AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

randombully said:
Engine is a "power source".
As said before, if you can fulfill the electrical power, thrust, range, endurance, speed, life cycle of engine( lets 5500- 6000 hours)etc requirements by using 3 less advanced 4/5 gen engines, than you Don't need 2 more advanced 6th gen adaptive cycle engines, they will still be more efficient, but that's the only extra desirable benefit they can give.
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Power generation is the second use of the engine. Main is thrust.
Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power.

See B52 : fitted with 4 'new' gen engines instead of 8 old one it can have a far more range or load or mix of the two.

So it's unclever to developp a next gen fighter with a older gen engine. At least for those who have the proper engine technology, and they are very few on earth. China real level is unknown.
 
randombully said:
Saurabh Jha on Twitter, said the engine for amca that will come out of jv will be a 5+gen one like f135 of f-35, not a adaptive cycle one.
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AMCA is in a advanced stage of R&D, so probably need a mature engine so as not to slow down the whole project.
A newer engine, with adaptative cyle, may be fitted later, during a MLU....

FCAS is expected for 2045. the prototyp (if really made) is to be powered with a M88 derivative, but the final engine will be far more advanced, so with adaptative cycle.
 
BON PLAN said:
Power generation is the second use of the engine. Main is thrust.
Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power.

See B52 : fitted with 4 'new' gen engines instead of 8 old one it can have a far more range or load or mix of the two.

So it's unclever to developp a next gen fighter with a older gen engine. At least for those who have the proper engine technology, and they are very few on earth. China real level is unknown.
Click to expand...
"Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power."

Look you you didn't understand, what if you don't need "more range", "more thrust" "more power".
Let's say you develop a fighter and parameters are "x km range" "y thrust to weight ratio" "Z electrical power".
If the use of 3 4th/5th gen can fulfill the x,y,z criteria than the only "desirable" advantage 6th gen adaptivecycle engine will have is "fuel efficiency" but at the same time more expensive,complex, maintenance.

now it will also give more range( but you don't need it), better thrust to weight( Don't need it).
Making a engine a bench mark of generation, just for the sake of engine is wrong, much better is to set parameters for performance(both physical and electronic, stealth)of a jet for 6th gen and see if it can match it.
Most countries set to meet those parameters by using next gen engines, china decided to met most of them( except efficiency) using 3 non-adaptive ones right now.
 
BON PLAN said:
AMCA is in a advanced stage of R&D, so probably need a mature engine so as not to slow down the whole project.
A newer engine, with adaptative cyle, may be fitted later, during a MLU....

FCAS is expected for 2045. the prototyp (if really made) is to be powered with a M88 derivative, but the final engine will be far more advanced, so with adaptative cycle.
Click to expand...
What if the 5+gen future engine of amca provides it with more than enough electrical power it will need for all future needs, enough thrust to supercruise at mach 1.4-1.6 with internal payload and desirable range? If those engines can't provide these then the case for engines that are even more efficient, powerful And with adaptive cycle is made.

From what I know, f35's f135 has "left" out electrical power even with blk 4 upgrades, and they are not planning to change to adaptive cycle ones for f35, they are planning to only change the core of f135 and they believe it will enough for "6th" additional capabilities( not the physical ones, like supercruise) that will be added in future.

Similarly there is news, that US navy is also planning to go without adaptive cycle engines for their fa-xx program.
 
randombully said:
"Every new engine generation is less fuel greedy, less weighty, so it give more range and/or more power."

Look you you didn't understand, what if you don't need "more range", "more thrust" "more power".
Let's say you develop a fighter and parameters are "x km range" "y thrust to weight ratio" "Z electrical power".
If the use of 3 4th/5th gen can fulfill the x,y,z criteria than the only "desirable" advantage 6th gen adaptivecycle engine will have is "fuel efficiency" but at the same time more expensive,complex, maintenance.

now it will also give more range( but you don't need it), better thrust to weight( Don't need it).
Making a engine a bench mark of generation, just for the sake of engine is wrong, much better is to set parameters for performance(both physical and electronic, stealth)of a jet for 6th gen and see if it can match it.
Most countries set to meet those parameters by using next gen engines, china decided to met most of them( except efficiency) using 3 non-adaptive ones right now.
Click to expand...
more fuel greedy engines = more range= less use of tankers = less logistic impact.
more fuel greedy engines = smaller bird = more stealthy = more survivability.
more fuel greedy engines = less costly to operate (once paid the jet purchase price, higher).
etc...

Same can be said about liners. An A320 NEO is costlier than an A320 CEO, but CEO will soon no more been product.
 
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BON PLAN said:
more fuel greedy engines = more range= less use of tankers = less logistic impact.
more fuel greedy engines = smaller bird = more stealthy = more survivability.
more fuel greedy engines = less costly to operate (once paid the jet purchase price, higher).
etc...

Same can be said about liners. An A320 NEO is costlier than an A320 CEO, but CEO will soon no more been product.
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Efficiency is the main thing of "civilian" engine, we're talking military here.

Smaller bird also means smaller internal weapons bay size and smaller lift generation which means reduction in payload weight.

Again range ain't gonna be a issue for j36, and as said before if "desired range" is already achieved then the extra range while a bonus is not a necessity.

" less costly to operate"- indeed efficiency increase will decrease fuel consumption, but that's the "only desirable" trait chinese j36 lacks.
And efficiency increase while desirable is not a important parameter.

I'm not saying 6th gen adaptive cycle won't be better, I'm saying they a not a "generational" necessity
 
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randombully said:
Efficiency is the main thing of "civilian" engine, we're talking military here.

Smaller bird also means smaller internal weapons bay size and smaller lift generation which means reduction in payload weight.

Again range ain't gonna be a issue for j36, and as said before if "desired range" is already achieved then the extra range while a bonus is not a necessity.

" less costly to operate"- indeed efficiency increase will decrease fuel consumption, but that's the "only desirable" trait chinese j36 lacks.
And efficiency increase while desirable is not a important parameter.

I'm not saying 6th gen adaptive cycle won't be better, I'm saying they a not a "generational" necessity
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They are. More thrust, more efficiency and more electricity are always required.

Higher the generation of a plane, higher electricity is required for its advanced avionics, sensors etc.

Higher thrust = Higher ranges of our AAMs + better chances of dodging enemy AAMs.

Similarly, higher efficiency = higher loitering time which is critical for interception of incoming enemy assets and quicker response against ground targets.

3 engines on Chinese plane = heavier plane, more expensive to fly and maintain & less payload.

India needs 6th gen adaptive cycle engine if it really wants advanced fighter jets.
 
GodEmperorDoom said:
Hmm isn't every 2 out of 3 message on this forum is about lamenting about appalling situation of Armed Forces. Is it some gotcha like? Enlightenment for us plebs from you?

Everyone with a braincell here knows that our asses gonna be whooped, it's only a matter of when. There is no need of your gyaan here.
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You may chose to ignore it. But I am pretty sure that everyone agrees that you are not representing the rest.
 
@randombully , @BON PLAN , @JTP, everybody else,
If you guys wanna discuss jet engine tech in general conceptually, then there is a thread
Bhartiya Sainik

Thread 'Understanding Jet Engine Technology'

Hello everyone,
Hot JET ENGINE has always been a hot topic of discussion, especially comparing them & trying to decipher capability of new upcoming engines.
Every machine, even the household ones are complex, but many people are great fans about bike/car engines, computers, phones, security systems, solar power systems, etc. And they discuss online or face to face on these things.

Similarly, let's make an effort to understand a jet engine in an easy way. You can share many Youtube videos & websites which don't get into complex mathematical model.
A picture/diagram/graph is worth...
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And airframe design apart from AMCA then also a thread is there
Bhartiya Sainik

Thread 'Understanding Aircraft Design'

Hello everyone,
Since childhood, Aircraft became part of our life in form of toys.
The very sight of it amazes people. Its sound gives goosebumps.
The global R&D in last 100 years has given some exceptional aircrafts of different types.
Numerous documentaries have been made, articles published.
People wonder what leads to a particular design.

Let's make a step by step effort to share our knowledge about airframe design -
- Basic diagram of an airplane
- How airplane flies
- Basic parts of airplane
- Types of airplanes
- Why airplanes look different w.r.t. their body, wings, etc
- Key...
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Bleh said:
Subsystem ready nahi hy prototype urake kya karoge?

Even integration of imported stopgaps will add to the timeline at this point
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That would still be better than no prototype development. First, develop all building blocks and then making a prototype is an old inefficient way to develop a project
 
TopWatcher said:
No govt serious about aerospace ecosystem and technology development in India.
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I think that is the case.

Competition eliminated by organisations, companies involved in fighter development all being owned/controlled by the government. That leads to low efficiency, low productivity, low accountability, ,late delivery. GOI steadfastly sticks to its failed model. New projects will fail to succeed just as other projects have failed.

No big surprise that projects fail. The big surprise would be if new ones run in the same way didn't result in a similar outcome.

Funding is not serious either. Could any major OEM - already having the know how to develop turbofans- have developed a GE F404 equivalent engine for $500 million? I don't think so. As for India: I would say impossible.
 
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