AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

It is collective effort b/w geometry, RAS, RAM, EW.
So Alpha, Beta, Theta, Gamma, Omega, etc have to work together.

 

[Indianhawk]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

1+1 =2 .
Physical stealth+ active measures== even more stealth.

 

[high_IQ_bharatiya_sainik]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

Can you please explain how active cancellation works?

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Another year, another model.
View attachment 21287

We will get that 3000 Black jets before Iron brothers on West.

 

[BON PLAN]

Can you please explain how active cancellation works?

theorically you send the foe emitter a signal in the opposition phase of the one received, and with the right energy level. The two are cancelling each other.

In practice it is all but not easy.
The electronic treatment have to be fast enough (specially against LPI radars).
You have to know exactly what is your RCS for every direction and for every external load (that explain why anechoic chambers are more and more used, and why it is easier on a bird without external load).

It is all my knowledge.

A 2006 training in Scotland between french Rafale and GB EF2000 was interesting : it seems the french pilots at least one time used a "war mode" of Spectra : the EF pilots saw the Rafale but their radars were unable to catch them.

 

[Spacemarine]

Strange....
I thought low RCS was the alfa and omega.
Seems that Spectra wasn't a bad idea.....

India has its own Spectra equivalent its called Mayavi, but seems like passive stealth will not be able to catch up with latest large land based radars networks, both Spectra and Mayavi got fcked up in domestic exercises

 

[Spitfire IX]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

I have a doubt, are you schizophrenic? Dude, it's been only like 8-Months that it has been given CCS Approval leading to begining of construction of prototype. Atleast wait for 2 years. Also what's use of a Non-Stealthy 4.5th gen Airframe now that Chinese unveiled tailless sixth gen?

 

[Asmodeus]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

How does this work?? You could just ask for AMCA progress no need to rant about it..

 

[705-Lira]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

 

[BON PLAN]

India has its own Spectra equivalent its called Mayavi, but seems like passive stealth will not be able to catch up with latest large land based radars networks, both Spectra and Mayavi got fcked up in domestic exercises

Any stealth fighter can't do nothing against a ground or ship low band radar.
Low band and multistatic radars can't be "jammed" by stealth or electronic counter measures.
It is why all new chise ships for exemples are fitted with low band radars. Sole problem : low band radars are not very accurate.

 

[BON PLAN]

The electronic treatment have to be fast enough (specially against LPI radars).

This why the treatment and the jamming power unit are in the same Spectra cell : to reduce the time of signal treatment.
I can't give more details because not an electronical engineer.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I have a doubt, are you schizophrenic? Dude, it's been only like 8-Months that it has been given CCS Approval leading to begining of construction of prototype. Atleast wait for 2 years. Also what's use of a Non-Stealthy 4.5th gen Airframe now that Chinese unveiled tailless sixth gen?

I see KF-21, except in A2A mode, as an F-16 competitor. I guess that in A2A mode it is stealthier than the other western 4G fighters. But it is an aircraft designed, I think, with enhanced possibilities for redesign into an aircraft with an IWB.

It was good to hear of the launch of the AMCA development programme early 2024. I don't expect prototypes to start rolling out in 6 months. What I do expect is for arrangements to build the production aircraft to be made before completion of testing. Reaching certification quickly benefits IAF not one jot if AMCA is then ready for production but production cannot start because it has not been organised in advance..

 

[Indianhawk]

I see KF-21, except in A2A mode, as an F-16 competitor. I guess that in A2A mode it is stealthier than the other western 4G fighters. But it is an aircraft designed, I think, with enhanced possibilities for redesign into an aircraft with an IWB.

It was good to hear of the launch of the AMCA development programme early 2024. I don't expect prototypes to start rolling out in 6 months. What I do expect is for arrangements to build the production aircraft to be made before completion of testing. Reaching certification quickly benefits IAF not one jot if AMCA is then ready for production but production cannot start because it has not been organised in advance..

Kf 21 is twin engined . F16 is single engined . So kf21 will be much much more expensive to own and operate compared to f16. It shall also be much more capable.

The competition to f16 shall be from gripen ng and lca mk2 . Both of which have more modern airframe compared to legacy f16.

Kf21 equivalent shall be tedbf if it's sanctioned. Even then tedbf will be a baby oriented design hence still much different from kf21. But both will share twin f414 engines and semi stealth shaping with 5th gen equivalent avionics.

 

[Indianhawk]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

Well we get Information in bits and pieces.
Regarding airframe we know that s shaped intake duct was ready long time ago. Pictures were on this very forum.
We have also seen various composite skins from drdo. We also had pictures of metal bulkhead iirc .

RCS reduction coatings are ready by various reports.

Coming to avionics we know that massive aesa for su30mki is in airbone testing on flying test bed. Amca mk1 may get a very similar radar ( with gan components ofcourse). We know irst and maws are almost ready for lca mk2 which will get ported to Amca mk1 with suitable improvements.
We now know that spectra type active stealth suit is in progress to enhance stealth further.

Ew suits shall be a combination of ew suits developed for mig29, lca mk2 and now su30 mki upgrade.

Low and high band jamming pods are developed for mki , they shall be ported internally to Amca mk1.

So all these things are more or less ready atleast for mk1.

Display can directly be ported from lca mk2 wide area display, so can most of the cockpit including pilot stick and helmet.

Engine deal shall be signed by March for mk1 ( f414 with domestic manufacturing). For prototypes 10 engines are sufficient.

Weapons wise - weapons bay mechanism has been demonstrated. Size of missiles is yet to confirm but glide bombs are already available.
All varients if astra can be modified for internal carriage with some compromise in their range.
Externally all available weaponry for lca mk2 and su30mki shall be compatible with Amca .

Drones - hal cats warrior has started ground runs. Many more in various stage of development. Ghatak stealth drone is also in prototyping stage. Shall be far more stealthy than Amca mk1.

Thanks to lca , lca mk2 and su30mki upgrade program most of the stuff for Amca is already operational or very close to being operational.

Thanks to rafale Amca will have to measure it's rcs against one of the best electronic warfare suits of the world.

 

[shade2]

Well we get Information in bits and pieces.
Regarding airframe we know that s shaped intake duct was ready long time ago. Pictures were on this very forum.
We have also seen various composite skins from drdo. We also had pictures of metal bulkhead iirc .

RCS reduction coatings are ready by various reports.

Coming to avionics we know that massive aesa for su30mki is in airbone testing on flying test bed. Amca mk1 may get a very similar radar ( with gan components ofcourse). We know irst and maws are almost ready for lca mk2 which will get ported to Amca mk1 with suitable improvements.
We now know that spectra type active stealth suit is in progress to enhance stealth further.

Ew suits shall be a combination of ew suits developed for mig29, lca mk2 and now su30 mki upgrade.

Low and high band jamming pods are developed for mki , they shall be ported internally to Amca mk1.

So all these things are more or less ready atleast for mk1.

Display can directly be ported from lca mk2 wide area display, so can most of the cockpit including pilot stick and helmet.

Engine deal shall be signed by March for mk1 ( f414 with domestic manufacturing). For prototypes 10 engines are sufficient.

Weapons wise - weapons bay mechanism has been demonstrated. Size of missiles is yet to confirm but glide bombs are already available.
All varients if astra can be modified for internal carriage with some compromise in their range.
Externally all available weaponry for lca mk2 and su30mki shall be compatible with Amca .

Drones - hal cats warrior has started ground runs. Many more in various stage of development. Ghatak stealth drone is also in prototyping stage. Shall be far more stealthy than Amca mk1.

Thanks to lca , lca mk2 and su30mki upgrade program most of the stuff for Amca is already operational or very close to being operational.

Thanks to rafale Amca will have to measure it's rcs against one of the best electronic warfare suits of the world.

Thanks for giving a detailed listing of what all has been developed for AMCA in one place

 

[vampyrbladez]

I see KF-21, except in A2A mode, as an F-16 competitor. I guess that in A2A mode it is stealthier than the other western 4G fighters. But it is an aircraft designed, I think, with enhanced possibilities for redesign into an aircraft with an IWB.

Kf 21 is twin engined . F16 is single engined . So kf21 will be much much more expensive to own and operate compared to f16. It shall also be much more capable.

• KF 21 is NOT a 5th Generation fighter jet. It's the pinnacle of 4th generation fighter design. There are plans to have a KF 21EX variant which would be a true 5th generation fighter aircraft.
  
  
• This just proves that you cannot directly jump to a 5th generation design without an intermediary 4th generation platform to build up industrial capacity.

• India has sort of followed this path of iterative development by first working on the Tejas MK2 and then the AMCA.

View: https://x.com/manishindiatv/status/1552259229569785856

• Roll out of Tejas MK2 is scheduled from October 2025 - March 2026 and first flight in 2026.

https://idrw.org/tejas-mk2-rollout-in-march-2026-development-gains-momentum/

• Roll out of AMCA is scheduled from October 2026 - March 2027 and first flight in 2027-2028.

https://idrw.org/indias-5th-gen-amca-program-makes-steady-progress-first-flight-target-set-for-2028/

• Metal cutting of Tejas MK2 started in 2021 and prototype manufacturing takes 3.5 years so rollout in late 2025 is fairly reasonable.

The Metal-cutting for the Tejas Mark 2 started in February 2021.

https://www.financialexpress.com/business/defence-hal-to-develop-lca-mk2-at-a-total-cost-of-rs-9000-crore-2656351/

The metal cutting will take about a year to 18 months.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/metal-cutting-job-for-tejas-to-begin-in-feb/story-wyYM6Iwz0HsC1XHkDUlX3K.html

• Metal cutting for AMCA started in 2022 so extrapolating the same 2026-2027 rollout and 2027-2028 first flight is perfectly reasonable.

View: https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1547164027062976513

• The projected timelines for IOC to FOC and inductions have been covered in an earlier post of mine.
  

Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

KF-21 is in production and ROK has launched a programme to develop an indigenous engine for it;. Deliveries of KF-21 are scheduled to start in 2026.

With the arrival of 1 (or 2?) more prototypes in 2025, TAI KAAN flight testing is expected to start in earnest this year with initial deliveries of the production aircraft expected 2028/2029. A licence production deal with Pakistan is looking imminent. Work is underway on designing an indigenous engine for KAAN.

Su-75 is nearing design completion but shows no signs of ever progressing into production.

What progress has been made with AMCA? I'm not talking of what future fantasies there are for the aircraft. I'm talking about what solid progress has been made.

> Building TD/prototype is supposed to be top secret activity, especially when building new jet/components. NGAD protoype is said to have been flown few years back but still no official photo, diagram of the jet or its components. At max we say that it looks like a delta & flew with XA-100/101 VCE engines. What did we know about B-21 before roll-out & flight? What about GCAP, FCAS, MiG-41?

> AMCA's metal cutting happened in 2022, so it'll be a secret period till its roll-out & flight. IMO this is emergency period for us so we need to test as many features as possible in least amount of prototypes.

> On different forums including this, there are threads for DRDO & PSUs where you might get good info.

> But there are 1000s of parts in a modern jet, some are generic, some are specific & secret.
Rest everything is guess, speculation, extrapolation.

- 2 gens in theory cannot have too much parts commonality otherwise they cant be said to be different gen.​

- Different gen &/or geometry means different aerodynamics means different FCS.​

- There are very few parts which are independent of gen or can be MLUed back currently like ejecton seat, cockpit displays, switch/button panels, HMDS, OBOGS, ECS, landing gear, actuators, battery, starter/generator, some sensors, etc.​

- Every part cannot be MLUed back bcoz it simply doesn't fit or incompatible tech specs.​

DoD/Manufacturer has to reveal what part goes into which platform. For example some common & specific parts for F-35 JSF:




There are many other slides & diagrams like above for different platforms.

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After unparalleled R&D on F-22, F-117, B-2, B-21, if S.Korea makes KF-21 w/o IWB, exposed surface bumps & gaps, external pods, bulb RWRs, blade antennas, etc, then from pure tech PoV it is not a good example at all.
However, S.Korea faces continious threat from N.Korea, China, Russia, hence it decided to produce incomplete KF-21 in emergency, apart from importing 40 F-35A delivered + 25 ordered. Future KF-21 will be complete 5/5.5gen. But till then this doesn't change science fact that incomplete one'll face higher threats from improved enemy radars, missiles, jets, compared to complete KF-21.

We're also facing Chinese threat & diminishing squadron bcoz of which LCA & MWF are made. But neither of them since 1990 till now in 35 years have been given stealth geometry. And TEDBF is also going to suffer. If AMCA Mk1 also turns out to be like incomplete KF-21 then there could be big social turmoil in the country.

Russian MiG-35 is different jet than MLUed MiG-29, with composite skin & under the skin, but it does not change science fact that it can't satisfy 5gen & 6gen characteristics. Same thing with Su-35 compared to all previous versions back till Su-27 & Su-35 Vs Su-57.
IDK what is future of Su-57, but the Sukhoi guys designing 1-engine stealthy Su-75 is in right direction for 5gen jet consuming nations. IDK what MiG guys will do in this segment.
But there will be MiG-41 which is quoted to be high supersonic, high altitude Interceptor. IDK if it can be called 6gen yet.

TFX/Kaan definitely seems to be moving well ahead.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

> Many people confuse b/w technology & platforms/products, b/w research & development, b/w theory & practical.

This just proves that you cannot directly jump to a 5th generation design without an intermediary 4th generation platform to build up industrial capacity.

It is a busted myth & misunderstanding. Depends on country to country with their geopolitics, education level, R&D investment, natural resources for materials, financial capability, urgency due to local threats, etc.

The supply-chain/MIC also have qualified people, doesn't start from primitive tech level.
For example, today's kids don't know Floppy, CD, DVD bcoz practically they don't need to, may be for tech history GK.

EU skipped 5gen. HOW? Bcoz education is tied with industry, research continued but deveopment of 5gen jet not made. WHY? Bcoz Russia has been stuck with Su-57 PAKFA & still it is not considered at level of true 5gen.
If Russia developed PAKFA in time almost equivalent to F-22 or F-35 at least then EU under pressure would have definitely developed two 5gen jets. Or at least a stealthy geometric version of EF-2000 & Rafale can be easily imagined.
Finally, they didn't want to wait for Russia to surprise reveal something & then react, hence they jumped to FCAS & GCAP to catch up with USA's NGAD.

In last 30 years we should have sufficiently built our industrial capacity by now. India had its IT boom in 1990s, 25+yrs now, but still we are mostly in service based mode.

Tata, Ambani guys have shown interest only in bagging deal to produce obsolete products like F-16/21, F-18, Gripen, etc, but not invest in R&D of critical things like engine, etc or hiring capable people & proposing their own combat jet designs. Quick personal profit is more important for them than national security.

Those students who give GRE, TOEFL like exams to study abroad, most don't want to come back due to sluggish industrial growth & end up settling abroad. This results in brain-drain.
For example, there are numerous YT videos about such Indian origin techies doing R&D in other countries like following, old videos now:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPQg84nzE5A


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ErEBkj_3PY

These NRIs & Indian origin people could have been part our DoD &/or private firms.

India has sort of followed this path of iterative development by first working on the Tejas MK2 and then the AMCA.

> Example of KF-21 iteration, happens with same product & takes lots of time but 1-engine 4gen delta-canard & 2-engine 5gen tandem bi-plane designs have nothing to do with eachother. MWF authorised in 2009, AMCA in 2010. So they're independent projects handled by different teams inside same organisations of ADA & DRDO.
They're also partially concurrent bcoz whatever latest components DRDO will make, some of them can be put in any brand new design, like i showed already, that's why people have illusion that AMCA benefits from MWF. Actually both benefited from concurrent R&D. It is just bad coincidence that MWF will fly 1st then AMCA, hence it can test some common components.
MWF actually benefited from Naval-LCA with levcons. If 2x F-404 engines were used then it would have been something like F-18 A/B/C/D.

> Some people say that problem is 1 body for design - ADA; 1 body for manufacturing - HAL; 1 body for components - DRDO. So no competition. Total monopoly. No expansion of facilities, etc.
Hence IAF chief got fedup finally & said -
- We really need to do something with private sector.
- Technology delayed is technology denied.
- Technology is of no use if doesn't come in time.

 

[Asmodeus]

If Russia developed PAKFA in time almost equivalent to F-22 or F-35 at least then EU under pressure would have definitely developed two 5gen jets.

That is so misleading. EU was made to loose their manifacturing prowess very strategically. SO that they can become a good market to sell stuff, This is very evident in their decreasing Naval assets. It is unrelated to Russian production. China has devloped on the other hand sufficient threat perception for EU to be scared. the individual countries in EU don't have sufficient resources to go for their own aircraft devlopement, quite the drama happened with eurofighter, we are yet to see how successful that FCAS/GCAP comes out. EU is declining in their capacity to be self-reliant
point to be noted here is every country that imported better fighters instead of getting their own now is at the mercy of their overlords. UK, Israel, Germany all immported F-35.
Israel had strong base devloped in Lavi but no one is talking about newer GEn tech now. same with UK. why?
China who invested in j10/j7 by buying Lavi research from Israel despite its shortcomings now stand at much better level than so called EU who have history of aircraft devlopement.(Now they can only badmouth Chinese like us claiming half their stuff is copied)
Technology imported is technology lost..
we could have devloped our industry in 30 years but our policies oursourced manifacturing to China. I think you are not looking deeper when China grew at our expense by building their capacity. We were only focused on IT side which gave us good results but defense products require technological advancements in all fields not one or two. Political leadership is to be blamed here instead of private players who were thrown under the bus in face if Chinese dumping policies. Even now our leadership refused to tax chinese steel, when they are denying us technology by banning relocation of plants.
HAL,DRDO,ADA have monopoly because they are the only survivers of open markets where every other country leaveraged their money and experience against our newly born, yet to mature private players. Like a step father GOI threw this newborn players in the arena of global warriors without second thought. OFC only public sector survives such cruelty.