AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?

[Bhartiya Sainik]

The size, shape, weight, structure of AHCA would depend on type & number of weapons it would carry.

LEARNING LESSONS FROM 5GEN JETS F-22, F-35, Su-57
New gen jets would require new gen weapons with modified shape & folding fins, perhaps a different attck profile, like F-22 & F-35 will get MAKO, AGM-88E AARGM-ER, Kh-58UShKE, etc.
For example it is not possible or feasible for Su-57 to carry like big missile even if its tandem IWBs are joined.


We see that IWBs of both F-22 & Su-57 have some disadvantage.
Su-57 carries only 4 AAMs currently, may be 6 in future.
F-22 cannot carry weapon bigger than JDAM currently. MLU might add something.


Su-57 can carry cruise missle, Kh-58UShKE internally.


A bigger collage shows some current weapons fit, some don't.


A new jet can combine both capability by having multiple IWBs. the centerline IWB will carry customized CrM, AShM, ARM, etc.
And 2 parallel IWBs can carry 2 AAMs each, total 4.
If we imagine a modified diagram of Su-57 & F-22 then it would look like following:
NOTE - This is just preliminary & notional, otherwise the engines & internal components will obviously have to be adjusted.


The following is 1 of the many examples already created by CAD artist Rodrigo Avella in his vision of F/A-XX :
The IWB bottom edge would be wider than F-22.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

A preliminary look into engine requirement of AHCA concept:
The JV can be a great opportunity only if we develop 2 engines - 1 regular turbofan for medium jets & 1 VCE for next gen heavy class jet bcoz EU is also developing it.
Among IWB jets, F-22 has highest capacity of 8 AAMs of around 1.1 tons & total STOW or stealthy take-off weight (not MTOW) of around 29 tons.
Su-57 & J-20 stealthy STOW are identical around 29-30 tons.
In my concept if i add more internal AAMs or remove 2 BVR-AAMs & add 2 custom design AShM, ARM like in class of following weapons -
- AGM-158 JASSM (2x1 ton) or LRASM (2x1.2 tons),
- or 4 NSM/JSM (4x416 Kg)
- or 4 AGM-154 JSOW (4x500 Kg)
- or 4 AGM-88G AARGM-ER (4x360 Kg)
- or customized Rudram (2/4)
then the STOW adds 2 more tons & reaches 31-32 tons.

F-22's wet T/STOW = 2x(156-165 KN) /9.8 /29 tons = 1.1 to 1.16
Su-57's wet T/STOW = 2x(142.2 KN) /9.8 /29.27 tons = 1
J-20's wet T/STOW with claimed thrust of WS-15 = 2x(171-191 KN) /9.8 /30.21 tons = 1.15 to 1.3

So we see that different makers/countries have different opinion on sufficient TWR.
Let's consider minimum wet T/STOW = 1.15.
To maintain that TWR, thrust/engine required= (31-32 tons x 1.15 x 9.8)/2 = 175 - 180 KN wet, what JV should also target.
Meanwhile the R&D & prototyping can continue using existing engines like AL-41 or AL-31.

 

[Tsunami]

Next gen manned fighter is something we might never see in numbers with any Airforce except USA maybe. There is Russia and China still doesn't have a fully operational 5th gen fighter yet and AMCA is on paper only rest everything is just not gonna materialize. SO only US is capable for now to go for a Sixth gen fighter and rest everyone will be considering drones by 2040.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Next gen manned fighter is something we might never see in numbers with any Airforce except USA maybe. There is Russia and China still doesn't have a fully operational 5th gen fighter yet and AMCA is on paper only rest everything is just not gonna materialize. SO only US is capable for now to go for a Sixth gen fighter and rest everyone will be considering drones by 2040.

> In today's & future era, a supreme manned fighter will never ever be seen in high numbers bcoz of UCAV tech catching up.
> I understand that we have lots of political, financial, technical issues like engines, etc but still I personally think that this can be done with collective agreement, initiative, funding, facilities. We're on Page#2 so this is just the beginning of exploring this concept.
> Every gen/era has/had multiple jets. 1 jet doesn't suffice. USA is lucky that having just 260+/- F-22s is ok as the world has not equalized with them & they have massive fleet of 4gen F-15/16/18 & good business with F-35 JSF. Also, whoever wants to attack USA, i mean air-force Vs air-force (including naval jets) must 1st cross Atlantic & Pacific oceans. Also, USA is capitalist country but we are socialist mixed economy.
> Our ISRO has done well, Mangalyaan in budget less than Hollywood movie; PSLV, GSLV, etc. DRDO has done few exceptional things like ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) system with PAD (Prithvi Air Defence), Ashwin Ballistic Missile Interceptor, AD-1,2, etc, then KALI electron accelerator with DEW application possibility, etc.
> So we got the brains, it'll take time to level up, depends on GoI/MoD. Americans & Russians are neither aliens nor helped by aliens at Area-51 They are just humans like us, but very management oriented, they get things done either by self orothers.
> IMO, AMCA won't suffice due to limited internal payload & engine thrust. But it can evolve into UCAV wingman for AHCA.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Something that isn't talked about enough. The AMCA is already outgunned as it is. We need a bigger jet with more internal space (at least 6 BVRAAMs + 2 CCMs). Something else I always disliked was the IRST sticking out like a sore thumb. The Mk1 AMCA design can no longer be justified in 2030+ scenarios. Reverse engineer and improve the AL-31 with metallurgical breakthroughs made by the Kaveri program. Squeeze out at least 160kn per engine and stick a pair on a bigger AHCA. And letting it fly without a comprehensive EOTS assembly is ludicrous. China has been flashing their EOTS from the J-20 for 10 years now. The AMCA is simply not a competitive design anymore.

Hence i created this thread
> Lately i showed that AMCA can carry 6 staggered short-fin BVR-AAMs & perhaps 8 staggered folding-fin BVRAAMs.
> IDK if CCM could/should have folding fins. The AMCA design doesn't seem to address firing CCM from IWB. It doesn't have SWB.
> But even all that may not be enough for a stealth jet bcoz now both offensive & defensive weapons have to be designed & carried.
> Missiles will improve & may/will become multi-spectral to increase Pk (Probabiity of Kill), but so does countermeasures & tactics. Pilot's life is priceless & the jets, manned or unmanned, will become costlier due to more technologies used. So both sides/aspects improve.
> IMO, a future stealth jet will need LAYERED APPROACH like IADS to address 3 ranges:
- BVR, with Ramjet AAMs. Ramjet has helped to increase range & speed w/o increasing size.
- WVR, if BVR AAMs get depleted, whether they hit or miss their targets.
- VSR, if BVR & WVR get depleted &/or enemy missile (SAM/AAM) get close. So either DEW (Directed Energy Weapon) or cetain # of self defence missiles like MSDM/CUDA/SACM which are like hard-kill APS (Active Protection System).

> All this becomes huge challenge for a single engine stealth jet, like Su-75 for example, which could carry 3 staggered BVR-AAMs + 2 CCMs, that's all. No signs of VSR-AAMs or DEW yet.
> If CCM cannot have folding fins then AMCA currently can carry 4 staggered folding-fin BVR-AAMs + 2 CCMs internally, that's all.
So obviously AHCA is needed.

> Now we should decide the internal load for AHCA, how many :
- Ramjet LR-BVR-AAMs
- SR-CCMs
- VSR-MSDMs or DEW turrets.

> After this will come engine options available, time needed for new engines & # of engines required, to maintain certain dry/wet TWR (Thrust to Weight Ratio), altitude, speed, range, endurance.

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

Let's see what our 6 th gen AHCA might look like 🕉


Q:Why do we need AHCA ?
A:To counter 6 th gen of chynese and murican 6 th gen

Qo our AHCA needs to be Multi-role ?
A:Mostly no......It might be just dedicated jet for Air to Air role

True 5 th gen jets aka F22 , Yf23 were only made to address aerial threats and have no capability to carry Air launched ballistic missile & cruise missiles.....Anti ship , large scale SEAD & DEAD missions were handed to dedicated bombers like B2 , B1B...so we might see similar trend in 6 th gen of murica....NGAD is only for air to air roles and B21 is for ground attack roles....

aka NGAD will be highly optimised-designed do only Air to Air roles....

To carry big anti ship missiles In IWB you have to sacrifice good internal volume of jets which has negative effect on fuel carrying capacity & Range....eg Su 57 , F35

FA-xx will be multi role 6 th gen while NGAD will be dedicated air to air role....

Even Our AMCA is dedicated air to air 5 th gen jet with very limited ground attack capability with sub 500 kg bombs similar philosophy of F22 & Yf23....

In murica case ground attack , antiship, SEAD role were given to Dedicated bombers like B2, B21 & B1b....

In our case DRDO GHATAK will take care of anti ship , SEAD role with RUDRAM 2 missile


Rudram 2 missile specifications

Length : ~ 580 Cm
Diameter : 42.5 Cm (circular body)
Range : 350 Km
Weight : ~ 800 Kg





Ghatak will be able to carry 2 x Rudram 2 in toto....

So strike package with 1 AMCA & 2 Ghataks
Will have

1. 4 x Rudram 2 🕉 Air launched BM
2. 6 x Astra Mk 3


Design of 6 th gen jet

Murica are working on Unmanned close combat aircraft bcoz NGAD can't perform in dogfights bcoz of poor maneuverability.....So NGAD would only carry BVR and Close combat aircraft will carry only Close combat missile like python 5 , NG CCM & aim 9x

maneuverability is inversely propotional to stealth.....

as NGAD , J50 won't have any vertical stabilizer & horizontal stabilizers so their overall stealth will be very good and maneuverability will be poor as compared to 5 th gen like F22 , F23 , AMCA

This is what NGAD might look like

Aka with controll surfaces in one plane


Air intakes on ventral surfaces
2D TVC nozzle

NGAD , Tempest are planned to have 2 x 200 Kn ACE to crater needs of Advanced radars , sensors and DEW capability

So our AHCA might have 2 x 180 Kn ACE which might be designed by expertise gained from DRDO JV 120Kn engine

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Good effort, really appreciate it
But in my vision i wan't to define A for "Advanced" in a different way, like a more independent jet. So as per this thread's title, my approach is to have a common fuselage for IN & IAF to save cost, so obviously it needs to be multi-role which isn't a big deal if custom weapons are built.
This is just the beginning & as everybody can see that i'm considering parts of multiple examples - F-22, F-35, Su-57, Su-33, etc. I'm also considering some modular, swappable parts for future MLUs.
For now, i'll present my PoV w.r.t. your points below:

Q:Why do we need AHCA ?
A:To counter 6 th gen of chynese and murican 6 th gen

Murica? Why afraid of using exact names?

Qo our AHCA needs to be Multi-role ?
A:Mostly no......It might be just dedicated jet for Air to Air role

True 5 th gen jets aka F22 , Yf23 were only made to address aerial threats and have no capability to carry Air launched ballistic missile & cruise missiles.....Anti ship , large scale SEAD & DEAD missions were handed to dedicated bombers like B2 , B1B...so we might see similar trend in 6 th gen of murica....NGAD is only for air to air roles and B21 is for ground attack roles....

aka NGAD will be highly optimised-designed do only Air to Air roles....

To carry big anti ship missiles In IWB you have to sacrifice good internal volume of jets which has negative effect on fuel carrying capacity & Range....eg Su 57 , F35

FA-xx will be multi role 6 th gen while NGAD will be dedicated air to air role....

Even Our AMCA is dedicated air to air 5 th gen jet with very limited ground attack capability with sub 500 kg bombs similar philosophy of F22 & Yf23....

In murica case ground attack , antiship, SEAD role were given to Dedicated bombers like B2, B21 & B1b....

In our case DRDO GHATAK will take care of anti ship , SEAD role with RUDRAM 2 missile


Rudram 2 missile specifications

Length : ~ 580 Cm
Diameter : 42.5 Cm (circular body)
Range : 350 Km
Weight : ~ 800 Kg

View attachment 21946

View attachment 21945

Ghatak will be able to carry 2 x Rudram 2 in toto....

So strike package with 1 AMCA & 2 Ghataks
Will have

1. 4 x Rudram 2 🕉 Air launched BM
2. 6 x Astra Mk 3

So that's the thing at least i would want to learn NOT to have dedicated jets & have dependency. USA can do that bcoz of its isolated geography, capitalist economy, geopolitics, global agenda/market/allies/bases. Oher countries need to check their aspects.
What can we observe technically :-
- F-22 can drop GPS guided JDAM & SDB bombs but not LGB, ARM, AShM, CrM from its IWB.
- It doesn't have IRST & EOTS.
- It doesn't have F-35 like HMDS.
- F-35 can fire BVR-AAM & all types of custom AGMs - ARM, AShM, CrM, so these don't have to be BIG like their previous versions. I guess it can fire AIM-9X in LOAL mode also.
- These custom AGMs have sufficient explosive to damage Destroyers, Frigates, ground assets & kill SAMs.
- Being smaller than F-22 still F-35's RCS is 10x than F-22 due to many obvious reasons - export jet, DSI, IFR probe, ladder, more bumpy surfaces, canopy arc(although stealth film applied but still), etc.
- Its Supercruise is inadequate & it lacks TVC, will mostly loose gunfight.
- 11 Bn US$ MLU for F-22 - stealthy pods with IRST, perhaps EOTS function, more EW capabilities, computing components upgrade, perhaps HMDS, new IWB weapons like MAKO, etc.



- MLU for F-35 - computing components upgrade, EO & RF sensors upgrade, ECU (Engine Core Upgrade) for more thrust, cooling & electricity for more EW, may be for DEW also, new IWB weapons, etc.




- Su-57 is super agile, has Levcons, DIRCM, smaller all-moving rudders, 3D TVC with latest nozzle for RF & IR stealth, latest HMS, cockpit upgrade.
- Even after low visual CS, its RCS suffers due to many reasons - intake ducts have RF blocker (F-22 & F-35 too) but not serpentine, IFR probe, round IRST (although has rotating cover with RAM), canopy arc (although stealth films applied but still), etc.
- It needs external LD pod (EOTS).
- Diagrams advertise all types of weapons for IWB but it has not displayed its open IWB yet.



So all these 5gen gaps can be filled & tweaked. Then only we can say that a NG jet is being built. At least USA with its upcoming more powerful engines, custom weapons, advanced sensor fusion, HMDS, virtual cockpit, etc can easily go for multi-role NGAD with retractable EOTS, DIRCM/DEW.

Design of 6 th gen jet

Murica are working on Unmanned close combat aircraft bcoz NGAD can't perform in dogfights bcoz of poor maneuverability.....So NGAD would only carry BVR and Close combat aircraft will carry only Close combat missile like python 5 , NG CCM & aim 9x

I already explained you step by step that if enemy is trained, smart, tactical with good sensors then BVR-AAMs can miss due to tactics, jamming, decoys, etc. So the PCA cannot remain overconfident, hence either it can use speed to stay away or have 2-4 LOAL IIR CCMs.
What if enemy also implements DEW? So If IIR-CCMs also miss somehow due to flares, DIRCM, DEW then either it is gunfight or DEW fight.
Self defence MSDM/CUDA/SACM/Peregrine kind of VSR-AAMs can also be possible.

The agile 4.5gen & 5gen jets will still have opportunity to find & engage UCAVs. So some of these CCA UCAVs who want to be called "Wingman" which always stays together, they need to have afterburner engines to dogfight & same supercruising profile like PCA, otherwise they will be left behind or compelled to go for AAR more often or RTB.

IMO apart fromUCAVs they will have 2 types of manned NGAD - 1 highly capable with export ban like F-22 & other medium exportable jet like F-35.
Neither a nation can depend only on 1 jet in 1 gen, nor a capitalist nation would leave the global market profit fully to others.

maneuverability is inversely propotional to stealth.....
as NGAD , J50 won't have any vertical stabilizer & horizontal stabilizers so their overall stealth will be very good and maneuverability will be poor as compared to 5 th gen like F22 , F23 , AMCA

Even after big rudders, F-22's RCS is lowest 0.00015 sqm.
Also, TVC doesn't reduce stealth if properly designed. F-22's nozzle is geometric, has transpiration IR-cooling & ceramic-RF stealth rear-turbine blocker.
So a tail-less jet can use split-aelerons & 3D TVC for sufficient agility + LOAL IIR-CCMs + self-defence MSDMs + DEW.

This is what NGAD might look like

Aka with controll surfaces in one plane
View attachment 21952
View attachment 21953
Air intakes on ventral surfaces
2D TVC nozzle

There are so many artist models that 1 of them will surely fly.
All these notional CADs are public imaginations fuelled by advertisements of private companies. The military has no obligation to reveal anything before their plan. So the NGAD PCA & CCA can turn out to be anything. It is propagated that USA after flying NGAD prototype has gone back to drawing board after J-36 revealed. So they can change their advertisements & statements anytime.

NGAD , Tempest are planned to have 2 x 200 Kn ACE to crater needs of Advanced radars , sensors and DEW capability

So our AHCA might have 2 x 180 Kn ACE which might be designed by expertise gained from DRDO JV 120Kn engine

Why not aim higher like them? Through JV, why not try a bigger Kaveri?
Otherwise we'll also end up having 3 engines like J-36 or even 4