CI/CT Operations

mist_consecutive said:
People really forget how big is Indian Army. We remember (or for Gen Z read) Kargil war as a decisive mountain-warfare of large scale between India & Pakistan.

Any idea how many troops/divisions were dedicated to this conflict ? Guesses ?

Only 1. Yep, Only 1 Division out of 40+ Divisions, and probably some support elements making it 1.5 at max.

So sit down. We might be at a disadvantage technologically but not at all on manpower, at least as of now.
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bro seriously , in kargil how many pakistani infiltrators were there ? , 3000 , 5000 ? almost 2 division 30,000 according to wikipedia to take them on . we needed 6x to take back those peaks .

1 lakh PLA are now just at LAC . how many will be needed to counter or take back any mountain peak or ridges these PLA take

peace time - we need almost 80k - 1 lakh just to man loc , never mind if pakistan loses its mind and starts a 2nd front . that will be another 5-7 lakhs troops fighting us not 3000 or 4000.
 
crazywithmath said:
I am aware of the 2 year pause during the covid years but recruitment of regular cadre has since resumed, no?
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It was a 3 year pause. Recruitment of officers continued as usual. With Agniveer implemented last year onwards @45,000 personnel the shortfall assuming 65,000 retire every year will be down to 20,000.

This will continue till 2027 when ~25,000 of the batch of the first Agniveers will be taken in for full time recruitment which means retirement at 35 & the 2027 batch itself will take in 45,000 Agniveers.

What this means is from 2023-27 we'd have a shortfall of 4 x 20,000 per year = 80,000 + ~ 2,00,000 jawans who retired between 2020-23 who were never replaced. That makes the total shortfall will stand at ~ 2,80,000 in 2027 , which is around a fourth of the strength of the IA .

crazywithmath said:
And Modi is a fiscal conservative - something we have discussed time and time again on the economy threads.
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McNamara ran the DoD like a corporation during the Vietnam war only to regret it later. What you call fiscal conservativism is best left for other departments not defence.

Here it's plain baniagiri . Add regular babugiri to it & you get gxxdugiri which is the present state of affairs with respect to the IA.

Plus Doval is there to ensure compliance courtesy his Garhwali brethren in arms comprising of the late BiRa earlier & AniCha at present. And right there you've the whole unholy mix.
 
Mr.Evil said:
Idk what happened to bjp man it’s not the same it has became one big arrogant echo chamber.
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Yes, they have become arrogant, specially Gadkari, JP Nadda , Amit Shah and Rajnath Singh. All of them are businessmen. Yogi Adityanath is their main fear, they don't want him and this is the reason due to internal rivalry they have also become ineffective when it comes to security of the nation.
 
Ultraman said:
bro seriously , in kargil how many pakistani infiltrators were there ? , 3000 , 5000 ? almost 2 division 30,000 according to wikipedia to take them on . we needed 6x to take back those peaks .

1 lakh PLA are now just at LAC . how many will be need to counter or take back any mountain peak or ridges thse PLA take

peace time - we need almost 80k - 1 lakh just to man loc , never mind if pakistan loses its mind and starts a 2nd front . that will be another 5-6 lakhs troops fighting us not 3000 or 4000.
Click to expand...
Having a extra large standing army when you can't even properly equip the frontline units properly is not a good idea , that's what Russia did and ended up loosing more men and equipments .
In kargil we decided to use human wave tactics when some proper coordinated strikes by air force would have done better than waves but our aircrafts underperformed except mirages .

Best approach for now to fill in the holes and setup a strong and well equipped and trained army with good coordination and a proper chain of command and better coordination between the different services .

A strong frontline will be able to stop and pushback an invading force , giving enough time for reserves and conscripts to get trained and equipped . While a big but weak frontline will be easily broken through resulting in encirclements .
 
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Ultraman said:
bro seriously , in kargil how many pakistani infiltrators were there ? , 3000 , 5000 ? almost 2 division 30,000 according to wikipedia to take them on . we needed 6x to take back those peaks .

1 lakh PLA are now just at LAC . how many will be needed to counter or take back any mountain peak or ridges these PLA take

peace time - we need almost 80k - 1 lakh just to man loc , never mind if pakistan loses its mind and starts a 2nd front . that will be another 5-7 lakhs troops fighting us not 3000 or 4000.
Click to expand...

in case there is a need for kargil type operations again, it is not necessary that IA will use the same tactic again. there is a sequence of events as to how 10x ( not 6x) was arrived at.

between may 1st week when shepherds reported about paki infiltrators and jun 2nd week when arty being used in direct fire mode, 10x sanction was something that was decided around 1st week of june, prior to that other ratios were tried starting with small probing patrol parties, to 3x ratio. 10x ratio was decided after it became clear that these were not small number of infiltrators, rather these were dug in paki regulars. IA was adapting as the picture became clearer week by week.

next time, if similar situation arises, IA may use arty first instead of trying to send in infantry first for recapture, the 10x ratio may or may not be required next time. this is where M777s come into picture.
 
Baseplate said:
Having a extra large standing army when you can't even properly equip the frontline units properly is not a bad idea , that's what Russia did and ended up loosing more men and equipments .
In kargil we decided to use human wave tactics when some proper coordinated strikes by air force would have done better than waves but our aircrafts underperformed except mirages .

Best approach for now to fill in the holes and setup a strong and well equipped and trained army with good coordination and a proper chain of command and better coordination between the different services .

A strong frontline will be able to stop and pushback an invading force , giving enough time for reserves and conscripts to get trained and equipped . While a big but weak frontline will be easily broken through resulting in encirclements .
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There's also a running insurgency in J&K this very IA is supposed to cater to. You can delink RR from the regular body of the IA & re purpose it into a CAPF on the lines of the AR with the IA exercising command over it & the budget coming from MHA.

Or we could transfer all responsibilities to CAPFs like the CRPF wholesale & have the IA exit CI operations in J&K which is what seems to be the gameplan now which in turn is going to see a bloodbath like what we saw in the mid 2000s to 2015 in the jungles of Cg when the CAPFs went up against the Maoists .

Alternatively we can increase the defence outlay especially for the IA. If we can have an infrastructure outlay of 10 lakh crore in FY 23-24 , surely we can increase the capital outlay of our defence establishment by 1 lakh crore to take care of CAPEX focusing on the IA.
 
ezsasa said:
in case there is a need for kargil type operations again, it is not necessary that IA will use the same tactic again. there is a sequence of events as to how 10x ( not 6x) was arrived at.

between may 1st week when shepherds reported about paki infiltrators and jun 2nd week when arty being used in direct fire mode, 10x sanction was something that was decided around 1st week of june, prior to that other ratios were tried starting with small probing patrol parties, to 3x ratio. 10x ratio was decided after it became clear that these were not small number of infiltrators, rather these were dug in paki regulars. IA was adapting as the picture became clearer week by week.

next time, if similar situation arises, IA may use arty first instead of trying to send in infantry first for recapture, the 10x ratio may or may not be required next time. this is where M777s come into picture.
Click to expand...
Kargil was an aberration but conventional military thinking holds when you're launching an assault on a fortified mountaineous position the ratio must be 6:1. If it's a counter assault then it goes up to 10:1. Defence requires a ratio of 3-4:1.

Moreover in Kargil we never attacked the supply lines on Paxtan's side. In fact we never crossed into their air space thanks to explicit instructions issued by ABV to the IA & IAF chiefs. The entire conflict was waged on our side of the border.
 
RAW needs to quadrouple the budget spended on BLA and TTP. I know they kill far more porkies via IEDs and night raids but we need beheading videos.. this picture is for yall to make barking porkies shut up whenever they disrespect our soldier by posting beheading video or SS. This was done by TTP barely one week ago when they kidnapped multiple Frontier corps soldiers and beheaded them.20240711_233039.jpg
 
Vishnugupt said:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Lack of intelligence contributing to casualties in J&K anti-terror ops | India News - Times of India

India News: Security forces in Jammu region are facing challenges due to lack of human and signal intelligence, leading to higher casualties in counter-terror ope
timesofindia.indiatimes.com timesofindia.indiatimes.com

I have pointed out this issue much earlier on DFI.

Every next day MoD takes chai-Biscuit meeting but fat UN Generals failed to prepare any contingency plan until incident occurs.

A country where Prime minister can't fire a police constable, don't expect any improvement. Unfortunately soldiers will keep dying like happened all the time.

India need a extremely ruthless policy against Judiciary, UN Generals and Babus. India need its own Gulag system.
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I don't know why moderator has deleted my content??

If we can't say the truth then what is the point of discussion here?? Or you want us only to criticize MoD and Babus while giving UN generals a free pass.

What I have written was a fact. Military intelligence is very much busy in snooping their own people. I know a person personally who was forced to resign by JCO in Laddak. His mobile was hacked for no reason. But as intimidating tactics because guy refused to clear unfit soldiers for high altitude deployment.

There are incidents where informants were killed by generals.
 
Mr.Evil said:
Posting this here to save this

View: https://x.com/Lawyers_Borders/status/1814009556412022957
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Screambowl said:
Ignore the politicians, they are hiding their mismanagement.

Most of the ambush took place along NH144A.

But why NH144A?

indianexpress.com

Amid terror uptick in Jammu, a concern among security establishment: Crumbling road network

Police sources say that between Rajouri and Poonch, both NH-144A and Defence Road are in a poor condition in view of ongoing road-widening works
indianexpress.com indianexpress.com

View attachment 3319

View attachment 3318
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Highways is not in good condition for rapid deployment of forces. When BRO was asked they said, they have handed over to the responsible authority.
 
mist_consecutive said:
People really forget how big is Indian Army. We remember (or for Gen Z read) Kargil war as a decisive mountain-warfare of large scale between India & Pakistan.

Any idea how many troops/divisions were dedicated to this conflict ? Guesses ?

Only 1. Yep, Only 1 Division out of 40+ Divisions, and probably some support elements making it 1.5 at max.

So sit down. We might be at a disadvantage technologically but not at all on manpower, at least as of now.
Click to expand...
Na, we had around 30k men deployed during kargil
 
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