1965 Indo Pak War

[Blademaster]

Kashmir, yes. Lahore - there simply was not enough forces available for that task at that time. You must keep this in mind that back then, the Pakistanis enjoyed a significant numerical and qualitative edge over the Indian Army in terms of armor and artillery.
Plus, what would even be the point in taking something that you know for certain you'd need to give up afterwards anyway??

Better bargaining position. They would be willing to trade Kashmir to get Lahore back. And I do think that India had the capability of keeping Lahore. For starters, Pakistan was very low on supplies and logistics. They would not be able to sustain their combat operations once the IA severed that logistic artery from Karachi to Lahore and Islamabad.

 

[Hari Sud]

Here is a good description of 1965 air war. I did not see the air action but will read the newspaper which on September 3rd, 1965; flashed the gunsight photos of Keelor shooting down the Pakistani Sabre jet. I was at Ambala during the war when Pakistani planes came to bomb the air installations. The black out was so complete that they could not see the airfield. They dropped the bomb randomly. One of them struck a hospital.

You can read more details of air actions in the following article:

49 Years Of 1965 War - How India's 'Sabre Slaying' Siblings Brought The PAF To Its Knees During 'Short War'

It was just three years after the bloody but brief war with China, and India was getting ready for another battle, this time with Pakistan. The war brought out the best example of sibling rivalry: Two brothers flying for the Indian Air Force (IAF) claimed one American-made F-86 Sabre fighter jet...

www.eurasiantimes.com

 

[ezsasa]

Thread by Yew's Finest , this one ought be here

Ambush In Punjab: Decline & Fall of the Pakistani Army.
Most Indians know of Asal Uttar as the moment in history when Pak Armour rolled into a well laid Indian trap.
Few truly grasp the enormity of the event; of the coup the Indians pulled off in 'The Punjab'


View: https://x.com/FinestYew/status/1442471012176588800

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Thread by @FinestYew: Ambush In Punjab: Decline & Fall of the Pakistani Army. Most Indians know of Asal Uttar as the moment in history when Pak Armour rolled into a well laid Indian trap. Few truly grasp...…

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[Varoon4]

Question- Pakistan received its Sabre Jets and Patton Tanks in 1954. Theoretically, had they fully operationalised and inducted all of them in 1954 itself, would they have a major advantage in a war with India in that year. Because in 1954, India( as far as i know) did not have its Gnats or Mysteres. It only possessed Vampires, Spitfires and Tempests, with a few Canberra bombers. Plus Stuart and Sherman tanks.

 

[Hari Sud]

Question- Pakistan received its Sabre Jets and Patton Tanks in 1954. Theoretically, had they fully operationalised and inducted all of them in 1954 itself, would they have a major advantage in a war with India in that year. Because in 1954, India( as far as i know) did not have its Gnats or Mysteres. It only possessed Vampires, Spitfires and Tempests, with a few Canberra bombers. Plus Stuart and Sherman tanks.

In 1965 war, India had Hunters, Gnat and Mysteres. The Gnat with its high maneuverability became a Sabre killer.

 

[Varoon4]

In 1965 war, India had Hunters, Gnat and Mysteres. The Gnat with its high maneuverability became a Sabre killer.

Yes, but what if the 2 countries went to war in 1954. Would Pakistan have a major advantage, assuming their Sabres and Pattons were operationalised. What could / would India have mustered up then.

 

[Hari Sud]

Yes, but what if the 2 countries went to war in 1954. Would Pakistan have a major advantage, assuming their Sabres and Pattons were operationalised. What could / would India have mustered up then.

There was no possibility of war in 1954. Pakistan began receiving Patton Tanks and Sabre jets. The delivery was set over two years. Pilot trains and tank trading add time hence war in 1954is a figment of imagination.

 

[Varoon4]

Last boring question on this issue- had Pakistan not received Sabre Jets, Patton Tanks et al, would India also not have gone for the Gnats, Hunters and Mysteres? Particularly knowing Nehru's general aversion to the military. Would India have remained content with its Tempests and Vampires. Did Pakistan with its modern acquisitions force Nehru's hand?

 

[Blood+]

Question- Pakistan received its Sabre Jets and Patton Tanks in 1954. Theoretically, had they fully operationalised and inducted all of them in 1954 itself, would they have a major advantage in a war with India in that year. Because in 1954, India( as far as i know) did not have its Gnats or Mysteres. It only possessed Vampires, Spitfires and Tempests, with a few Canberra bombers. Plus Stuart and Sherman tanks.

When the war broke out in 65, they had enjoyed a 3 to 1 numerical superiority in terms of modern battle tanks, their infantry were equipped with M1 Garand and G3 semi auto rifles while a lot of the Indian units were still equipped with Lee-Enfields.

Their infantry companies had twice as many medium machineguns and RCL guns as compared to their Indian counterparts. And it actually gets even worse as a lot of the Indian units were still relying on Bren LMGs for fire support even at the platoon level where as the Pakistanis had fully transitioned to M60 belt-fed GPMGs by then.

They had more modern, longer ranged, higher lethality artillery pieces in greater numbers than the Indian Army. Plus, their artillery units were equipped with counter battery radars.

A third of their Sabre fleet was equipped to carry AIM-9L Sidewinder missiles while India had none. Not to mention, their radar coverage was so great that they had practically every Indian forward air force base under constant surveillance and would have the Indian fighters on their screen the moment they got airborne.
Meanwhile, IAF was still heavily relying on dudes with binoculars and radios for spotting!!

The list just goes on but I think we've already painted the picture in sufficient detail. So, as you may see, the Pakistanis had us hilariously outgunned on pretty much every count even in 65!! So, it doesn't take a Scipio Africanus or a Hannibal to make an educated guess as to what would have transpired had the date could have been advanced to 1954 instead.

 

[Varoon4]

It demonstrates US perfidy at the highest level. It was done to pressure India to make a deal on Kashmir and/ or to join the US alliance, though the latter probably only after conceding most of Kashmir to Pakistan.

And it shows why India must as far as humanly possible, never explain or apologise its purchases of anything from Russia, Iran or Madagascar. The US placed India in mortal danger by those gifts to Pakistan. Nothing India does endangers the US. There can be no imagined moral equivalences here.

 

[Blood+]

It demonstrates US perfidy at the highest level. It was done to pressure India to make a deal on Kashmir and/ or to join the US alliance, though the latter probably only after conceding most of Kashmir to Pakistan.

And it shows why India must as far as humanly possible, never explain or apologise its purchases of anything from Russia, Iran or Madagascar. The US placed India in mortal danger by those gifts to Pakistan. Nothing India does endangers the US. There can be no imagined moral equivalences here.

Well, for one, the US didn't even believe that India would last more than a couple of decades before imploding and disintegrating into multiple states, so they didn't really care much or gave it much thought at that time. To them, they were fighting communism and if a less than nobody like India got hurt in the process, who'd give a shit?? It was just another simple collateral damage, a broken egg as they say.