear per the Captain's instructions but was stuck open due to power loss immediately after the under carriage lever was pulled.
  
  
  View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZwzACp-q9U
• The landing gear and flap levers are located separately in the cockpit, it is extremely unlikely that a skilled crew member would use the incorrect one as suggested.

2. Fuel Contamination - Ruling this out.



• It's highly unlikely that fuel contamination—like adulterated fuel or fuel loaded with moisture—could have been the culprit, either from earlier refueling at DEL or AMD.
• Refueling trucks are equipped with fuel quality sensors right in their nozzles, and they also have embedded filters that meet international standards.
• The 787-9 itself has between 7 and 9 different fuel filters scattered throughout the system. If there were any issues, the plane would have screamed visual & aural warnings even before it pushed back from the gate or during the takeoff checklist. Plus, this aircraft has a Fuel Tank Inerting System (FTIS), which actively filters out moisture and vents any fume buildup, especially on a hot summer day.
• Moreover no other Aircraft that took off on 12th June either from AMD or DEL suffered from Fuel Contamination.
• Given all these redundancies, this scenario just doesn't add up.

3. Bird Strike - Completely Ruled out.



• Although AMD has perennial problem of Birds loitering around the Airport, No bird carcass was reported to be found nor any flocks of birds seen in the video footage.


• There is no sign of FO or bird intake into the engines which has distinctive signs in the way of visible sparks, flames or smoke emanating from the engines. So ruling out this theory as well.

Why i feel Catastrophic electrical system failure is the most plausible scenario.

Potential Outcomes Experienced by VT-ANB:

1. Thermal Runway (Fire) in Primary Batteries located in AFT battery section leading to electric power being cut off to critical systems. This has occurred before in JAL, ANA 787 in 2013, could be a repeat issue although batteries were changed by Boeing for AI 787’s in 2015.
2. Over heating of Primary Flight Control Computers (PFCC), Integrated Flight Control Module (IFCM) causing short circuit & subsequent loss of electric power to Instruments, Controls & Hydraulic due to prolonged exposure to excessive ambient temperature in DEL & AMD. Remember the cooling is done through cabin air & avionics cooling system.
3. Not enough time for backup generator (VSFG) or Ram Air turbine (RAT) to come online. RAT was deployed and is quite evident in the terrace video of the crash. Distinctive propeller noise of the RAT deploying can be heard at the start of the video. Link to Original terrace video with audio:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYREezc1voc

4. Fuel control valves loosing electrical power causing uncontrolled dial back to idle or a complete Double Engine flameout.​

​

5. Redundancies failing due to no software able to control domino effect of multiple simultaneous subsystem failures.​

​

Anomalies Observed:

1. VT-ANB has been feeding inconsistent ADSB data in its previous flights while flying ONLY out of AMD, the maintenance log books should point out to these prior anomalies.
2. A passenger from DEL-AMD leg on the day of crash reportedly complained on X about loss of Air con & non responsive entertainment screens consistent with electrical issues.
3. Landing gears stuck in Retract position.
4. Inability in Avoiding crashing into buildings during emergency which is practiced at length in the simulators by pilots pointing to a complete loss of controls.
5. No further radio contact after declaring MAYDAY.

Eagerly awaiting DFDR and CVR findings along with ATC audios by DGCA. Hopefully the learnings would have a significant impact in making flying safer.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Subramanian Swamy said AI171 crash should be investigated as conspiracy.

In interview to media he calls Narendra Modi as "chuha"(mouse) bcoz he doesn't open his mouth in front of USA, EU to take action against terror supporting nations like Pakistan & its allies.

He liked J.R.D. Tata but doesn't have confidnce over present day TATA group for super sophisticated tech like aircrafts. He said giving Air India to TATA group was mistake. BTW, his wife Roxna is Parsi/Zoroastrian, like Tata family.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnaZ1yEKlyo

 

[why so serious?]

Glitch On Air India San Francisco-Mumbai Flight, Fliers Deplaned During Halt​

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nd...ght-fliers-deplaned-during-halt-8686860/amp/1

 

[Vilander]

Glitch On Air India San Francisco-Mumbai Flight, Fliers Deplaned During Halt​

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nd...ght-fliers-deplaned-during-halt-8686860/amp/1

Too many for it to be coincidence.

 

[Adibot]

Too many for it to be coincidence.

Exactly
This looks like a major sabotage that had been done during manufacturing itself
Boeing has a lot to answer
Also it's majorly happening to us

 

[Vilander]

Exactly
This looks like a major sabotage that had been done during manufacturing itself
Boeing has a lot to answer
Also it's majorly happening to us

Or air India has some questionable maintenance contracts outside the country. None of the news rooms are pursuing this angle.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

View: https://youtu.be/nRJQj6pb9co?si=gjkH4lkPkIfSCFRl

 

[Nicky]

This is a joke. Imagine the state of people set to travel.


View: https://x.com/ndtv/status/1934954775772291324?t=OZVd_eeAUc9I9pTZ8J9cHA&s=19

 

[Corvus Splendens]

 

[Brood Father]

This is a joke. Imagine the state of people set to travel.


View: https://x.com/ndtv/status/1934954775772291324?t=OZVd_eeAUc9I9pTZ8J9cHA&s=19

Better late than dead ..stop using Air India is the only solution , Until these idiots (government and Air India ) sort them out

 

[Captscooby]

View attachment 40110

This tweet sounds as if AI has 66 787 aircraft's , they should have mentioned 66 flight routes cancelled which are to be operated by 787 ..

 

[Durin's Folk]

This tweet sounds as if AI has 66 787 aircraft's , they should have mentioned 66 flight routes cancelled which are to be operated by 787 ..

Dont expect anything from these tg handles. All they care about is giving breaking news style headlines with half ass based research. They are known for jumping to conclusions based on unverified news and exaggerating it.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Possibility of maintenance issues are there, but it spans numerous things.

But if considering FUEL CONTAMINATION then
Our expectation is that when initial contamination builds up,
at an international busy airport where continous refuelling take place,
it should cause engine sputter/stuter/shudder,
that too in multiple jets,
on multiple days & time,
forcing for maintenance,
not a sudden crash only for 1 jet,
that too late at 1:38 pm local time,
It is analogous to us sneezing, coughing & not straight away dropping dead on floor unless we inhaled nerve gas, cyanide, etc.

Common enthusiasts like us consider contamination as water, paste like dirt, some solid particles but not to the limit of 100% blocking valves, filters, etc, so rapidly in short time, causing complete loss of thrust & crash a vehicle.

In a default scenario, there are S.O.P.s & ISO standards to follow, multiple quality checks, quick checks & elaborated checks.
+ we would expect many filters & quality checks at every step used while transfering fuel from beginning till end -
- refinery to transport tanker
- transport tanker to airport storage
- airport storage to fuelling tanker
- fuelling tanker to aircraft

Captain Steve in his videos & statements said the fuelling trucks have contamination detection mechanism.

BUT, i realized that depending upon contaminant, catastrophic faults can be fast in 1st flight or span multiple flights.
So if those fuel giants are so careless then it would be a scam of unprecedented scale.
Citizens might stop taking fuel from them, their shares in stock market will collapse, the company or subsidiary might go bankrupt.

Each GenX-1B engine has -
- Fule Metering Unit
- LP & HP pumps
- LP & HP filters





So contamination should cause pressure & flow irregularities recorded by FMU (Fuel Metering Unit), forcing for maintenance.

IDK the Black Box contains data of how many flights.
The data can be recorded in redundant bit level for max data.
If it has last few flights data then irregulaties will be recorded there.

While discussing on other forum, I came across 2 examples of contamination on different jet models & different bludner mistakes of adding 38x fuel-additive biocide & bad construction practices of fuel storage area. it is worth to have a lookat them:







Cathay Pacific Flight 780, 13 April 2010,
Airbus A-330,
Surabaya, Indonesia, to Hong Kong International Airport
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathay_Pacific_Flight_780)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPeZr9uSfTg

RAT was manually, proactively deployed.
In flight they had chance to use APU also.
Left engine N1 ran at 74% & right engine N1 at 17%.

The root cause was bad construction practice during rain leading to salt water getting into fuel pipe, reacting with filter & releasing SAP particles.




===============================================================




Titan Airways, Airbus A321,
24 Feb 2020, Cyprus - London, no errors !!!!!!.
25 Feb 2020, London - Gatwick, On ground for left engine -

HP Fuel valve warning, ​

engine took 2 attempts to start.​

25 Feb 2020, Gatwick - Balice (Poland), no errors !!!!!!
26 Febl 2020, Balice (Poland) - Gatwick, On ground for left engine -

2 times HP Fuel valve warning, ​

engine stall warning once,​

left engine took 3 attempts to start, ​

momentary errors in flight ​

& thumping sound after landing.​

26 Feb 2020, Gatwick - London, On ground for left engine -

ignitor fail alert, ​

engine fail alert 2 times, ​

engine took 4 attempts to start, ​

incident on take-off,​

Fortunately the engines didn't fail completely & the jet could turn around & land,

thumping sound after landing.​

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Qclymu2EA

This one happened due to multiple mistakes, that too on ground before 1st & 2nd flight & ultimately in 5th flight during takeoff -
- Language barrier in Cyprus, not understanding what is PPM (Parts Per Million).
- Wrong calculation & 38x quantity of Kathon biocide over-use & concentration in HMU, not due to algae.
- As per re-enacted animation it seems that biocide was added improperly from top access port, not mixed well with proper tools, leaving sludge on bottom & tank outlet, went into HMU & choked it. Hence right engine started but left engine took 4 attempts to start on ground.
- Before next flight the ground engineer referred to troubleshooting by fault code rather than engine model, hence of wrong engine.
- & no boroscope inspection was done.






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> These incidents happened either mid-flight, means issues took time to manifest.
Or in 2nd example, many engine start faults happened on ground bcoz it is a unique series of blunder mistakes, but then ultimately in 5th flight during T/o.

> In these 2 cases both the engines did not cease but ran at low RPMs due choking of piston of FMU (Fuel Metering Unit) & valve of HMU (Hydro Mechanical Unit).
While in case of AI-171 the pilot's Mayday call reported something like "no thrust, no power, losing lift, going down", speculating 0% RPM.
So, for AI-171 we've to look at -

- maintenance records, ​

- maintenance areas ​

- historical warning messages also in Black Box apart from latest.​