Chit Chat

[Ayan Barat]

I don't think that's well know acronym. Please mention full form in brackets next time.

C'mon Sir, please don't do this to me
At this point it feels like you're doing it intentionally

So you are not aware that laser pods have already been tested?

Yes Sir, I'm well aware with everything from SHiELD to LANCE to STRAFE.
But are you aware that most of these programs are either in hold or under review citing multiple technical issues?

I'm giving you two specific scenarios, please answer in the constraints to those.

1. Loss of power due to attenuation
Using Beer-Lambert Model (in GPT) to calculate the loss of power for a 1kW Infra-red laser fired at an altitude of 12km (typical for fighters) at a distance of 10km...it comes to 18%. So a kW laser would be roughly 800W at 10km. Which in turn means you'd need to pump a surplus of power to account for this attention, which in turn would mean a heightened SWaP requirment.

2. Reaction time
Let's say two Meteors are ripple fired at a target equipped with a laser pod. The time delay is 1sec so the gap should be around 500m (max Mach 4). At 10km from impact the fighter starts illuminating the leading missile. (The reason I'm using 10km is because it's what the typical maximum range for way more powerful land based lasers are, for airborne it'd be less). During endgame a missile like Meteor easily reaches Mach 4 so 10000/(4*340) = 8sec; 8 seconds is the time the laser would have to heat the missile enough to cause a malfunction. But let's say you're lucky and the laser somehow illuminated exactly where the warhead is and in just 5 seconds it detonates. But during this whole time the trailing missile was also there so now you've just 3 seconds left to acquire this second missile and start heating it.
This is one of the key inherent challenges of a laser weapons, it's not a fire-n-forget system like missiles

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

C'mon Sir, please don't do this to me
At this point it feels like you're doing it intentionally
View attachment 18631

Yes Sir, I'm well aware with everything from SHiELD to LANCE to STRAFE.
But are you aware that most of these programs are either in hold or under review citing multiple technical issues?

I'm giving you two specific scenarios, please answer in the constraints to those.

1. Loss of power due to attenuation
Using Beer-Lambert Model (in GPT) to calculate the loss of power for a 1kW Infra-red laser fired at an altitude of 12km (typical for fighters) at a distance of 10km...it comes to 18%. So a kW laser would be roughly 800W at 10km. Which in turn means you'd need to pump a surplus of power to account for this attention, which in turn would mean a heightened SWaP requirment.

2. Reaction time
Let's say two Meteors are ripple fired at a target equipped with a laser pod. The time delay is 1sec so the gap should be around 500m (max Mach 4). At 10km from impact the fighter starts illuminating the leading missile. (The reason I'm using 10km is because it's what the typical maximum range for way more powerful land based lasers are, for airborne it'd be less). During endgame a missile like Meteor easily reaches Mach 4 so 10000/(4*340) = 8sec; 8 seconds is the time the laser would have to heat the missile enough to cause a malfunction. But let's say you're lucky and the laser somehow illuminated exactly where the warhead is and in just 5 seconds it detonates. But during this whole time the trailing missile was also there so now you've just 3 seconds left to acquire this second missile and start heating it.
This is one of the key inherent challenges of a laser weapons, it's not a fire-n-forget system like missiles

Replied in DEW thread:

B

Thread 'Directed Energy Weapon R&D: LASER MASER Particle-Beam etc.'

Jul 30, 2024

We can showcase & discuss all the DEW R&D around the world here.
Nuke is considered a deterent but it will result in MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) & ruin the entire planet for decades to centuries if used.
DEW might become ultimate deterent & supplement SAMs, AAMs, AGMs. It might compel to reduce size of forces, or at least humans in forces.

Every weapon has +/- points.
> Kinetic unpowered weapons like bullets, shells, etc or Kinetic powered weapons like rockets, missles, etc can be short to long range, can be guided in non line of sight mode. Sometimes the kinetic...

• Bhartiya Sainik
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Global Arms and Industry

 

[Ayan Barat]

You've mentioned Discovery Channel few times, so let me say something related...it's just yapping, don't take it otherwise.

Your message start with Discovery like tone "this is a picture of the US SHiELD laser" then out of nowhere you shift to more of an Ancient Aliens tone "agar ye bas wo chizein hain jo hum jaante hain, to sochiye wo sab kya hongi jo hum nahi jaante" and then you end everything with the tone of an Indian Defence YouTuber "following are some fan arts"

There should be some base on which a discussion should be done, you just can't bring up anything. Just like in academic research we've "double blind peer reviewed" and everything else is simply thrown in the bin. So here too should be some benchmark, right? Imagine we're discussing what's better Dashari or Alphonso and each time I reply with saying X fruit is better than mango.
• Please don't include fan arts or any information that's not officially from any part of the MIC (in brackets; Military Industrial Complex). Patents, reaserch papers, failed concepts, leaked slides all are more than enough; but please don't go the unofficial route. It's not for me, it's for you...you'd start losing the credibility of your message.
• Doing an educated guess of the near future is good, but don't speculate very far into the future no matter how sure you're. Let me make it bit more clear; today based on the trends I can confidently say that in the next five years, every single rifle would be more or less a Magpul Masada. But if I say that 10 years from now laser would be fired from rifles then I'd be making a fool of myself.
Again, I'm not burdening you with my thought process I'm just telling you what had already happened in past...from 1980s to early 90s everyone kind of speculated that by 2010 all the cartridges would be replaced by caseless ammunition. Fast forward 2024 and there's still no true caseless ammunition. So this is one big disadvantage of arguing agar abhi aisa hai to socho dus saal baad kaisa hoga...we don't know, we can't predict. We're probably operating at the apex of a VUCA (again in brackets, Volatile Uncertain Complex & Ambiguous) enviornment
• "If we were doing this in 2000s then imagine what we could do in 2025"
This might be bit flawed of an argument as it's more inclined towards correlation than causation. In 1900s Tesla was working on long range wireless transmission of electricity. In 1960s people were tinkering with sending satellites in orbits using guns, in fraction of the cost of a rocket. In 60s USAF was flying aircrafts with nuclear reactors that could remain airborne for months.
So by that logic in 2025 we should be at the pinnacle of these technologies. But are we?

Now coming to specific points of your message

See even after requesting, you're still not learning to use expansion of acronyms for the audience.

C'mon Sir, sometimes short forms are the "name" and you don't expand it, specially in these fields. Stop this obsession. When was the last time you heard someone say High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle instead of saying HMMWV?
Even in non defence field; when was the last time a friend of yours told you that they really like the new Bayerische Motoren Werke X7 instead of saying BMW X7?

Why don't you share this kind of pics, diagrams before questioning audience?

Because there are multiple problems in it
• what's the point of sharing the image of a big ahh trailer mounted laser system when we're discussing laser miniaturised enough to be carried in a pod? Yesterday only I told you about the importance of SWaP and you seem to completely miss it
• but even more important, what's exactly is the point of diverting the whole discussion to DRDO making a laser? What were we discussing? The efficacy of using lasers to shoot down missiles with USA being the sample (because they're leaps and bounds ahead of the contemporaries).......so what exactly is that point of bringing Durga and Kali here!? Arrreee kyun Bhai
• and what's the point of basing our discussion on DRDO's laser pod that's "planned" to achieve 5kW power when we're already discussing much more powerful US ones?

> It is a simple R&D lifecycle, every new thing requires pauses, testing, reviews, issues, re-engineering, etc. Since 1990s i'm aware through Discovery Channel about SDI (Strategic Defence Initiave) / STAR WARS, focussing on DEW (Directed energy Weapon) which started in 1983. It has been 40 years since. Many documentaries mentioned many kinds of initial challenges. Is it stopping the world or our DRDO?
And today's media is also used to mislead/discourage the global rivals.
In last few decades, just like START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty) there could be some diplomatic agreements b/w super powers not to start a new high tech arms race, but now it seems it is falling apart.
With global progress now a new race seems inevitable.

Again.
I'm sorry but I don't operate with these kind of "media is used to mislead", "diplomatic agreement between superpower", "what was happening 40 years ago". I prefer a bit of an factual route. Doesn't matter whether you've done B. Tech or M. Tech or done that today or two decades earlier...the basic parlance of science must be the same, right? A valid scientific theory is predictive, verifiable, and replicable.
DragonFire is 2020s laser technology and its SWaP are - the size of a trailer, for atleast 50kW laser. IronBeam is another laser from 2020s whose SWaP are - again a trailer and power of 100kW. All with the effective range of around 10km.
This is the level at which I operate, it's factual.

We don't live in a lossless world. There are losses in every/most physical, chemical, biological, mathematical aspects of nature. But that has not stopped technology advancements in any domain. Those losses are considered in R&D.

Again this jeevan to kathinaiyo ka hi naam hai, par kab is kathinai ne jeevan ko roka hai. Why you suddenly switch to this spiritual tone? We're not talking about loss in the mathematical of the nature. We're simply talking about attention. The reason for the need to repeater towers, or why radars can't work underwater, why high-intensity light is is used for optical fibre transmission...and why lasers would suffer unless fired in space!

We don't live in a lossless world. There are losses in every/most physical, chemical, biological, mathematical aspects of nature. But that has not stopped technology advancements in any domain. Those losses are considered in R&D. You'are talking about 1KW laser while USA has disclosed 300+KW laser for 6gen fighter jet. Then imagine what is the classified spec.
For the audience, here is a small collage of what i'm aware of superficially, some slides are 8yo from 2016 or before perhaps, you must be aware of it obviously when you mentioned SHIELD, LANCE, STRAFE:

God damn it Man; if an investment agent tells you that you'd get 10 rupees if you invest 100 then are you going to grab his collar? 100 rupay? Bas 100 rupay? Gareeb samjha hai kya be? Pura khandan kharid sakta hu?
Or will you calculate that if it's 10 in 100 then how much would it be for 10000?
It's called unit calculation my Guy and it's done to get a basic idea...if 1kW become 0.8kW then 300kW would be around 250kW.
Again this "Then imagine what is the classified spec" logic. "Agar dharti pe itni sundar kanyaein hain to swarg me..."
By the way, the collage you posted itself says that the current goal is to achieve more than 100kW in future...don't know where exactly you'd got this idea of already disclosed 300kW
The slide with 300kW written on it is older 2015 paper, in more recent 2022 one see how it's reduced to just >100kW.

You're going the right way but 1 aperture/pod may not be enough. So the obvious next step of thinking in design would be to have multiple apertures.

SWaP SWaP SWaP SWaP SWaP...why you keep flushing it down the toilet?
We're already struggling with supplying enough power to a single laser and now you're bringing in multiple?
What are you going to use to power this set-up? Hextech? (In case you ask quoting Hextech with three emojis...it's a video game reference)

This is the longest someone has ever made me yap
Congratulations on that

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

You've mentioned Discovery Channel few times, so let me say something related...it's just yapping, don't take it otherwise.

Your message start with Discovery like tone "this is a picture of the US SHiELD laser" then out of nowhere you shift to more of an Ancient Aliens tone "agar ye bas wo chizein hain jo hum jaante hain, to sochiye wo sab kya hongi jo hum nahi jaante" and then you end everything with the tone of an Indian Defence YouTuber "following are some fan arts"

There should be some base on which a discussion should be done, you just can't bring up anything. Just like in academic research we've "double blind peer reviewed" and everything else is simply thrown in the bin. So here too should be some benchmark, right? Imagine we're discussing what's better Dashari or Alphonso and each time I reply with saying X fruit is better than mango.
• Please don't include fan arts or any information that's not officially from any part of the MIC (in brackets; Military Industrial Complex). Patents, reaserch papers, failed concepts, leaked slides all are more than enough; but please don't go the unofficial route. It's not for me, it's for you...you'd start losing the credibility of your message.
• Doing an educated guess of the near future is good, but don't speculate very far into the future no matter how sure you're. Let me make it bit more clear; today based on the trends I can confidently say that in the next five years, every single rifle would be more or less a Magpul Masada. But if I say that 10 years from now laser would be fired from rifles then I'd be making a fool of myself.
Again, I'm not burdening you with my thought process I'm just telling you what had already happened in past...from 1980s to early 90s everyone kind of speculated that by 2010 all the cartridges would be replaced by caseless ammunition. Fast forward 2024 and there's still no true caseless ammunition. So this is one big disadvantage of arguing agar abhi aisa hai to socho dus saal baad kaisa hoga...we don't know, we can't predict. We're probably operating at the apex of a VUCA (again in brackets, Volatile Uncertain Complex & Ambiguous) enviornment
• "If we were doing this in 2000s then imagine what we could do in 2025"
This might be bit flawed of an argument as it's more inclined towards correlation than causation. In 1900s Tesla was working on long range wireless transmission of electricity. In 1960s people were tinkering with sending satellites in orbits using guns, in fraction of the cost of a rocket. In 60s USAF was flying aircrafts with nuclear reactors that could remain airborne for months.
So by that logic in 2025 we should be at the pinnacle of these technologies. But are we?

Now coming to specific points of your message

C'mon Sir, sometimes short forms are the "name" and you don't expand it, specially in these fields. Stop this obsession. When was the last time you heard someone say High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle instead of saying HMMWV?
Even in non defence field; when was the last time a friend of yours told you that they really like the new Bayerische Motoren Werke X7 instead of saying BMW X7?

Because there are multiple problems in it
• what's the point of sharing the image of a big ahh trailer mounted laser system when we're discussing laser miniaturised enough to be carried in a pod? Yesterday only I told you about the importance of SWaP and you seem to completely miss it
• but even more important, what's exactly is the point of diverting the whole discussion to DRDO making a laser? What were we discussing? The efficacy of using lasers to shoot down missiles with USA being the sample (because they're leaps and bounds ahead of the contemporaries).......so what exactly is that point of bringing Durga and Kali here!? Arrreee kyun Bhai
• and what's the point of basing our discussion on DRDO's laser pod that's "planned" to achieve 5kW power when we're already discussing much more powerful US ones?

Again.
I'm sorry but I don't operate with these kind of "media is used to mislead", "diplomatic agreement between superpower", "what was happening 40 years ago". I prefer a bit of an factual route. Doesn't matter whether you've done B. Tech or M. Tech or done that today or two decades earlier...the basic parlance of science must be the same, right? A valid scientific theory is predictive, verifiable, and replicable.
DragonFire is 2020s laser technology and its SWaP are - the size of a trailer, for atleast 50kW laser. IronBeam is another laser from 2020s whose SWaP are - again a trailer and power of 100kW. All with the effective range of around 10km.
This is the level at which I operate, it's factual.

Again this jeevan to kathinaiyo ka hi naam hai, par kab is kathinai ne jeevan ko roka hai. Why you suddenly switch to this spiritual tone? We're not talking about loss in the mathematical of the nature. We're simply talking about attention. The reason for the need to repeater towers, or why radars can't work underwater, why high-intensity light is is used for optical fibre transmission...and why lasers would suffer unless fired in space!

God damn it Man; if an investment agent tells you that you'd get 10 rupees if you invest 100 then are you going to grab his collar? 100 rupay? Bas 100 rupay? Gareeb samjha hai kya be? Pura khandan kharid sakta hu?
Or will you calculate that if it's 10 in 100 then how much would it be for 10000?
It's called unit calculation my Guy and it's done to get a basic idea...if 1kW become 0.8kW then 300kW would be around 250kW.
Again this "Then imagine what is the classified spec" logic. "Agar dharti pe itni sundar kanyaein hain to swarg me..."
By the way, the collage you posted itself says that the current goal is to achieve more than 100kW in future...don't know where exactly you'd got this idea of already disclosed 300kW
The slide with 300kW written on it is older 2015 paper, in more recent 2022 one see how it's reduced to just >100kW.

SWaP SWaP SWaP SWaP SWaP...why you keep flushing it down the toilet?
We're already struggling with supplying enough power to a single laser and now you're bringing in multiple?
What are you going to use to power this set-up? Hextech? (In case you ask quoting Hextech with three emojis...it's a video game reference)

This is the longest someone has ever made me yap
Congratulations on that

Don't spam this thread when there is DEW thread. I'll reply on topic there.
But here perhaps you can give brief intro about yourself for mutual understanding & what are your expectations from other enthusiast members.
We are not your clones. Don't try to control others, just present yourself politely with data you have. Some people will definitely like it, some would feal jealous, don't keep any expectations or you'll feel bad.
And people like me are into deep into our job related industry, family men, what are you trying to teach us for time pass when we have not violated any rule? Don't do this, that?