AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Pundit Pikachu]

Su-57 is not true 5gen due to shape issues, etc, but it is like 4.8gen, better than any Su-3X. So LCA cannot be compared to Su-57 on any parameter like weight, stealth, agility, payload, electricity, EW, etc.

I am not sure if I worded it wrong or you understood it wrong I am not comparing Tejas with Su 57 instead what I am trying to say is that Tejas is closer to the proverbial perfect 4.5th gen aircraft than SU 57 is closer to the proverbial perfect 5th gen aircraft

 

[Neil (नील/Нил)]

Seeing Dassault Aviation's recent tie-up with TATA Advanced Systems to manufacture Rafale's fuselage in India makes me optimistic about the TATA group being given the responsibility of producing the AMCA.
Along with TATA, we can rope in more private players for AMCA's production. Manufacturing an advanced aircraft like the AMCA quickly and in big numbers will require a joint effort by both PSUs and Private Sector Companies.
My rudimentary understanding of economics tells me that private players always look for profit as their first priority.
With this in mind, I don't know how willing the TATA group would be in production of AMCA because being a private player it wouldn't want to stick it's hands into something which wouldn't give it profit.
Ideally we need to showcase developments in the AMCA program indicating steady progress (Debatable) which will encourage participation from the private sector, and not shy them away.

 

[Doreamon]

Seeing Dassault Aviation's recent tie-up with TATA Advanced Systems to manufacture Rafale's fuselage in India makes me optimistic about the TATA group being given the responsibility of producing the AMCA.
Along with TATA, we can rope in more private players for AMCA's production. Manufacturing an advanced aircraft like the AMCA quickly and in big numbers will require a joint effort by both PSUs and Private Sector Companies.
My rudimentary understanding of economics tells me that private players always look for profit as their first priority.
With this in mind, I don't know how willing the TATA group would be in production of AMCA because being a private player it wouldn't want to stick it's hands into something which wouldn't give it profit.
Ideally we need to showcase developments in the AMCA program indicating steady progress (Debatable) which will encourage participation from the private sector, and not shy them away.

What made you think AMCA project ll nt provide profit ? This mmrca is last mmrca . IAF ll only buy local fighterjets after that or with a tie up with another country . IAF is very large and maintain large number of fighter jets and other assets . India is growing and ll have large defence spending due to security risks . Google search income of chinese and American aerospace companies . Any company or group of company that get it's hand in AMCA will lead Indian aerospace manufacturing of future . It's a gold mine .

 

[strat]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d3WzUjg6tw
Ummm , so just confirming some news for everyone . Project was sanctioned last year and prototype manufacturing is going on . So were the recent statements by the Def minister only related to the serial production of aircrafts? and not the prototypes

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

AMCA width 36'6" / length 57'9" / empty weight 12 tons / Internal fuel 6.5 tons.
F-18E/F width 44'8" / length 60'1" / empty weight 14.5 tons / Internal fuel 6.7 tons.
After seeing skinny 4gen F-18 SH with same 2x F414 engines & enjoying versatility of high loadout including EW pods, i decided to push AMCA's design potential as per its dimensions.

5gen design brings AAMs very close inside IWB in staggered order. The fins of AAMs were clipped.
6gen focuses on more capacity of everything & AMCA is being pitched as 5.5gen, so capacity should be increased IMO.

Bcoz AAMs already don't have 100% PK (Probability of Kill) & DEW-CIWS or DECM (Directed Energy Counter Measure), so the next step is to pack more AAMs in same space.
NOTE- After shooting BVR-AAMs the tactic is not to merge for dogfight like in movies, videogames, but make U-turn & continue to stayout of enemy's AAM's NEZ till all BVR-AAMs are depleted.

The PL-15 might be 1st medium range AAM with folding fin.


View attachment 30676


But with AMCA's 0.75m IWB depth, 135 degrees of folding is not required, just 45 degrees up/down would suffice. The launcher would punch out the AAMs straight, so the folded fins would be aerodynamically in line with separation trajectory, would take less time to unfold & start flying the AAM.
Astr AAM dia. is 178mm.
In the 2,200mm wide IWB, 2x4 or even 2x5 AAMs might fit tightly.
If the folding can be done within 180mm width then 5x180=900mm would be needed for 5 AAMs, leaving 200/6= 33mm gap b/w the AAMs & with IWB side walls.
A scaled notional diagram of 3/4/5 AAMs looks like following:

View attachment 30693

With 10x BVR-AAMs + 4 CCMs = 10x154 + 4x88 = 1,892 Kg, 1.892/(12+6.5+1.892)=9.3% of STOW (earlier 1.1 tons was 5.6%).
Wet T/STOW ratio = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+6.5+1.892) = 0.98 (earlier 1.02)
With 50% fuel used & firing 4 BVR-AAMs, with 2 CCMs & 2 BVR-AAMs left, wet TWR = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+3.25+1.892) = 1.16 (earlier 1.24)

Now comparing this new potential with F-18 looks like following:

View attachment 30860

It looks like may be AMCA airframe volume can be expanded some more.

CAUTION - EVERYONE CAN HAVE THEIR OPINION BUT DO NOT COMPARE WITH GHATAK, CATS WARRIOR, ETC.

> Few months back in post #1050 on page 53 i showed that Astr-1 cannot be staggered & only 4x possible in IWB.
> Then a modified Astr-2 with short fin to aid in staggered positions in the IWB which would increase capacity from 4 to 6.
(The original Astr-1 AAM CAD is by artist Akela-Freedom & AMCA CAD by artist Kuntal Biswas)





> After seeing a preliminary low resolution bottom view of modified Astr-2 short folding fin AAM in post #758 on page 38,
then its front view in post #1315 on page 66 which can potentially increase IWB capacity to 8 AAMs.
Let's look at cleaner, enhanced diagram.



Let's superimpose this on IWB of AMCA

> So far i took pixel length of Astr-1 as reference which led to increased red outline of official dimensions of IWB.
This time i took the IWB CAD length of 530 pixels as reference for 4.2m long IWB.
So the length of 3.84m long Astr-2 AAM i'm taking as 968 pixels. It'll appear little shorter than AMCA CAD's Astr-1 length.
The red outine of official IW dimensions is retained.
Then 2x enlarge the overall pic.

> I'm not depicting SWB bcoz it is difficult to edit with IWB doors obstructing side walls. Moreover, previous depiction was just a notional edit, i've some other future ideas.

> A smaller LOAL IIR-CCM like NG-CCM identical to AIM-132 ASRAAM can also fit in. But i'm not depicting it now, may be in future.



Now let's look at relatively better front view.
AMCA width 11130mm = 1242 pixels
IWB width 2200mm = 245 pixels
IWB depth 750mm = 84 pixels
Astr AAM diameter 178 mm = 20 pixels
Then 3x expanded & better AAM CAD superimposed.



So we see the advantage of short-fin & folded-fin over current big fin Astr-1.
Those who think that adversary jets will be cola cans & our AAMs will have 100% PK, for them 2x2 AAMs in IWB will suffice.

 

[snakeeyes07]

> Few months back in post #1050 on page 53 i showed that Astr-1 cannot be staggered & only 4x possible in IWB.
> Then a modified Astr-2 with short fin to aid in staggered positions in the IWB which would increase capacity from 4 to 6.
(The original Astr-1 AAM CAD is by artist Akela-Freedom & AMCA CAD by artist Kuntal Biswas)


View attachment 38644


> After seeing a preliminary low resolution bottom view of modified Astr-2 short folding fin AAM in post #758 on page 38,
then its front view in post #1315 on page 66 which can potentially increase IWB capacity to 8 AAMs.
Let's look at cleaner, enhanced diagram.

View attachment 38641

Let's superimpose this on IWB of AMCA

> So far i took pixel length of Astr-1 as reference which led to increased red outline of official dimensions of IWB.
This time i took the IWB CAD length of 530 pixels as reference for 4.2m long IWB.
So the length of 3.84m long Astr-2 AAM i'm taking as 968 pixels. It'll appear little shorter than AMCA CAD's Astr-1 length.
The red outine of official IW dimensions is retained.
Then 2x enlarge the overall pic.

> I'm not depicting SWB bcoz it is difficult to edit with IWB doors obstructing side walls. Moreover, previous depiction was just a notional edit, i've some other future ideas.

> A smaller LOAL IIR-CCM like NG-CCM identical to AIM-132 ASRAAM can also fit in. But i'm not depicting it now, may be in future.

View attachment 38650


Now let's look at relatively better front view.
AMCA width 11130mm = 1242 pixels
IWB width 2200mm = 245 pixels
IWB depth 750mm = 84 pixels
Astr AAM diameter 178 mm = 20 pixels
Then 3x expanded & better AAM CAD superimposed.

View attachment 38689

So we see the advantage of short-in & folded-fin over current big fin Astr-1.
Those who think that adversary jets will be cola cans & our AAMs will have 100% PK, for them 2x2 AAMs in IWB will suffice.

VLSRAM which is inherited from Astra mk1 comes in a folded form factor. Maybe AMCA specific Astra mk2 can be created based on this.

 

[snakeeyes07]

VLSRAM which is inherited from Astra mk1 comes in a folded form factor. Maybe AMCA specific Astra mk2 can created based on this.
View attachment 38693
View attachment 38694

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bQwplpMR-hk

Based on this AMCA weapon bay prototype, the fins can become unfolded when the pylon arm is lowered for firing the missile.

 

[liberalredditor]

we aint getting 6 missiles in the current iwb unless and until new missile series is developed with shorter fins and more energy dense propellant.
as for shortening the astra mk2 fins, then it would no longer remain astra mk2 but become another new missile as it would be programmed for guidance according to its current control surface area

lets take those 4 missiles maybe astra mk3/gandiva and use ghatak and cats warrior as bomb and missile truck, cats can carry astra mk1 and ngccm easily with negligible rcs

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

VLSRAM which is inherited from Astra mk1 comes in a folded form factor. Maybe AMCA specific Astra mk2 can be created based on this.
View attachment 38693
View attachment 38694

Yeah something like that. All it needs are hinges & appropriate programming, testing, nothing monumental for DRDO. They have enough time till AMCA prototype flies.

As i already mentioned long back, i got the idea from AIM-120D with clipped fins.
The shortening of fins reduced weight, drag & may increase range little bit.
The AIM-260 JATM is specuated to have even shorter fins.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bQwplpMR-hk

Based on this AMCA weapon bay prototype, the fins can become unfolded when the pylon arm is lowered for firing the missile.

They already made F-22 style launcher which punches out the weapons. Thereafter the fins can unfold like a smart bomb, AGMs do.

 

[SKC]

View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1928013604046905629

View attachment 37729​

From being in Teenage when these projects started to reaching the age of having teens when they are promising to deliver the actual product, we have seen the world change but these Sarkari Labs, PSU and Babus did not change!​

 

[randombully]

From being in Teenage when these projects started to reaching the age of having teens when they are promising to deliver the actual product, we have seen the world change but these Sarkari Labs, PSU and Babus did not change!​

Blame doesn't lie with them, Sankari labs, psu in this case.

It lies with top leadership who delayed funding.

Infact from start of biulding prototypes,testing the prototypes, all the subsystems and get it ready for induction in 10 years, is on the faster side of developing next gen jet, specially for India.

Prototype building for rafale started in 1984



For example, rafale's first prototype/tech demonstrator flew in 1986.


Rafale single seater with lots of other design changes, considered actual first " prototype level" plane flew in 1991

Rafale naval flew in 1991.

And naval rafale entered service in in 2001.
And airforce rafale entered service in 2006.

From 1984 when prototyping phase started to actual induction in 2001.
That's 17 years.

Drdo is supposed to do it within 10 years.
While modern tech had made testing lot faster, but still 10 years is very ambitious.
Now if funding was cleared early and gov. Didn't delay the funding by 3 years, we could have first prototype of amca being rolled out this year.
Same with tejas mk2, funding for prototyping delayed by top leadership due engine tot issue.

 

[SKC]

Blame doesn't lie with them, Sankari labs, psu in this case.

It lies with top leadership who delayed funding.

Infact from start of biulding prototypes,testing the prototypes, all the subsystems and get it ready for induction in 10 years, is on the faster side of developing next gen jet, specially for India.

Prototype building for rafale started in 1984



For example, rafale's first prototype/tech demonstrator flew in 1986.


Rafale single seater with lots of other design changes, considered actual first " prototype level" plane flew in 1991

Rafale naval flew in 1991.

And naval rafale entered service in in 2001.
And airforce rafale entered service in 2006.

From 1984 when prototyping phase started to actual induction in 2001.
That's 17 years.

Drdo is supposed to do it within 10 years.

Let’s assume we had allocated $10 billion to the project back in 1984 — would the related agencies have delivered the aircraft on time?​

 

[randombully]

Let’s assume we had allocated $10 billion to the project back in 1984 — would the related agencies have delivered the aircraft on time?​

With this much money in 1984, they would.
Like that's too much money for 1984.

As for respectful answer, can't say yes or no.
But once again, for amca and tejas mk2, all the delays that happened were not the fault of drdo here, so drdo infact met all the work timelines for amca project and tejas mk2 project till now, all the delays were caused by top leadership for various reasons.