CI/CT Operations

[VictorDelta4]

View attachment 15324

Need an M60 equivalent in Rudra helicopter.

Why when it already has a chin mounted gun? Dhruv is far more suitable for a door gunner. The CG mk IV variants also have them.

 

[Bleh]

Why when it already has a chin mounted gun? Dhruv is far more suitable for a door gunner. The CG mk IV variants also have them.

View attachment 15324

Need an M60 equivalent in Rudra helicopter.

I'd say a side-mounted grenade launcher would be better on Rudra only, besides the chin cannon & rockets. Would be lovely to have in CO-IN op. Will make it more complete. Prachand can work with ATGMs & loitering munitions.

That'll roughly cover everything.

 

[Suryavanshi]

I'd say a side-mounted grenade launcher would be better on Rudra only, besides the chin cannon & rockets. Would be lovely to have in CO-IN op. Will make it more complete. Prachand can work with ATGMs & loitering munitions.

That'll roughly cover everything.

Has any country tried mounting automatic grenade launcher on heli?

 

[VictorDelta4]

Has any country tried mounting automatic grenade launcher on heli?

AH-1 Cobras had M75 and M129 40mm's mounted on them during Vietnam war.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Lvd3ucUBU

 

[Ayan Barat]

Has any country tried mounting automatic grenade launcher on heli?

Yup...once it was the only heavy automatic weapon available in a helicopter. The earlier helicopter didn't had things like high-power turret, stabilization, head tracking, heck they weren't even strong enough to handle the recoil of an auto-cannon. So 7.62x51mm MG, 7.62x51mm Gatling, M2 Browning and automatic grenade launcher were the only weapon available other than 70mm unguided rockets.

Here's one combined minigun and grenade launcher turret from AH-1; 1960s

 

[Bleh]

Has any country tried mounting automatic grenade launcher on heli?

Mostly chin or side-mounted setups that need nose pointing...


I'm taking about a good old door-gunner, but with grenade launcher instead of the wasteful minigun on a LUH or ALH platforms (plus rudra already got 20mm cannon) to help in COIN.

 

[Ayan Barat]

No one took my idea of a hepter based airborne unit seriously but everyone seems interested in a heli-gunship.

Okay, how about ACH-47A then!?

2x 70mm rocket pod; 19 rd each
1x 40mm AGL; 500 rd
2x 20mm auto-cannon; 800 rd each
5x M2 Browning; 1000 rd each

 

[Suryavanshi]

Mostly chin or side-mounted setups that need nose pointing...
View attachment 15357

I'm taking about a good old door-gunner, but with grenade launcher instead of the wasteful minigun on a LUH or ALH platforms (plus rudra already got 20mm cannon) to help in COIN.
View attachment 15358

Good to know we think alike.
I had the same idea but my intention was for it to be user in Naxal areas.

 

[Bleh]

Good to know we think alike.
I had the same idea but my intention was for it to be user in Naxal areas.

And we need this more than the longbow radar...

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/hxJoxxRPAUA?si=YiPY7vxQutWd2HU0

 

[Anants]

No one took my idea of a hepter based airborne unit seriously but everyone seems interested in a heli-gunship.

Okay, how about ACH-47A then!?
View attachment 15361
2x 70mm rocket pod; 19 rd each
1x 40mm AGL; 500 rd
2x 20mm auto-cannon; 800 rd each
5x M2 Browning; 1000 rd each

I am not sure why people are interested in Hollywoodesque ideas of big armed guns carrier. We used hepters in naxal, iirc one hepter mi17 iirc was also hit and had to land but not crashed.

Some breakthrough ideas are now needed. Recce swarm cum attack drones bots scanning through large area combined with robot dogs or robo track cars securing areas from land mines. They are followed by columns of forces on foot or vehicles.

 

[ezsasa]

Good to know we think alike.
I had the same idea but my intention was for it to be user in Naxal areas.

Video shows Naxals training to gun down Air Force helicopters (2015)​

View: https://youtu.be/yyXNuRntnBg

 

[Ayan Barat]

I am not sure why people are interested in Hollywoodesque ideas of big armed guns carrier. We used hepters in nacal, iirc one hepter mi17 iirc was also hit and had to land but not crashed.

Some breakthrough ideas are now needed. Recce swarm cum attack drones bots scanning through large area combined with robot dogs or robo track cars securing areas from land mines. They are followed by columns of forces on foot or vehicles.

Swarm, robot dog, car, drones...arrrrrreeee; just start using these na

Can be assembly in less than $150 and given the targets (CI/CT) there won't be any anti-drone system in next 1-2 decades.

Trust me, this alone would solve more than half of the problems

 

[Anants]

Swarm, robot dog, car, drones...arrrrrreeee; just start using these na
View attachment 15366
Can be assembly in less than $150 and given the targets (CI/CT) there won't be any anti-drone system in next 1-2 decades.

Trust me, this alone would solve more than half of the problems

the idea I posted is needed for hunting and area domination. This is what we have been doing in Naxal ops.

The solution you posted I fear shall be soon getting employed by other tangos given how kuki recently used. In NE I bet China shall be itching to give them to tangos pretty soon, moment we start tying more closely with US.

Ayan how about we create a thread or sandbox of wild ideas for defence or other utilities. Can be private or public mod call but all guys brainstorm and say think on drone defence for forces. What could be done. Thinking on ways of drone detection and thwarting. How fpv drones can be thwarted etc.

Currently all Land drones like Kukur you psoted shall be limited due to battery. China's bidepal robot recently did 20 km marathon in 1 and half hour. Tells you about max battle range in ideal conditions.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Video shows Naxals training to gun down Air Force helicopters (2015)​

View: https://youtu.be/yyXNuRntnBg

Viet cong had better anti air method and equipment but that did not help much.

The purpose of aerial support is to disperse the tangos on ground.

Grenades have wide AOE so heli just need to make runs over the area while shooting.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Video shows Naxals training to gun down Air Force helicopters (2015)​

View: https://youtu.be/yyXNuRntnBg

@ezsasa not saying this in a agreesive tone, but did you really think this video was a good argument against gunships?


Helis can be fitted with protection and anything less than machine guns won't really do much against gunships.
I

 

[ezsasa]

Viet cong had better anti air method and equipment but that did not help much.

The purpose of aerial support is to disperse the tangos on ground.

Grenades have wide AOE so heli just need to make runs over the area while shooting.

using such tactics once in a while in some special ops with an element of surprise is one thing, if they are to be regularly employed, there needs to be an entire heli based doctrine and support infra.

as far as hepter losses in vietnam go.

Overall, the U.S. military used nearly 12,000 helicopters in Vietnam, of which more than 5,000 were destroyed. To be a helicopter pilot or crew member was among the most dangerous jobs in the war.

Helicopters - Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund

www.vvmf.org

 

[Suryavanshi]

using such tactics once in a while in some special ops with an element of surprise is one thing, if they are to be regularly employed, there needs to be an entire heli based doctrine and support infra.

as far as hepter losses in vietnam go.

Helicopters - Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund

www.vvmf.org

The 5000 numbers just aren't the ones being shot down by vietcongs but also includes the ones that crashed.
Also it does not account for how many were shot down during troop transport and how many while doing gunning runs.

The most damaging weapons to the helicopter were Dshk, SA7. I don't think Naxal have anything similar.

 

[ezsasa]

@ezsasa not saying this in a agreesive tone, but did you really think this video was a good argument against gunships?


Helis can be fitted with protection and anything less than machine guns won't really do much against gunships.
I

that post was supposed to guide the topic towards , measures , counter measures and counter counter measures. just expanding the scenario.

for example :

- how about door gunners?
- yes and, what if tango deploy small arms against hepters?
- yes and, we uparmour the hepters.
- yes and, what if stray round hits the rotors?
- yes and, send hepters in groups and have heavy lift hepter on standby for recovery.

- yes and, solution,
- yes and, scenario,
- yes and, solution,
- yes and, scenario,

etc.. etc.

if folks have time, scenario building needs not stop at one or two levels, it can go right upto cost and manufacturing capacity.

 

[Suryavanshi]

@ezsasa

How often did helicopters get shot down in Vietnam?

Answer (1 of 3): There were many reasons for losing/damaging a helicopter in Vietnam. Weather, mechanical failure, accidents, terrain, and “pilot error” accounted for about half of the helicopters lost. Your chances of getting shot down depended on the mission you flew. Scout Pilots had the great...

www.quora.com

Check out the comments beside each quora posts.
Vietnam era boomera give a bit of insight into Vietnam War helicopter operation.

I belive back in the day US did not keep as good of a record as today so no proper numbers and data are available, we just have to go by the word of mouth.

>Most helicopter were downed during entry and exit of troop insertion.

>most helicopter were recovered even after being shot Down

1975–0615, Aviation, Helicopters in Vietnam.

11,827 Helicopters Sent.

5,086 Helicopters Destroyed.

40,000 Helicopter Pilots Sent.

2,202 Helicopter Pilots KIA.

2,704 Non-Pilots KIA in Helicopters



>2704 is the exact number of non pilot casualties but out of this as well most could be from crashes.

In general quora comments implied that being door gunner was safer than most other round roles.



On the other hand this sings a different tone.

The Doors Were Open

This Helicopter Day we want to pay tribute to those who kept the rotorcraft turning and burning, mainly the door gunners, ordinance men/women, and flight surgeons/air medics. From the very beginning of the Vietnam War, it was concluded that this would be a much different war. Enter the UH-1...

www.av8rblackbox.com

 

[Bleh]

Video shows Naxals training to gun down Air Force helicopters (2015)​

View: https://youtu.be/yyXNuRntnBg

Ambushing a passing transport heli & getting grenades lobbed are your position in a CASO are hardly same level of involvement.

Swarm, robot dog, car, drones...arrrrrreeee; just start using these na
View attachment 15366
Can be assembly in less than $150 and given the targets (CI/CT) there won't be any anti-drone system in next 1-2 decades.

Trust me, this alone would solve more than half of the problems.

This can actually replace helis in COIN, I'll admit. Put in since explosive & they can be the ultimate mortar!