Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

How the contract is negotiated. If we want domestic production then 2-3 years to set up manufacturing plant and then on engine deliveries production starts. So probably by 4-5years from now
Thanks for that estimate but what I meant was just buying some - either new from Dassault or used from the French Air Force. The first duty of a country's government is defence of the state. Given IAF's parlous position re: fighters, GOI should acquire more Rafale fighters ASAP in my opinion. Allowing the fighter position to become so bad is dereliction of duty by the current government and by previous ones IMO.
 
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Thanks for that estimate but what I meant was just buying some - either new from Dassault or used from the French Air Force. The first duty of a country's government is defence of the state. Given IAF's parlous position re: fighters, GOI should acquire more fighters ASAP in my opinion. Allowing the fighter position to become so bad is dereliction of duty by the current government and previous ones IMO.
Even though our squadron strength as depleted we are not going to war to get used French rafales.. if war was looking govt/IAF wouldn’t been sitting on squadron depleted day by day. Also French rafales are old F3 and come with interoperability issues as Indian rafales are customised as per our own network centric warfare. Even if we sign contract now that will be 3 years to deliver first plane ( optimistic estimates based on bypassing the backlog order book)
 
Even though our squadron strength as depleted we are not going to war to get used French rafales.. if war was looking govt/IAF wouldn’t been sitting on squadron depleted day by day. Also French rafales are old F3 and come with interoperability issues as Indian rafales are customised as per our own network centric warfare. Even if we sign contract now that will be 3 years to deliver first plane ( optimistic estimates based on bypassing the backlog order book)
Fair enough.

Successive Indian governments have stuffed the IAF. They were supposed to plan and maintain an adequate level of fighter capability but failed so to do.

PS So it's all down to Mk1A to mitigate the damage for the next few years, isn't it?
 
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Th

They are trying to do both.
With that JV for amca's engine that they are going for.
Also that same future amca's engine *IF* built will be used to upgrade tejasmk2's during midlife upgrades in 2040+.
In terms of indigeneous capability development even with the import of aircrafts we are still on a good path *EXCEPT* jet engines :frusty:.

I just hope they continue the Kaveri program so that future Kaveri 2.0 can be used to replace f404 for tejas mk1a's in 2040+.
 
Payment doesn't happens immediately after order.
Payment happens in batches, as orders are delivered in batches.
The deal can be signed this year, part of Payment can start when first rafale is delivered or when training on naval rafale starts.
This 30billion+ deal will receive its payment in the span of multiple years.
Not exactly. Once the contract is signed, it really start to be effective when the first payment arrive. Usually around 15% of the production cost. Then, partial payment are done during the production. And the remaining during delivery.
I don't know how it works in India but when I explain that in France, I tell to the people that it is exactly the same when you buy an apartment which is not built yet.
You pay something for booking the apartment, like 10%. Then, once the work start, you pay something more. Once the wall and the roof is done, you may more. And, when the day of final delivery arrive, you have a remaining 5 or 10% to finish to pay everything. And you can keep this final payment if you are not satisfied about something. Once everything is fixed, you pay the rest.

In case of IAF order 36 new aircraft now, and because the price of each aircraft is around 70 millions Euros, the total amount of the contract for building the planes will be 2,5 billions euros (rest is spare parts, support equipments, ammunition, contract support, etc.). So in that case IAF should make a deposit of about 380 million euros, or 35189501984 indian roupies (sorry, not comfortable with crore I don't want to make it wrong, but I think it is 351,89 crore ?)
 

More like 3 years minimum.
For example the contract for IAF was signed in september 2016, and the first was delivered in October 2019.
Na, but rafale m already in service with French navy, seem to be delivered temporary until delivery of all new ones is done by 2030+.
 
I'm sorry I don't get you
Few french M-rafales will be sent for training and initial operation purpose till delivery begins.
 
I'm sorry I don't get you
There were talks that first few rafale m's that will be delivered would by f3 standard already in service with french navy, they would used for training and missions and when all the new 26 rafale m will be delivered these French navy ones will be taken back by france.
 
When Mk1A deliveries start in earnest will a squadron of MiG-21 be retired for each squadron of Mk1A received or will IAF hang onto the MiG's for a time to increase squadron numbers?
 
Thanks - no long wait because of the large backlog then.

That was idealistic date of delivery, not realistic one.

Realistic could be even less or could be very long. It's depends what type of contract you have signed?? How much you have paid for a deal?? What are the clauses of the deal??

Giving the order book of Dassault, you have to pay very high price if you want to have fast delivery. So much money you have to pay that if other costumer put penalty for the delay then Dassault can compensate it from our money.

If you thinking a ordinary deal then delivery will not happen before 2029-30. That too you will get only 4-5 jets per year initially.
 
When Mk1A deliveries start in earnest will a squadron of MiG-21 be retired for each squadron of Mk1A received or will IAF hang onto the MiG's for a time to increase squadron numbers?
IAF is eager to get rid of MiG-21 so even one MK1A aircraft is delivered they will junk the MiG squadron.
 
That was idealistic date of delivery, not realistic one.

Realistic could be even less or could be very long. It's depends what type of contract you have signed?? How much you have paid for a deal?? What are the clauses of the deal??

Giving the order book of Dassault, you have to pay very high price if you want to have fast delivery. So much money you have to pay that if other costumer put penalty for the delay then Dassault can compensate it from our money.

If you thinking a ordinary deal then delivery will not happen before 2029-30. That too you will get only 4-5 jets per year initially.
MRFA was started 2018/2019. An order should have been placed 2020-2022 IMO. I don't see the point of pursuing it now. So much time has been wasted that Tejas Mk2 could enter production soon after the MRFA winner enters production. However, that guesstimate is based on there being no big problems in Mk2 development that are being concealed. And fast tracking the project.

PS and order a couple of squadrons of Rafale pronto if they can be delivered within 5 years
 
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MRFA was started 2018/2019.
Request for Information ( RFI) for the MRFA went out in 2017 IIRC after cancellation of the MMRCA in 2016 when we signed the contract for 36 nos Rafales with Dassault.
An order should have been placed 2020-2022 IMO.
Subsequently there was no Acceptance of Necessity ( AoN ) granted by the GoI which is mandatory before the next move which is the issuance of Request for Proposal ( RFP ).

The issue then was the mode of procurement where the MoD / GoI favoured a piece meal induction of Rafales thru direct imports with offset clauses which was nixed by the then ACM Chaudhari of the IAF who in turn wanted the entire lot in one go thru the MRFA tender.

The issue was the budget which was estimated to be anywhere between 20-30 billion USD. If we went ahead with the tender for procurement of the Rafales it would entail that the CAPEX budget of the entire defence forces would be dedicated to the IAF in large part for a decade or more.

It also resulted in a very public spat between the then ACM Chaudhari of the IAF & the then CDS the late Gen Rawat .

I don't see the point of pursuing it now.

Ideally yes . We ought to sign up for 54 nos Rafales thru a G2G contract with the French government & close the topic . But logic isn't a strong point with our defence planners & the entire methodology of procurement.

This means that the case for such an MRFA tender is very much open . Another aspect to be considered is the political storm the last deal underwent where the opposition accused the GoI of corruption in the matter citing the partnership of Dassault with Reliance which enjoyed an unsavory reputation & subsequently went bankrupt over the state owned HAL , partnering with whom Dassault had reservations over resulting in Dassault making wild allegations against HAL in 2012-13 when it was declared the winner of the MMRCA tender & was expected to collaborate with HAL for production of ~ 90 odd FAs in India with the rest being imported directly from Dassault .

That tender was subsequently cancelled after fresh negotiations between Dassault , Government of France & the IAF , MoD & GoI resulting in an emergency import of 36 nos Rafales in 2016. The timelines are important because much of the MMRCA tender was implemented during the Congress led UPA Government's era even if the original MMRCA tender was initiated by the BJP led NDA in 2002-04 which came back to power in 2014 & remains so as we speak.

The bone of contention was the timeline & guarantee for the product which GoI thrust on the OEM which in this case was Dassault as it emerged the winner. Dassault after signing on to the tender & agreeing to ALL the T&Cs conveniently backed out once it was declared the winner during negotiations.

There's a lot of history & bad blood between all the parties involved namely GoI , MoD , IAF , HAL , Dassault & Reliance.

Tracking defence procurements in India of this magnitude is in itself a full time job .
So much time has been wasted that Tejas Mk2 could enter production soon after the MRFA winner enters production. However, that guesstimate is based on there being no big problems in Mk2 development that are being concealed. And fast tracking the project.

PS and order a couple of squadrons of Rafale pronto if they can be delivered within 5 years
Right now the idea is to cut down the processing of the tender in-house by the MoD & IAF - the user in this case , from the 7-8 years extended to a decade they normally take , right from the issuance of the RFP to the formal signing of the contract to under two years.

Whether this will happen as envisaged remains to be seen . Lots of other loose ends to be tied up as well like if the tender is Make in India as the original idea was then what's the component of indigenization in terms of percentage & value & the schedule for it , to identification of the various vendors scheduled to supply the sub assemblies & their vetting , to the partners the various Foreign OEMs are going to tie up with , etc .
 
@Azaad
Thanks for the comprehensive comments.

India has a procurement process designed to stop things being procured in a reasonable time. A long time ago an Indian on another forum once listed the 17 steps required to buy something. India has 31 fighter squadrons rather than the 42 sanctioned. Does it really need some committee to issue a Certificate of Necessity to get more fighters when it's blindingly obvious that India desperately needs more fighters?

It's beyond stupid how things are procured. If there is insufficient will to change the system, I would say side track the rules and fast track everything!
 

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