AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[LastMythin]

We need a bit deeper redesign considering AMCA won't be here till next decade or 15yrs

We can fit a variety of weapons in IWB if AMCA fuselage is widen. Such as BrahMos, Rudram or future hypersonic weaponsView attachment 38215View attachment 38216View attachment 38217

Above examples are only for illustration and not a 1:1 comparable

A deep redesign can increase weight but I don't think it will be much, may be 5%-7%. Any aircraft is a trade off of design choices after all. And with technological progress in jet engines you always fit a more powerful engine in future

redesigning it right now means it wont be in production until the 2050's, Might as well shut the down program then, what is even the point of a 5th gen plane in 2055 kek

 

[redpanda]

redesigning it right now means it wont be in production until the 2050's, Might as well shut the down program then, what is even the point of a 5th gen plane in 2055 kek

Exactly. I mean we can always do iterative development. Mk1A or Mk2 could always have higher IWB capacity. For our first 5th gen jet it, the current design is fine. I would be very happy if this flies within the scheduled timeline.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

We need a bit deeper redesign considering AMCA won't be here till next decade or 15yrs

We can fit a variety of weapons in IWB if AMCA fuselage is widen. Such as BrahMos, Rudram or future hypersonic weaponsView attachment 38215View attachment 38216View attachment 38217

Above examples are only for illustration and not a 1:1 comparable

A deep redesign can increase weight but I don't think it will be much, may be 5%-7%. Any aircraft is a trade off of design choices after all. And with technological progress in jet engines you always fit a more powerful engine in future

On page 39,40, you shared this idea already on 2nd Jan few months back & i edited AMCA CAD to show you, then you said it would be foolish to redesign AMCA like that & we should make a new jet altogether.

Post in thread 'AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft'

Jan 2, 2025

You got your basics all mixed up

Longitudinal/bigger IWB ≠ heavier fighter

F22 is bigger and has a higher thrust than f35 but still carry smaller/lighter payload plus f22 and has a smaller combat radius than f35

Russia is in a hard place economically and we should leverage their know how in aerodynamic control to redesign AMCA mk2

Current AMCA mk1 should go on as it is with GE f414 but AMCA mk2 should be a new/improved beast.

To loose some weight we should drop TVC requirement and also get rid of elavators. Move the engines apart and voila
View attachment 20447

> The thing about basics...

• Bhartiya Sainik

• 

 

[LastMythin]

Exactly. I mean we can always do iterative development. Mk1A or Mk2 could always have higher IWB capacity. For our first 5th gen jet it, the current design is fine. I would be very happy if this flies within the scheduled timeline.

All sensible organizations of any kind of importance have already moved to iterative development cycles. The ww2 batch production era is over, industry is now advanced enough to handle varied productions lines with relative efficiency.
I have heard this sort of noise from the ex-yada yada folks on xitter too and honestly it is baffling. Instead of working on miniaturizing our missile suite, You want to redesign the whole stealth jet on a fly???

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

redesigning it right now means it wont be in production until the 2050's, Might as well shut the down program then, what is even the point of a 5th gen plane in 2055 kek

Exactly. I mean we can always do iterative development. Mk1A or Mk2 could always have higher IWB capacity. For our first 5th gen jet it, the current design is fine. I would be very happy if this flies within the scheduled timeline.

> Soviets helped build our Steel Plants & other factories in previous century. We've private sec. plants too.
> YF-22 was re-designed in 3 months using primitive CAD in 1987 & made in 3 years 1987-90.
> We had our IT boom in 1990s. 10s of 1000s of tech grads have passed out since then every year.
> AutoCAD, CATIA kind of S/w were well known then also. Today we've AI/ML enabled S/w.
> We've far better super computers now than Param-2000.

Still if our DoD needs huge design time then it is clear indication of massive corruption & needs heavy crack-down & court of enquiry.

 

[pipebomb]

On page 39,40, you shared this idea already on 2nd Jan few months back & i edited AMCA CAD to show you, then you said it would be foolish to redesign AMCA like that & we should make a new jet altogether.

Post in thread 'AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft'

Jan 2, 2025

You got your basics all mixed up

Longitudinal/bigger IWB ≠ heavier fighter

F22 is bigger and has a higher thrust than f35 but still carry smaller/lighter payload plus f22 and has a smaller combat radius than f35

Russia is in a hard place economically and we should leverage their know how in aerodynamic control to redesign AMCA mk2

Current AMCA mk1 should go on as it is with GE f414 but AMCA mk2 should be a new/improved beast.

To loose some weight we should drop TVC requirement and also get rid of elavators. Move the engines apart and voila
View attachment 20447

> The thing about basics...

• Bhartiya Sainik

• 

But you have to consider the new timeline which changes everything.

First production AMCA won't be here before 2037 (both US & China would've inducted 6th gen into their air force by then) and 2037 (12 years) is a Hella Ambitious target for a production AMCA. There's zero movement on it's engine. Infact we doesn't even know who the lead integrator is. It took 5 years just to agree on which model to follow in it's development

 

[pipebomb]

redesigning it right now means it wont be in production until the 2050's, Might as well shut the down program then, what is even the point of a 5th gen plane in 2055 kek

I see a great opportunity for Russia here in aerodynamic design consultancy. They make a pretty buck and we get to future proof our next gen aircraft. Win-win for both

Genuinely curious, when do you think first production AMCA be inducted in IAF ? Do you think it's before 2040 ?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

But you have to consider the new timeline which changes everything.

First production AMCA won't be here before 2037 (both US & China would've inducted 6th gen into their air force by then) and 2037 (12 years) is a Hella Ambitious target for a production AMCA. There's zero movement on it's engine. Infact we doesn't even know who the lead integrator is. It took 5 years just to agree on which model to follow in it's development

Your idea is possible in a certain way, but AMCA will become AHCA.
The F414 class engine is the problem which is limiting the payload if wet stealth ATWR (Airframe Thrust to Weight Ratio) or wet T/STOW(Stealth Take Off Weight) = 1.1 has to be maintained.

 

[narasimh]

USA got RUBBED OFF
On 1 side Donald Trump wants to be friendly with Putin in the White House & then expect world to boycott him.
If USA wanna make global friends then it should respect their diplomacy, trade & commerce too rather than trying to make USD a global currency & keeping a leash on its exported jets like pet dog.=

What Americans truly want us that you be their client state aka bitch.. buy US weapons, keep it where it wants you to keep, use when it says, use against whom it wants and always be greatful while doing all that.
We should always have some friction with US.. this govt has been way too subservient.. showing no spine in some cases...especially the NRI boot licking is putting us in weaker position.. govt bending too much to the NRI wishes which must stop.. and I'm not talking only of the US passport holding NRIs but start from the green card holders.. this pravasi bharatiya natak should stop.. none of them lobby for India but will bash India to be a good brown boy for the whites

 

[LastMythin]

I see a great opportunity for Russia here in aerodynamic design consultancy. They make a pretty buck and we get to future proof our next gen aircraft. Win-win for both

Genuinely curious, when do you think first production AMCA be inducted in IAF ? Do you think it's before 2040 ?

Late 2030's if no stopgap, they will simply be rushed to put smthg out. If stop gaps are bought then early 2040's. Even with ruzzian consultancy the time factor is somewhat decreased but still too drastic a redesign and we are basically making a new plane

 

[Ajayant Tripathi]

I am amazed by the technical discussion between the members in preceding pages. It was very informative and engaging read. Kudos, love and thanks to you guys.

I don't think Pakistanis having a few 5th gen FA should make us loose our peace. In worst case scenario that weapon can just make two or three hits. They can get the same hits and the same success much more cheaply from missiles. It will be sensible for them to go and buy some HGVs. If all they want is to score one off hits.

Our 5th Gen program is actually geared to counter Chinese threat. Pakistan is a sideshow. We can't fight china with imported F35 even if Uncle Sam makes a very liberal deal. The only way to counter china is to invest in our own Air Defences and fight the war in Himalayas. It will be attritional and highly technological war. In that environment we will need a proper 5th Gen FA. We will not be fighting a successful war in Himalayas with 4th Gen FA. They will be easy prey and will be shot down very quickly.

 

[pipebomb]

Late 2030's if no stopgap, they will simply be rushed to put smthg out. If stop gaps are bought then early 2040's. Even with ruzzian consultancy the time factor is somewhat decreased but still too drastic a redesign and we are basically making a new plane

Not a new plane
- same 110kn engine
- same radar
- same avionics
- mostly common subsystems (as su57 have with su35)

 

[pipebomb]

Your idea is possible in a certain way, but AMCA will become AHCA.
The F414 class engine is the problem which is limiting the payload if wet stealth ATWR (Airframe Thrust to Weight Ratio) or wet T/STOW(Stealth Take Off Weight) = 1.1 has to be maintained.

It will be more or less of a jump to what f-18a/b to f-18e/f was

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

What Americans truly want us that you be their client state aka bitch.. buy US weapons, keep it where it wants you to keep, use when it says, use against whom it wants and always be greatful while doing all that.
We should always have some friction with US.. this govt has been way too subservient.. showing no spine in some cases...especially the NRI boot licking is putting us in weaker position.. govt bending too much to the NRI wishes which must stop.. and I'm not talking only of the US passport holding NRIs but start from the green card holders.. this pravasi bharatiya natak should stop.. none of them lobby for India but will bash India to be a good brown boy for the whites

I'm not into politics, i just watch daily news to know what's going on around world.
I liked Tulsi Gabbard kind of people over Kamala Harris types. So i hope people like TG would try to prevent Trump taking stupid decisions against India like CAATSA for example.
The NRIs went for education, job, so they just wanna succeed in their professional life & enjoy their personal life abroad. So they've to be diplomatic & be a Roman while in Rome or they'll be fired, harmed, arrested, deported or compelled to return.

If they agree to have F-35 customized as per our wish, like for Israel, then only it can be accepted as stopgap. But we can't allow it to impact AMCA.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It will be more or less of a jump to what f-18a/b to f-18e/f was

That was a significant jump actually.

 

[narasimh]

I'm not into politics, i just watch daily news to know what's going on around world.
I liked Tulsi Gabbard kind of people over Kamala Harris types. So i hope people like TG would try to prevent Trump taking stupid decisions against India like CAATSA for example.
The NRIs went for education, job, so they just wanna succeed in their professional life & enjoy their personal life abroad. So they've to be diplomatic & be a Roman while in Rome or they'll be fired, harmed, arrested, deported or compelled to return.

If they agree to have F-35 customized as per our wish, like for Israel, then only it can be accepted as stopgap. But we can't allow it to impact AMCA.

No qualms with them enjoying their lives.. it's the govt's policies that gives them too much importance where they have to bend the spine for no good reason.. the US plays it well in all its dealings including defense tech

 

[Kontakt5]

Seems like India will buy Su 57E while AMCA gets ready by 2035. US is pissed that we are not even considering the F 35A for use by the IAF.


View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1929717632380371195


View: https://x.com/sanjeev__kapoor/status/1929208429320495556

I was reading another military forum, and it seems Russians think the Su-57 is the best fifth-gen fighter and possess many sixth-gen technologies already. Personally I think it's cope or whatever and India should focus on solely developing AMCA, but if these are indeed true, a small batch of Su-57 could potentially help AMCA leapfrog to sixth-gen, especially in technology transfers of engine tech.

India should not be trusting other countries, but sucking them dry of their hidden technologies, This is the only true way of achieving strategic autonomy. Russia is not India's friend, nor is America. They want to rob and play with India's money. Stealing in return is only a gesture. In the future I have no hope for Russian aerospace, they are slowly becoming a failed state like pakistan. It's best india use as much technology from Russia as possible.

 

[Anantanaga]

He is speaking vague stuff like "some means" to counter Pakis stealth threats.

To put all our eggs in the AMCA while China operates hundreds of 5th gen and Pakistan in the process of acquiring a few squadrons is highly risky, considering the three decade development cycle we have seen with Tejas. It's 2025 and we have just a handful of em.

Its highly optimistic and frankly naive to think this paper airplane will be ready by 2040, let alone the ridiculousl predictions of being ready for induction by 2035.

That's just pure hopium and nothing else. Nothing from our history indicates this will be expedited to that extent.

We need to gain the ability to hit Pakis hard inside thier airspace without getting detected early. We need to have the ability to pose the same threat to them that they would to us when they get chinese 5th gen aircraft.

And please spare me the chinese equipment useless arguments. And the magic our layered AD and networking capabilities will weave to miraculously render all 5th gen AC ineffective.

We need to seriously consider the su 57 with whatever shortcomings it has.

Yes we rejected it in 2018, but the aircraft had improved since then and it was a stupid decision taken hastily in my opinion.

We should have worked with them to improve it. Now we have nothing and are out of options.

I am not buying the bs argument of 5th gen fighters being vaporware either when basically everyone is focused on them.

We need 5th gen in the next few years or the Pakis and Chinese will have a massive edge in terms of their threat projection and we will have nothing to project our own.

Anybody thinking we don't need it and can wait for the paper plane that is AMCA to materialize in 15 years needs to give their heads a good wobble.

The Su-57 is not really a fifth generation fighter, it's not match for the J-20 so forget it. Maybe we'll be able to convince uncle Sam to let us buy some F-35s

 

[me_itsme]

I may get hate for this but, I feel going for a SU-57 MKI would be the best choice at this time before AMCA gets into production. In the future upgraded 57 MKI would be an ideal replacement path to the super 30s too. We don't have to associate it with AMCA, it can be a precursor to AHCA. AHCA and AMCA combo, similar to the Su30 and mirage or Su30 and Rafale, there can be Su57MKI and AMCA down the line, a 57MKI and a Rafale/LCA MK2 combo would be ideal before AMCA.
May be split the MRFA between 57 and rafale and fast track LCA MK2 and AMCA. 57MKI could include AMCA avionics and other tech like radar, RAM coat etc modified for the 57 with the new Russian 5gen Russian engine. All of this manufactured using the existing Su30 line. This would ensure we have a somewhat Indian 5G fighter until AMCA and then upgrade the 57MKI under the AHCA program to a 5.5 or 6g platform. Will ensure we have a medium class and heavy class 5 gen fighters within 10-12 yrs.

 

[KiloLimaZulu]

Seems like India will buy Su 57E while AMCA gets ready by 2035. US is pissed that we are not even considering the F 35A for use by the IAF.


View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1929717632380371195


View: https://x.com/sanjeev__kapoor/status/1929208429320495556

basically, be an obedient dog like the pakis. This is not a administration thing. Its an establishment thing. Its just that the establishment got emboldened with the orangutan in white house