CI/CT Operations

[jaijaganath]

Everyone in this forum is angry with the prevailing situation in Jammu & Kashmir in general and India as a whole. Islamists are spreading their wings everywhere. People are blaming Modi govt and drawing similarly between Modi 3.0 and UPA 2.0 which is not enirely untrue. I am seeing a decrease in bhashan baazi of the ruling party members and the ministers as well. All jingoism and bravado got reduced. The overconfidence of the Army top brass has also been exposed too.
But do we really want the govt to handle this type of situation as they used to do during the previous tenure? For people like us in this forum the answer is YES. We have nationalistic views and we want a disprroportionate response against any act of terrorism.
But for the majority of the population in India, they did not like the approach of the govt hence they clipped the wings of Modi with a punctured mandate. The action of the govt is directly proportional to the number of seats in both the houses. We have to get used to it.
Modi govt missed many opportunities to bring in reforms and stricter laws when they were in absolute majority. BJP is suffering from internal termoils and rivalry these days and it looks like the game is over for BJP in 2029. I have little hope that Modi will be able to turn the table this time. Modi failed to pass a message in Manipur and Waste Bengal during his previous tenure and they are in no position to correct it now. People should embrace for big time law and order situation in India in coming days. Time to change the jumla to "Sab ka saath sab ka vinaash."

Kuch bhi ho koi farak nahi padta
Bas wapas se forum bandh nahi hona chahiye
And moreover govt isn't interested in any reforms or amendments as their days are numbered so better stay quiet and peacefully retire from power

 

[lexCommando]

@lexCommando @mist_consecutive @Airborne22 what's the atmosphere in Jammu especially after this reveal? Any chance we might use this for our own benifit for once in our lifetime? This is straight proof and an act of war

I don't think anything will happen... people are angry like usual.. more than army, they are angry with BJP which promised to make "kashmir" Naya kashmir banate banate purana jammu barbad kr diya.. still people are striking againest pakistan.. jammu has always been supportive of india and army.. it's just few fucking traitor OGWs. This condition has also arisen because of lack of understanding between army and gujjar bakkarwals lately unlike 90s and 2000s when both used to trust each other with blind eyes and their was coordination and loyalty.. but now things aren't same.. I'm not saying they can't be fixed but politicians have done some mistakes which will hold up army for quite some time to rebuild the bond.. now it's upto army what they'll do from now on.. whether they'll stay on defensive and get slaughtered every month while the OGW network keeps getting bigger and bigger till they do a fidayeen like attack on army camp straight into srinagar like pulwama or army and political leadership will finally spine up and act aggressive like 2000s. They have done this before they can do it again. In bhen**** jihadio ko kutto ki tara pahado mein dhundh dhundh ke mara Hai.. bring back those veteran soldiers who were part of search and destroy teams in jammu region. They know most of routes/ terrain.. I admit the difficulty is higher today especially with Chinese satellite phones. But solution army ko hi dhundhna Hai. Backfoot pe rehke we'll just keep getting killed every month

 

[mist_consecutive]

@lexCommando @mist_consecutive @Airborne22 what's the atmosphere in Jammu especially after this reveal? Any chance we might use this for our own benifit for once in our lifetime? This is straight proof and an act of war

Nope. We will hide it and pretend everything is alright.

Govt considers phased withdrawal of Army from Kashmir hinterland

According to officials, the Army maintains a strength of around 1.3 lakh personnel in the entire Jammu and Kashmir of which around 80,000 are deployed on the border.

www.google.com

More like 10% this not counting the CRPF.

We will need better use of technology to mitigate any number gap.

We really need tech to put personnel out of harms way like Israeli do.
Bring out drones, sensors, camera, armor technology. Anything that can save a life.

Can't read the article, behind paywall.

~ 2 lakhs non recruitment amounts to 4% of the total strength of the IA ?! What am I or we're missing here ? How exactly have you determined vacancies haven't been filled up in those very formations you've listed ? Any citations or references.

?? Where did you get the 2 Lakh amount ? If lets say per year 60,000 retire (assume), and 40-45,000 Agniveers join, the delta is ~20,000 for 3 years which is 60,000, that is 4% of total strength of IA.

And what's the primary purpose of those formations you've named ? Is it to fight wars or to fight insurgencies , in which case we ought to be moving them either on the LAC in the first case or to fight insurgencies in J&K ? Why aren't we ?

Primary purpose of few of these formations is to fight Pakistan on western border (Punjab/Rajasthan/Gujarat), and few of these are for reinforcement wherever required.

For example, Bison division is based from central India (Hyderabad), what's its job exactly ?

And we are still calling this "insurgency" ? Or is this a carefully-planned build-up of future offensive by Pakistan & China by pushing their SF ?

Also I should mention I did not touch any formation dedicated to LAC.

 

[lexCommando]

Now why do I think they are ex SSG coz their is no shortage to good 556 rifles smuggled from Afghanistan in pak they have enough m4 and m16s , even then they choose a rare bullpup Aug (why )
Only someone who specifically likes it and has had experience using it will pick a bullpup as his choice..... who else except ssg is experiencd in using Aug as terrorists have never used bullpups and surely would never prefer it over standard pattern rifles .

I smell a kargil 2.0 just worse with fpv drones and shit

Paff has shown aug in their propaganda video

 

[mist_consecutive]

People really forget how big is Indian Army. We remember (or for Gen Z read) Kargil war as a decisive mountain-warfare of large scale between India & Pakistan.

Any idea how many troops/divisions were dedicated to this conflict ? Guesses ?

Spoiler: Answer

Only 1. Yep, Only 1 Division out of 40+ Divisions, and probably some support elements making it 1.5 at max.

So sit down. We might be at a disadvantage technologically but not at all on manpower, at least as of now.

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

Thats when it is very clear that they are never going to get any vote from M community. They could go on full offensive as they are not going to get any support from them in elections!

Itna guda hota toh pehle hi nahi karte kuch bi karenge ab 2028 mein 40 seat layange

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

Now why do I think they are ex SSG coz their is no shortage to good 556 rifles smuggled from Afghanistan in pak they have enough m4 and m16s , even then they choose a rare bullpup Aug (why )
Only someone who specifically likes it and has had experience using it will pick a bullpup as his choice..... who else except ssg is experiencd in using Aug as terrorists have never used bullpups and surely would never prefer it over standard pattern rifles .

I smell a kargil 2.0 just worse with fpv drones and shit

This one makes sense maybe they are stacking terrorist to do something big hopefully our intel get a hang of it before something happen

 

[KumaoniReborn]

People really forget how big is Indian Army. We remember (or for Gen Z read) Kargil war as a decisive mountain-warfare of large scale between India & Pakistan.

Any idea how many troops/divisions were dedicated to this conflict ? Guesses ?

Spoiler: Answer

Only 1. Yep, Only 1 Division out of 40+ Divisions, and probably some support elements making it 1.5 at max.

So sit down. We might be at a disadvantage technologically but not at all on manpower, at least as of now.

About kargil. People forget that the actual combat took place between platoons and sections (with other company platoons being used for backup and casualty evac, for eg in a D company if No 10 platoon would attack than no 11 and 12 would be used as backup or for causality evac).

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

About kargil. People forget that the actual combat took place between platoons and sections (with other company platoons being used for backup and casualty evac, for eg in a D company if No 10 platoon would attack than no 11 and 12 would be used as backup or for causality evac).

Yup kargil was a confined war which could escalate if porkies would send the main army once objectives are completed on blocking hiway for considerable time and cutting of a big portion
Things went all wrong for them sonce we spotted them earlier (thanks to a local shepherd)

 

[lexCommando]

Paff has shown aug in their propaganda videoView attachment 3534

Once upon a time, this group called Muj ghaswat ul hindh (MGUH), [not to be confused with ansar ghazwat ul hindh] also showed AUG in their propaganda video.. group was nipped in the bud at very early stages by JKP by encountering initial members very fast

 

[KumaoniReborn]

Yup kargil was a confined war which could escalate if porkies would send the main army once objectives are completed on blocking hiway for considerable time and cutting of a big portion
Things went all wrong for them sonce we spotted them earlier (thanks to a local shepherd)

Yup. Reason btw that we didn’t use heavy arty early on was due to belief they were jihadis. It was only till may in which it was confirmed that pak army was there (when they would bombard from across the LoC. Keep in mind INTEL reports suggested that the infuriations were JIHADISTS not the Pakistan army.

 

[MasterChief]

I know they were talking about it but I seriously hope the GOI has the foresight to not implement such brilliant ideas. We'll start racking up Paki level casualty numbers if that ever happens. CRPF have no chance in hell with their ancient equipment if rr and to a lesser extent even Para SF are getting ambushed.

Ayntee nashanaaalll look at F-INSAS
View attachment 3460

He looks so immobile.. Jehadis would have crossed the loc from doda, by the time the soldier manages to open his zip to pee..

 

[crazywithmath]

Besides instead of the yearly intake of ~ 70,000 odd jawans , thru Agniveer we're now taking in 45,000 only. Basically this is a self inflicted wound. Leaderji & Leaderji alone has essentially created this problem .

I am aware of the 2 year pause during the covid years but recruitment of regular cadre has since resumed, no?

And Modi is a fiscal conservative - something we have discussed time and time again on the economy threads.

 

[Azaad]

Nope. We will hide it and pretend everything is alright.

Can't read the article, behind paywall.

?? Where did you get the 2 Lakh amount ? If lets say per year 60,000 retire (assume), and 40-45,000 Agniveers join, the delta is ~20,000 for 3 years which is 60,000, that is 4% of total strength of IA.

Starred question in RS with reply by then MoS for Defence Ajay Bhatt confirming a shortage of ~ 1,08,000 jawans & ~ 7,000 Officers. This is as on 2022. Every year there are around 60-65,000 personnel retiring which is naturally replenished till the COVID years. Please refer to the attached PDF document.

Between 2020-23 consequently we saw ~ 2,00,000 personnel retire with practically zero recruitments in the ranks of jawans.

Agniveer program is due to take in only 50% of the 45,000 recruited on a permanent basis. That's 22,500 per year against a retirement of ~65,000 personnel till early 2030s when the last of the jawans recruited under the earlier system will have retired & we'd have Agniveer recruits all the way with 4 years of experience primed to take on the PLA where for mountain warfare according to our serving & former personnel of different ranks it takes 4 years to get accustomed to mountain warfare.

That's about the only advantage we have over the PLA & we're in the process of throwing it away. Which in a way is exactly a replica of what's happening in Ukraine where we've two sets of amateur armies slugging it out on a great war of attrition.

Primary purpose of few of these formations is to fight Pakistan on western border (Punjab/Rajasthan/Gujarat), and few of these are for reinforcement wherever required.

Those reinforcements are all out of the window now given the shortfall.

For example, Bison division is based from central India (Hyderabad), what's its job exactly ?

My response would be the same as above.

And we are still calling this "insurgency" ? Or is this a carefully-planned build-up of future offensive by Pakistan & China by pushing their SF ?

Well we aren't doing anything either way. Our only strength was our numbers not technology or anything "fancy" but sheer raw numbers. Now we're in the process of eliminating the only advantage we had.

Also I should mention I did not touch any formation dedicated to LAC.

You didn't mention it coz you can't. Can we afford to shift any formation out of the LAC ?

 

[MasterChief]

I bet mudi doesn't even know such a thing happened.
He has surrounded himself with yesmen who are lying to him ....

He knows .. he knows every little thing.. look how quickly he used to latch on to every little mistake of opposition during elections.. and used to be aware of trends..

 

[SKC]

So, few handles have now shared the video of beheading of our brave soldiers.

Not sure if that is authentic video or not but it is gruesome.

Ab to jaag jao babuo and ministero!

 

[Ultraman]

People really forget how big is Indian Army. We remember (or for Gen Z read) Kargil war as a decisive mountain-warfare of large scale between India & Pakistan.

Any idea how many troops/divisions were dedicated to this conflict ? Guesses ?

Spoiler: Answer

Only 1. Yep, Only 1 Division out of 40+ Divisions, and probably some support elements making it 1.5 at max.

So sit down. We might be at a disadvantage technologically but not at all on manpower, at least as of now.

bro seriously , in kargil how many pakistani infiltrators were there ? , 3000 , 5000 ? almost 2 division 30,000 according to wikipedia to take them on . we needed 6x to take back those peaks .

1 lakh PLA are now just at LAC . how many will be needed to counter or take back any mountain peak or ridges these PLA take

peace time - we need almost 80k - 1 lakh just to man loc , never mind if pakistan loses its mind and starts a 2nd front . that will be another 5-7 lakhs troops fighting us not 3000 or 4000.

 

[Azaad]

I am aware of the 2 year pause during the covid years but recruitment of regular cadre has since resumed, no?

It was a 3 year pause. Recruitment of officers continued as usual. With Agniveer implemented last year onwards @45,000 personnel the shortfall assuming 65,000 retire every year will be down to 20,000.

This will continue till 2027 when ~25,000 of the batch of the first Agniveers will be taken in for full time recruitment which means retirement at 35 & the 2027 batch itself will take in 45,000 Agniveers.

What this means is from 2023-27 we'd have a shortfall of 4 x 20,000 per year = 80,000 + ~ 2,00,000 jawans who retired between 2020-23 who were never replaced. That makes the total shortfall will stand at ~ 2,80,000 in 2027 , which is around a fourth of the strength of the IA .

And Modi is a fiscal conservative - something we have discussed time and time again on the economy threads.

McNamara ran the DoD like a corporation during the Vietnam war only to regret it later. What you call fiscal conservativism is best left for other departments not defence.

Here it's plain baniagiri . Add regular babugiri to it & you get gxxdugiri which is the present state of affairs with respect to the IA.

Plus Doval is there to ensure compliance courtesy his Garhwali brethren in arms comprising of the late BiRa earlier & AniCha at present. And right there you've the whole unholy mix.

 

[Screambowl]

Idk what happened to bjp man it’s not the same it has became one big arrogant echo chamber.

Yes, they have become arrogant, specially Gadkari, JP Nadda , Amit Shah and Rajnath Singh. All of them are businessmen. Yogi Adityanath is their main fear, they don't want him and this is the reason due to internal rivalry they have also become ineffective when it comes to security of the nation.

 

[Baseplate]

bro seriously , in kargil how many pakistani infiltrators were there ? , 3000 , 5000 ? almost 2 division 30,000 according to wikipedia to take them on . we needed 6x to take back those peaks .

1 lakh PLA are now just at LAC . how many will be need to counter or take back any mountain peak or ridges thse PLA take

peace time - we need almost 80k - 1 lakh just to man loc , never mind if pakistan loses its mind and starts a 2nd front . that will be another 5-6 lakhs troops fighting us not 3000 or 4000.

Having a extra large standing army when you can't even properly equip the frontline units properly is not a good idea , that's what Russia did and ended up loosing more men and equipments .
In kargil we decided to use human wave tactics when some proper coordinated strikes by air force would have done better than waves but our aircrafts underperformed except mirages .

Best approach for now to fill in the holes and setup a strong and well equipped and trained army with good coordination and a proper chain of command and better coordination between the different services .

A strong frontline will be able to stop and pushback an invading force , giving enough time for reserves and conscripts to get trained and equipped . While a big but weak frontline will be easily broken through resulting in encirclements .