AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

It is collective effort b/w geometry, RAS, RAM, EW.
So Alpha, Beta, Theta, Gamma, Omega, etc have to work together.

 

[Indianhawk]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

1+1 =2 .
Physical stealth+ active measures== even more stealth.

 

[high_IQ_bharatiya_sainik]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

Can you please explain how active cancellation works?

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Another year, another model.
View attachment 21287

We will get that 3000 Black jets before Iron brothers on West.

 

[BON PLAN]

Can you please explain how active cancellation works?

theorically you send the foe emitter a signal in the opposition phase of the one received, and with the right energy level. The two are cancelling each other.

In practice it is all but not easy.
The electronic treatment have to be fast enough (specially against LPI radars).
You have to know exactly what is your RCS for every direction and for every external load (that explain why anechoic chambers are more and more used, and why it is easier on a bird without external load).

It is all my knowledge.

A 2006 training in Scotland between french Rafale and GB EF2000 was interesting : it seems the french pilots at least one time used a "war mode" of Spectra : the EF pilots saw the Rafale but their radars were unable to catch them.

 

[Spacemarine]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

India has its own Spectra equivalent its called Mayavi, but seems like passive stealth will not be able to catch up with latest large land based radars networks, both Spectra and Mayavi got fcked up in domestic exercises

 

[Spitfire IX]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

I have a doubt, are you schizophrenic? Dude, it's been only like 8-Months that it has been given CCS Approval leading to begining of construction of prototype. Atleast wait for 2 years. Also what's use of a Non-Stealthy 4.5th gen Airframe now that Chinese unveiled tailless sixth gen?

 

[Asmodeus]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

How does this work?? You could just ask for AMCA progress no need to rant about it..

 

[705-Lira]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

 

[BON PLAN]

India has its own Spectra equivalent its called Mayavi, but seems like passive stealth will not be able to catch up with latest large land based radars networks, both Spectra and Mayavi got fcked up in domestic exercises

Any stealth fighter can't do nothing against a ground or ship low band radar.
Low band and multistatic radars can't be "jammed" by stealth or electronic counter measures.
It is why all new chise ships for exemples are fitted with low band radars. Sole problem : low band radars are not very accurate.

 

[BON PLAN]

The electronic treatment have to be fast enough (specially against LPI radars).

This why the treatment and the jamming power unit are in the same Spectra cell : to reduce the time of signal treatment.
I can't give more details because not an electronical engineer.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I have a doubt, are you schizophrenic? Dude, it's been only like 8-Months that it has been given CCS Approval leading to begining of construction of prototype. Atleast wait for 2 years. Also what's use of a Non-Stealthy 4.5th gen Airframe now that Chinese unveiled tailless sixth gen?

I see KF-21, except in A2A mode, as an F-16 competitor. I guess that in A2A mode it is stealthier than the other western 4G fighters. But it is an aircraft designed, I think, with enhanced possibilities for redesign into an aircraft with an IWB.

It was good to hear of the launch of the AMCA development programme early 2024. I don't expect prototypes to start rolling out in 6 months. What I do expect is for arrangements to build the production aircraft to be made before completion of testing. Reaching certification quickly benefits IAF not one jot if AMCA is then ready for production but production cannot start because it has not been organised in advance..

 

[Indianhawk]

I see KF-21, except in A2A mode, as an F-16 competitor. I guess that in A2A mode it is stealthier than the other western 4G fighters. But it is an aircraft designed, I think, with enhanced possibilities for redesign into an aircraft with an IWB.

It was good to hear of the launch of the AMCA development programme early 2024. I don't expect prototypes to start rolling out in 6 months. What I do expect is for arrangements to build the production aircraft to be made before completion of testing. Reaching certification quickly benefits IAF not one jot if AMCA is then ready for production but production cannot start because it has not been organised in advance..

Kf 21 is twin engined . F16 is single engined . So kf21 will be much much more expensive to own and operate compared to f16. It shall also be much more capable.

The competition to f16 shall be from gripen ng and lca mk2 . Both of which have more modern airframe compared to legacy f16.

Kf21 equivalent shall be tedbf if it's sanctioned. Even then tedbf will be a baby oriented design hence still much different from kf21. But both will share twin f414 engines and semi stealth shaping with 5th gen equivalent avionics.

 

[Indianhawk]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

Well we get Information in bits and pieces.
Regarding airframe we know that s shaped intake duct was ready long time ago. Pictures were on this very forum.
We have also seen various composite skins from drdo. We also had pictures of metal bulkhead iirc .

RCS reduction coatings are ready by various reports.

Coming to avionics we know that massive aesa for su30mki is in airbone testing on flying test bed. Amca mk1 may get a very similar radar ( with gan components ofcourse). We know irst and maws are almost ready for lca mk2 which will get ported to Amca mk1 with suitable improvements.
We now know that spectra type active stealth suit is in progress to enhance stealth further.

Ew suits shall be a combination of ew suits developed for mig29, lca mk2 and now su30 mki upgrade.

Low and high band jamming pods are developed for mki , they shall be ported internally to Amca mk1.

So all these things are more or less ready atleast for mk1.

Display can directly be ported from lca mk2 wide area display, so can most of the cockpit including pilot stick and helmet.

Engine deal shall be signed by March for mk1 ( f414 with domestic manufacturing). For prototypes 10 engines are sufficient.

Weapons wise - weapons bay mechanism has been demonstrated. Size of missiles is yet to confirm but glide bombs are already available.
All varients if astra can be modified for internal carriage with some compromise in their range.
Externally all available weaponry for lca mk2 and su30mki shall be compatible with Amca .

Drones - hal cats warrior has started ground runs. Many more in various stage of development. Ghatak stealth drone is also in prototyping stage. Shall be far more stealthy than Amca mk1.

Thanks to lca , lca mk2 and su30mki upgrade program most of the stuff for Amca is already operational or very close to being operational.

Thanks to rafale Amca will have to measure it's rcs against one of the best electronic warfare suits of the world.

 

[shade2]

Well we get Information in bits and pieces.
Regarding airframe we know that s shaped intake duct was ready long time ago. Pictures were on this very forum.
We have also seen various composite skins from drdo. We also had pictures of metal bulkhead iirc .

RCS reduction coatings are ready by various reports.

Coming to avionics we know that massive aesa for su30mki is in airbone testing on flying test bed. Amca mk1 may get a very similar radar ( with gan components ofcourse). We know irst and maws are almost ready for lca mk2 which will get ported to Amca mk1 with suitable improvements.
We now know that spectra type active stealth suit is in progress to enhance stealth further.

Ew suits shall be a combination of ew suits developed for mig29, lca mk2 and now su30 mki upgrade.

Low and high band jamming pods are developed for mki , they shall be ported internally to Amca mk1.

So all these things are more or less ready atleast for mk1.

Display can directly be ported from lca mk2 wide area display, so can most of the cockpit including pilot stick and helmet.

Engine deal shall be signed by March for mk1 ( f414 with domestic manufacturing). For prototypes 10 engines are sufficient.

Weapons wise - weapons bay mechanism has been demonstrated. Size of missiles is yet to confirm but glide bombs are already available.
All varients if astra can be modified for internal carriage with some compromise in their range.
Externally all available weaponry for lca mk2 and su30mki shall be compatible with Amca .

Drones - hal cats warrior has started ground runs. Many more in various stage of development. Ghatak stealth drone is also in prototyping stage. Shall be far more stealthy than Amca mk1.

Thanks to lca , lca mk2 and su30mki upgrade program most of the stuff for Amca is already operational or very close to being operational.

Thanks to rafale Amca will have to measure it's rcs against one of the best electronic warfare suits of the world.

Thanks for giving a detailed listing of what all has been developed for AMCA in one place

 

[vampyrbladez]

I see KF-21, except in A2A mode, as an F-16 competitor. I guess that in A2A mode it is stealthier than the other western 4G fighters. But it is an aircraft designed, I think, with enhanced possibilities for redesign into an aircraft with an IWB.

Kf 21 is twin engined . F16 is single engined . So kf21 will be much much more expensive to own and operate compared to f16. It shall also be much more capable.

• KF 21 is NOT a 5th Generation fighter jet. It's the pinnacle of 4th generation fighter design. There are plans to have a KF 21EX variant which would be a true 5th generation fighter aircraft.
  
  
• This just proves that you cannot directly jump to a 5th generation design without an intermediary 4th generation platform to build up industrial capacity.

• India has sort of followed this path of iterative development by first working on the Tejas MK2 and then the AMCA.

View: https://x.com/manishindiatv/status/1552259229569785856

• Roll out of Tejas MK2 is scheduled from October 2025 - March 2026 and first flight in 2026.

https://idrw.org/tejas-mk2-rollout-in-march-2026-development-gains-momentum/

• Roll out of AMCA is scheduled from October 2026 - March 2027 and first flight in 2027-2028.

https://idrw.org/indias-5th-gen-amca-program-makes-steady-progress-first-flight-target-set-for-2028/

• Metal cutting of Tejas MK2 started in 2021 and prototype manufacturing takes 3.5 years so rollout in late 2025 is fairly reasonable.

The Metal-cutting for the Tejas Mark 2 started in February 2021.

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-hal-to-develop-lca-mk2-at-a-total-cost-of-rs-9000-crore-2656351/

The metal cutting will take about a year to 18 months.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/metal-cutting-job-for-tejas-to-begin-in-feb/story-wyYM6Iwz0HsC1XHkDUlX3K.html

• Metal cutting for AMCA started in 2022 so extrapolating the same 2026-2027 rollout and 2027-2028 first flight is perfectly reasonable.

View: https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1547164027062976513

• The projected timelines for IOC to FOC and inductions have been covered in an earlier post of mine.
  

Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.