Indo-China Border & LAC

ezsasa said:

1999 - when kargil was happening, one or two companies present for entire ladakh sector.
2000 - post kargil, decision was made to strengthen china facing sectors.
2005 - Nuclear deal between India and U.S
2006 - 70+ projects were surveyed, identified, and sanctioned.
2008 - IAF "unofficially" re-opens on DBO air strip
2008 - chinese internal literature starts mentioning India as an adversary.
2012 - Xi becomes president
2013 - DBO incident , chini troops came in just before their premiere's visit
2014 - Modi becomes Prime Minister
2014 - along to Xi's visit to New Delhi came their troops at border with infra heavy equipment in demchok
2015 - projects sanctioned in 2006 were going at a snail's pace due to bureaucracy. B.R.O gets re- organised to get it fully under MoD. as infra improved, number of confrontations between Indian and chini forces increased.
2015 - Depsang incident
2017 - Pangong Tso incident
2017 - Doklam incident
2020 - Sikkim Incident
2020 - Galwan incident

to get exact number of confrontations/flag drills per year, will have to search for them in parliament Q&A. not sure if these numbers are published on a regular basis, these will be in thousands spread across years.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29373304
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacif...ffs-between-chinese-and-indian-armies/1879115
https://www.orfonline.org/research/chinas-two-front-conundrum

Impasse at the LAC: An Examination of the 2013, 2014, and 2015 Standoffs

This article examines the significance of the 2013, 2014, and 2015 border standoffs between India and China. It presents a detailed account of the border crises and how the two countries tried to manage them.

carnegieendowment.org

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great list ,

few more additions .

2001 - india/china standoff in tawang , india destroys chinese bridge at chumi gyaste waterfalls
2002 - china builds road upto f4 , pangong tso
2012 - india completes DS-DBO dirt road stretch close to burste depsang
2012 - china responds to indian DS-DBO road construction , builds road right along indian LAC
2014 - china builds road across international border into india , during govt change

20xx - asaphila AP , we blocked chinese road construction on Chinese land , across indian international border

Ultraman said:

great list ,

few more additions .

2001 - india/china standoff in tawang , india destroys chinese bridge
2002 - china builds road upto f4 , pangong tso
2012 - india completes DS-DBO dirt road stretch close to burste depsang
2012 - china responds to indian DS-DBO road construction , builds road right along indian LAC
2014 - china builds road across international border into india , during govt change

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copy my list and add yours in sequence by year, and paste it again. this way everything will be in one place in a sequence for the benefit of other members.

1999 - when kargil was happening, one or two companies present for entire ladakh sector.
2000 - post kargil, decision was made to strengthen china facing sectors.
2001 - india/china standoff in tawang , india destroys chinese bridge at chumi gyaste waterfalls
2002 - President K.R. Narayanan's state visit to China
2002 - china builds road upto f4 , pangong tso
2005 - Nuclear deal between India and U.S
2006 - 70+ projects were surveyed, identified, and sanctioned.
2008 - IAF "unofficially" re-opens on DBO air strip
2008 - chinese internal literature starts mentioning India as an adversary.
2012 - Xi becomes president
2012 - india completes DS-DBO dirt road stretch close to burste depsang
2012 - china responds to indian DS-DBO road construction , builds road right along indian LAC
2013 - DBO incident , chini troops came in just before their premiere's visit
2014 - Modi becomes Prime Minister
2014 - china builds road across international border into india , during govt change
2014 - along to Xi's visit to New Delhi came their troops at border with infra heavy equipment in demchok
2015 - projects sanctioned in 2006 were going at a snail's pace due to bureaucracy. B.R.O gets re- organised to get it fully under MoD. as infra improved, number of confrontations between Indian and chini forces increased.
2015 - Depsang incident
2017 - Pangong Tso incident
2017 - Doklam incident
2020 - Sikkim Incident
2020 - Galwan incident
2021 - DS-DBO road blacktopped / completed

20xx - asaphila AP , India blocked Chinese road construction on Chinese land , across indian international border

ezsasa said:

1999 - when kargil was happening, one or two companies present for entire ladakh sector.
2000 - post kargil, decision was made to strengthen china facing sectors.
2005 - Nuclear deal between India and U.S
2006 - 70+ projects were surveyed, identified, and sanctioned.
2008 - IAF "unofficially" re-opens on DBO air strip
2008 - chinese internal literature starts mentioning India as an adversary.
2012 - Xi becomes president
2013 - DBO incident , chini troops came in just before their premiere's visit
2014 - Modi becomes Prime Minister
2014 - along to Xi's visit to New Delhi came their troops at border with infra heavy equipment in demchok
2015 - projects sanctioned in 2006 were going at a snail's pace due to bureaucracy. B.R.O gets re- organised to get it fully under MoD. as infra improved, number of confrontations between Indian and chini forces increased.
2015 - Depsang incident
2017 - Pangong Tso incident
2017 - Doklam incident
2020 - Sikkim Incident
2020 - Galwan incident

to get exact number of confrontations/flag drills per year, will have to search for them in parliament Q&A. not sure if these numbers are published on a regular basis, these will be in thousands spread across years.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29373304
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacif...ffs-between-chinese-and-indian-armies/1879115
https://www.orfonline.org/research/chinas-two-front-conundrum

Impasse at the LAC: An Examination of the 2013, 2014, and 2015 Standoffs

This article examines the significance of the 2013, 2014, and 2015 border standoffs between India and China. It presents a detailed account of the border crises and how the two countries tried to manage them.

carnegieendowment.org

Click to expand...

Thanks Much. Depsang Plain incursion happend during or after Kargil.

India has an army camp in that area and the DBO road passes through the area. The DBP road construction started in 2000 and since then the Chinese side is desperate to grab land from India. During many stand-offs during UPA rule, the Chinese Army came forward in this area and both India - China decided to go back. But the Chinese Army never went back. They kept interrupting Indian patrols and as per a few news reports Indian Army has not been able to patrol the whole of Depsang Plains (which India considers it's side of LAC) in the last 10–15 years. The same thing has been happening now. Whenever Indian forces go to patrol this area, the Chinese Army stops them from going forward. Somehow they have very strong intelligence and also his is a flat plain and they come to stop the Indian side but they have not built any camp in the area claimed by India.


What’s also significant is that in the Depsang Plains, where the Line of Patrolling lies considerably beyond its perception of the LAC, India has not been able to reach the LAC in the last 15 years. The area that India has not accessed in years is around 972 sq km.

“We used to go up to those patrolling points, he (the PLA) is stopping us from going to the patrolling points,” the officer said. “We have not really lost anything in this round of encounters.”

Anants said:

Thanks Much. Depsang Plain incursion happend during or after Kargil.

India has an army camp in that area and the DBO road passes through the area. The DBP road construction started in 2000 and since then the Chinese side is desperate to grab land from India. During many stand-offs during UPA rule, the Chinese Army came forward in this area and both India - China decided to go back. But the Chinese Army never went back. They kept interrupting Indian patrols and as per a few news reports Indian Army has not been able to patrol the whole of Depsang Plains (which India considers it's side of LAC) in the last 10–15 years. The same thing has been happening now. Whenever Indian forces go to patrol this area, the Chinese Army stops them from going forward. Somehow they have very strong intelligence and also his is a flat plain and they come to stop the Indian side but they have not built any camp in the area claimed by India.

No ground lost in Depsang but India hasn’t accessed large parts for 15 years

Top officer says Indian patrolling points in area blocked since April; Army steps up presence, on alert to foil any ingress attempt elsewhere along LAC.

indianexpress.com

What’s also significant is that in the Depsang Plains, where the Line of Patrolling lies considerably beyond its perception of the LAC, India has not been able to reach the LAC in the last 15 years. The area that India has not accessed in years is around 972 sq km.

“We used to go up to those patrolling points, he (the PLA) is stopping us from going to the patrolling points,” the officer said. “We have not really lost anything in this round of encounters.”

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after kargil , around 2012 , maybe earlier in 2009 .

this is picture taken in 2009 , chinese meeting up with our patrol in depsang , probably same place as stand off area now .

to be honest entire place is a waste land . main concern is they can cut off our vital ds-dbo road .

but we can build alternate route . meh just let the fuckers keep it.

"New Delhi and Beijing are close to an agreement for the mutual withdrawal of frontline troops from Demchok "

More chai biscuit sessions ahead

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/modi-and-xi-likely-to-meet-on-sidelines-of-either-brics-or-g20-summit-in-oct-nov-3172801

Ultraman said:

after kargil , around 2012 , maybe earlier in 2009 .

this is picture taken in 2009 , chinese meeting up with our patrol in depsang , probably same place as stand off area now .

to be honest entire place is a waste land . main concern is they can cut off our vital ds-dbo road .

but we can build alternate route . meh just let the fuckers keep it.

View attachment 8251

View attachment 8252

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Nope India needs Depsang and much much more. That should be the aim and claim.

Anants said:

Nope India needs Depsang and much much more. That should be the aim and claim.

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Only problem is that there is almost nothing in the way of defensible natural features in that area. Therefore, the connectivity will have to be improved manyfold than what's available right now.

Blood+ said:

Only problem is that there is almost nothing in the way of defensible natural features in that area. Therefore, the connectivity will have to be improved manyfold than what's available right now.

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agree. But what I mean claim is something we should never give and our planning should ponder on how to restore our historical and cultural area. We should at least develop such capability and attitude with it that China should also feel the same vulnerability in holding up same area. Atleast get large no man area established and have the power to main that status. Otherwise we shall keep on loosing feature by feature. We still lost land after 1987 power show. China is consistent with its aim. While we are happy defending one wave and start resting on laurels and the its only some time when China refines its strategy comes with effective with second wave and chips away some piece of land - only to rinse and repeat.

hurrians said:

"New Delhi and Beijing are close to an agreement for the mutual withdrawal of frontline troops from Demchok "

More chai biscuit sessions ahead

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/modi-and-xi-likely-to-meet-on-sidelines-of-either-brics-or-g20-summit-in-oct-nov-3172801

Click to expand...

Demchok incursion is pathetic wrt Chinese
It's of no use and we can overpower them it's obvious that they have to go back

hurrians said:

"New Delhi and Beijing are close to an agreement for the mutual withdrawal of frontline troops from Demchok "

More chai biscuit sessions ahead

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/modi-and-xi-likely-to-meet-on-sidelines-of-either-brics-or-g20-summit-in-oct-nov-3172801

Click to expand...

New Delhi and Beijing are close to an agreement for the mutual withdrawal of frontline troops from Demchok, one of the two remaining face-off points along the LAC.

they basically crossed the lac and are doing dharna , mutual withdrawal would mean they go back to old position , we take 1 step back . in simple terms chinese will push us back . pretty much what happened at pp15 , pp17a,

maybe that wont be the case, will be interesting to see how this one turns out .

hurrians said:

"Even a tactical thaw wouldn’t be easy, as one or both sides would need to budge from their existing, conflicting positions. India’s stance has been “border before broader,” i.e., broader ties could not return to normal if the border remained “abnormal.” China’s stance has been “broader before border”—as reflected in the new Chinese ambassador’s insistence that “the boundary question is not the entirety of the relationship.”"

Is there going to be an India-China deal?

Could there be an Indian effort to see whether a more stable dynamic with China is possible? Modi could try—as he did in 2014, 2018 and 2019.

www.brookings.edu

"There is also some political risk. The Modi government has dismissed opposition accusations that it has accepted Chinese gains and a new normal at the border. But domestic critics will continue to scrutinize any claims of a “return to peace and tranquility” (the government’s stated metric) and whether concessions are made in the search for stability. There might also be some backlash from labor and/or sections of Indian business from any easing of economic restrictions on China, given concerns about Chinese overcapacity among other issues."

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.only agreement reached is to have more chai biscuit session to narrow down differences
. without any meaningful results or favorable changes in facts on ground including wrt legacy issues , it's natural for opposition to attack the uturn

. Corona happened military movements were restricted, chinaman smelled an opportunity and grabbed land (hypothetical scenario)

View: https://youtu.be/UbD8-bLKp-k?si=ypevrnhB6pZ6uP-Y

Very interesting episode on the implications of our N doctrine vis a vis China .

Weibo yesterday leaked some high definition pics on captured some IA soldiers and officers, some might from pangkong tso 2017 conflict and some might from Galwan 2020.

I tried to blur them as much as possible.

Conflict, P5 in pangkong Tso

Now rest of Asia is waking up to Chinese threat.

The Japanese have budgeted $59 billion for modernization. India plans $17 billion in military upgrade and $12 billion in infrastructure upgrade in Himalayas, the Taiwan has asked for $32 billion in new military purchases, philipines is planning a massive increase and so is Vietnam etc. etc.

On top of these, today US is upgrading all its defunct military assets in Indo-Pacific with newer and a lot more modern hardware.

Truthfully, Chinese who had threatened everybody in last 5 years, now find surrounded by much more advanced militaries all around them. That disadvantage began with the arrival of Xi on the top job in China, who began a massive military buildup to reclaim Neighbours land and their prosperity. Now they find themselves surrounded by powerful militaries.

I would say that Chinese are at a stand still now.

Article probably a bit hyperbolic but makes some interesting claims;

However, India has done little to build bargaining leverage against China, which is why the buffer zones at Galwan Valley, Pangong Lake and Gogra-Hot Springs were established largely on Indian territories.

India should have responded to the 2020 Chinese encroachments by sending troops into strategic Chinese-held areas in Tibet. This would have raised the costs for Chinese border violations, thereby boosting deterrence.

Ukraine’s recent incursion into Russian territory sought to seize territory that could serve as a bargaining chip in future negotiations. A counter territorial grab has always made strategic and military sense. It is inexplicable why India, in response to the Chinese encroachments, has chosen to stay locked in a military standoff without seeking to gain counter-leverage by seizing some Chinese-held territory in Tibet.

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To make matters worse, India even vacated the strategic Kailash Range as part of the 2021 Pangong Lake deal, which, like the buffer zones elsewhere, has worked to China’s military advantage.

In the Pangong region, the entire buffer zone was set up on territory that India had patrolled until China made its stealth encroachments in April 2020. The buffer, in fact, also includes a swath of Indian area that China had never disputed or claimed. This is the area from Finger 4 to the Indian base (between Fingers 2 and 3). All this has encouraged China to construct a division-level headquarters at the edge of the lake, along with two bridges across the lake and underground warfare-related facilities, placing it in an ascendant position in the Pangong region.

More broadly, the standoff persists despite more than four years of military and diplomatic negotiations because China has used those talks to take India round and round the mulberry bush, while it has been quietly consolidating its encroachments and building new warfare-related infrastructure along the entire Indo-Tibetan frontier.

Its frenzied construction has fundamentally changed the Himalayan military landscape. And the three buffer zones it foisted on India have formalised a changed status quo.

Today, there are still no answers to two key questions. First, why was India taken unawares by China’s stealth encroachments of April 2020, whose costs have increased with the passage of time? And second, why did India subsequently, as part of bilateral accords to set up some buffer zones, withdraw from its historically claimed areas in the Galwan, Pangong and Gogra-Hot Springs regions?


If a ‘peace’ deal were to be concluded in whatever shape, a few things will not change, though. With China having forcibly changed the territorial status quo in eastern Ladakh, a return to status quo ante is most unlikely. In January, then Indian Army Chief General Manoj Pande said the standoff would continue until China pulled back from its Ladakh encroachments, calling restoration of the previous frontier line “our first aim to achieve”. That aim is clearly unrealistic.

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As the 2017 Doklam disengagement deal showed, China withdraws only temporarily. Within weeks of the deal, it sent in large numbers of troops and effectively captured the Doklam plateau.

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@mist_consecutive
@Ultraman

crazywithmath said:

Tread Carefully - Open The Magazine

China and India make up more than one-third of the global population, and enduring enmity between these giants serves neither their national interests nor the cause of Asian stability and security. The India-China military standoff along the traditional Indo-Tibetan frontier may not be grabbing...

openthemagazine.com

Article probably a bit hyperbolic but makes some interesting claims;



@mist_consecutive
@Ultraman

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part about bulk of bufferzone in gogra , pp15 , galwan being on indian side is true . rest is just mental gymnastics.

doklam we blocked pla from jampheri ridge on southern tip of doklam , if chinese had reached that ridge they would have view of the chicken neck + its only place where they will be able see across himalayas into india gangetic plains . i dont think there was any deal about them vacating whole doklam it was only about the ridge .

View: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/1832986976850440473?t=_QvV8E7Qx7L71mM0_wo_Ew&s=19

Any video/source?