AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[brat4]

whatever it is, dont let go of the pressure and momentum we got to keep building MIC within India. do not take shortcuts, the pressure should be to beat pakistan with indigenous weapons so we can stand up to china in the long run.

 

[brat4]

also, i think we should play to our strengths asymmetrically. we are good at missiles, drones, radars.. use them, make weapons that use them in tandem..
build ghatak with whatever kaveri variant we can get.

 

[pipebomb]

Seems like India will buy Su 57E while AMCA gets ready by 2035. US is pissed that we are not even considering the F 35A for use by the IAF.


View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1929717632380371195


View: https://x.com/sanjeev__kapoor/status/1929208429320495556

D@l@ls out in full force

 

[pipebomb]

That was a significant jump actually.

I would lean on the LESS side as there'll be no immediate need for a more powerful engine than the 110kn one

 

[randombully]

I would lean on the LESS side as there'll be no immediate need for a more powerful engine than the 110kn one

Next gen more powerful engine, should also be able to provide "more electrical " power, which is very vital for future jets, they will consume very high kva.
If you want amca to supercruise at mach 1.4-1.5 at 50k+ altitude with full iwb load, 110kn won't do, dry thrust per engine should atleast be 80kn or more.
And generally wet thrust of an engine is 1.5 to 1.7 times it's dry thrust so 120kn-136kn

 

[silentassassin265]

To all F35 and Su57 stans , I need to understand what is your understanding about future wars (with Pakistan only ) will look like ?
Do you think that Pakistan will use J35 and to counter that we will use Su57/F35 and the one who will put a first lock will score the kill .

All this 5th Gen buying is putting a hole in our already deficit funds . We need to build our own 5th Gen and in meanwhile focus on BETTER RADARS WHICH CAN DETECT 5TH GEN .
The moment you will get breakthrough there all 5th Gen tech will go for a toss ..

How exactly are we going to build 5th gen jet without engine?
F414 engine deal is stalled as us is not allowing any tech transfer, m88-4 engine doesn't exist.
We can directly purchase f414 directly from us but it's unlikely that they will sell us just the engine without making any big purchase.

If we buy su57 then out indigenous programs are finished.
If us is indeed giving f35 to us it's a really good deal but as usual they will scam us by forcing us to by f16 first

 

[silentassassin265]

Russia’s economy is significantly smaller than that of China—and even India—yet its military-industrial complex is far more advanced and expansive than China’s. why can’t India develop a military-industrial complex as large and advanced as Russia’s?

Because there economy was 2nd largest in the world for more than 50 yrs and mostly the money was spent on millitary.
Their current industry is just a remnant of past and will get surpassed by china in next decade

 

[BON PLAN]

There is no universe in which AMCA will enter production before 2040; all these 2035 dates are unrealistic, which is theoretically implausible. Any normal jet has a development period of 20 years, so realistically, AMCA will come in mid-2040s if it follows a normal development path, if compressed, it could be shrunk by 5 years, no way a 10-year compression which our infamous PSUs are promising!!

Not really.
it takes 10 years to developp a new radar. You already have a spin to do so (UTTAM).
It takes 10 years to developp from scratch, for R&R, PW, GE, Safran (ie mature engine makers), a new engine if the funds are there. It is your main weakness.
it takes 4 years to Dassault and Eurofighter to produce a new jet frame (Rafale A, EF2000) an some more to create an assembly line and fine tune the early standard (mainly air to air). With HAL you have to anticipate so more delay...

So it is possible to have in 10 years a potent jet, for mature ecosystem, with an initial clear specification, and with all the funds necessary.

In the indian case the ecosystem is not mature enough, and what about the funds ? See how many times it takes to choose a partner to study a new engine .....

So my bet is 15 years in the indian case. worst than the 10 years of the best, but better than your 20 years.
=> 2040 seems possible.

 

[BON PLAN]

To all F35 and Su57 stans , I need to understand what is your understanding about future wars (with Pakistan only ) will look like ?
Do you think that Pakistan will use J35 and to counter that we will use Su57/F35 and the one who will put a first lock will score the kill .

All this 5th Gen buying is putting a hole in our already deficit funds . We need to build our own 5th Gen and in meanwhile focus on BETTER RADARS WHICH CAN DETECT 5TH GEN .
The moment you will get breakthrough there all 5th Gen tech will go for a toss ..

the actual so called 5th gen fighters, and the future 6th one (including F47, CGAP, SCAF, chinese new jets...) are or will be only stealth to high band radars, like X band fighter radars.
Never to low band radar (because they are too small ! only B2 or B21 kind of birds may be stealthy to low band radar also).
=> the future to detect stealthy jets is :
Or low band radar as a low accuracy detection, complete by IR or high band radar for fine tune at low range.
Or multistatic radars network.

And don't forget that any jet is not IR stealthy... specially if you have to use big engine because your stealthy jet is fat.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Seems like India will buy Su 57E while AMCA gets ready by 2035. US is pissed that we are not even considering the F 35A for use by the IAF.


View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1929717632380371195


View: https://x.com/sanjeev__kapoor/status/1929208429320495556

You know IAF is cooked when even it's retried Air Marshals are importkhor dallas.

The same lot who refused to induct Tejas calling it a 3 legged cheetah are now dropping their pants and bending over for the one eyed monkey that is Su 57.

Tejas in 2009 was a far better 4th gen aircraft than SU 57 is a 5th gen aircraft in 2025

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I would lean on the LESS side as there'll be no immediate need for a more powerful engine than the 110kn one

It depends on configuation of weights of airframe, fuel, weapons.
For ATWR = 1.1, 2x 110 KN engine would allow 1.9 tons IWB payload.

But as per your desire to have central IWB & carry -NG (1.2-1.5 tons) + expanded structural weight (say 2 tons), would need at least a 124 KN engine for same ATWR=1.1

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

You know IAF is cooked when even it's retried Air Marshals are importkhor dallas.

The same lot who refused to induct Tejas calling it a 3 legged cheetah are now dropping their pants and bending over for the one eyed monkey that is Su 57.

Tejas in 2009 was a far better 4th gen aircraft than SU 57 is a 5th gen aircraft in 2025

Su-57 is not true 5gen due to shape issues, etc, but it is like 4.8gen, better than any Su-3X. So LCA cannot be compared to Su-57 on any parameter like weight, stealth, agility, payload, electricity, EW, etc.

 

[silentassassin265]

Su-57 is not true 5gen due to shape issues, etc, but it is like 4.8gen, better than any Su-3X. So LCA cannot be compared to Su-57 on any parameter like weight, stealth, agility, payload, electricity, EW, etc.

Su 57 will easily outperform anything in mrfa

 

[randombully]

I really wonder what new name they will give to AMCA when it gets inducted. Like what Indigenous/Sanskrit name should be appropriate for AMCA.

Mrigaya (मृगया).
Kaalvet (कालवेत).
Vetaal (वेताल).
Bhairav (भैरव).
GANDABHERUNDA (गण्डभेरुण्ड).
VYALA (व्याल).

 

[pipebomb]

Su-57 is not true 5gen due to shape issues, etc, but it is like 4.8gen, better than any Su-3X. So LCA cannot be compared to Su-57 on any parameter like weight, stealth, agility, payload, electricity, EW, etc.

What's a 5th gen aircraft ?

- supercruise ? Eurofighter has it

- IWB ? F-111 has it or even ww2 aircrafts

- planform alignment ? J-20 doesn't have it even though it's considered a 5th gen

So there's no hard and fast rule to define a 5th gen. It's a combination of features, even though those features were present in previous gen fighters

I would say an aircraft with adequate frontal stealth for penetration of AD dense airspace, deploy payload and egress without afterburner at supersonic speed, would be considered a 5th gen

By that definition su-57 is a 5th gen even if it's not as stealthy as f-22

 

[silentassassin265]

What's a 5th gen aircraft ?

- supercruise ? Eurofighter has it

- IWB ? F-111 has it or even ww2 aircrafts

- planform alignment ? J-20 doesn't have it even though it's considered a 5th gen

So there's no hard and fast rule to define a 5th gen. It's a combination of features, even though those features were present in previous gen fighters

I would say an aircraft with adequate frontal stealth for penetration of AD dense airspace, deploy payload and egress without afterburner at supersonic speed, would be considered a 5th gen

By that definition su-57 is a 5th gen even if it's not as stealthy as f-22

Su 57 frontal radar cross section is 0.1 and rear section has similar rcs as 4th gen fighter as the engines are completely exposed.
The issue is with the design itself, awacs will be able spot su57 from far away, j20 and j35 radar cross section is confidential but design wise it looks much stealthier

 

[pipebomb]

Su 57 frontal radar cross section is 0.1 and rear section has similar rcs as 4th gen fighter as the engines are completely exposed.
The issue is with the design itself, awacs will be able spot su57 from far away, j20 and j35 radar cross section is confidential but design wise it looks much stealthier

My comment was in general not just about su 57

You're right su 57 frontal rcs isn't adequate but neither is j-20's with those huge misaligned canards and f-35's rear rcs is also similar to '4th gen' aircraft

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

What's a 5th gen aircraft ?

- supercruise ? Eurofighter has it

- IWB ? F-111 has it or even ww2 aircrafts

- planform alignment ? J-20 doesn't have it even though it's considered a 5th gen

So there's no hard and fast rule to define a 5th gen. It's a combination of features, even though those features were present in previous gen fighters

I would say an aircraft with adequate frontal stealth for penetration of AD dense airspace, deploy payload and egress without afterburner at supersonic speed, would be considered a 5th gen

By that definition su-57 is a 5th gen even if it's not as stealthy as f-22

You're right. It is a combination of features, whatever best a maker can put in the airframe as per state of tech R&D in an era. Coincidentally, USA has been leading many domains of tech bcoz after WWs they understood that R&D is the only way to lead & dominate. Hence for 5gen, USA defined it in 1980s/90s to be combo of good RF stealth (geometry + RAS + RAM + good EW) + good IR stealth + sensor fusion + limited but sufficient networking + Supercruise.

Bcoz F-35 was exported JSF, hence everything cannot be given or not up tp top notch, or tech edge would be lost. Its RCS is said to be 0.001 sqm, 10x than F-22's. It has much more bumps, surface discontinuities, ladder, IFRP, canopy arc, EOTS, etc which raise RCS.

J-20 has canards but what ultimately matters is returned RCS value due to combo of all features. The F-47 & F/A-XX might have canards. F-22's rudders much bigger than Su-57's still RCS lowest.

All domains have standards/segments/scale(SSS), so some products outshine others, leaders & laggers naturally develop.
So in RCS aspect, F-22 set the SSS so damn high at 0.0001 sqm that till date after 35 years also no jet has achieved it, all bcoz of R&D for which money comes from various exports in dominated domains.
Russians have strong survival attitude, won't bend before others, but their economy/currency strength is like ours.
Only frontal RCS doesn't matter, bcoz once a jet ingress then geographically it is surrounded by ground radars & AEW&C. That's why geometry, RAS, RAM, IR stealth with nozzle & engine treatments & rear RF stealth are also given high importance. Just the geometry & RAS are said to reduce RCS more than half.

So if we make the scale of all features & give points for each feature then if F-22 is 5gen then Su-57 would be like 4.8 gen, better than MLUed 4.5gen.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Guys it's getting off topic. One should recognize when some discussion become superficial and don't add to the core subject of a thread.

Please move to chit chat thread for any further discussion on names.

 

[randombully]

Cremation ground room sized??? Ever seen tarapith mahashmashan???

As for amca, it can make enemy ground burn till ashes just like pyres burn in shmashan
And amca would be seen like the one who makes the enemy land a cremation ground or invites it

Or best option

Name amca - Aghor

Aghor se bheter "Bhairav" hai.