Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Azaad]

Wrong, If IAF joins project in next 2 years, ORCA and TEDBF will come out at same time.
I might even say ORCA will come out before TEDBF because it's less complicated project.

I think you guys don't know how this entire story about ORCA came into existence . If you did you wouldn't bring it up . ORCA was first proposed by IN to the IAF who shot it down as the IAF believes it has the monopoly over things that fly just as the IN retains monopoly over everything that sails - surface or sub surface. This much is known .

However , what's not known or isn't much in the limelight is the fact that IN took to involving the IAF only because at that point in time it wasn't certain MoD / GoI would clear an IN proposal for 45-60 Deck Based Fighter Aircraft as the development cum mfg cost of it would simply be exorbitant & the IN which has been nursing plans to dominate the IOR with its troika of AC , SSNs & LHDs since a decade or thereabouts after independence got desperate.

The plans by themselves were pretty reasonable as that's precisely how the Rafale program commenced - thru joint efforts with the Rafale M coming out before the Rafale C . However this also clashed with the IAF's program of the MMRCA & the IAF having burnt its fingers plenty of times in the past given GoI's last minute flip flops didn't want the latter to get any ideas.

Into this mess jumped HAL which teamed up with IN as it was smarting from Dassault's refusal to guarantee quality of Rafales coming out of HAL making uncharitable remarks about it which effectively jeopardized the MMRCA tender. Hence when the opportunity presented itself later that decade thru TEDBF , HAL saw a golden opportunity to kill any further movement on the follow up to MMRCA tender by backing INs proposal for joint development .

IAF put its foot down & refused to be party to any such venture. That in turn killed the ORCA. Moreover once the IAF withdrew from the PAKFA / FGFA JV with the Russians & whole heartedly committed to the AMCA project whatever slim chances there were of reviving the ORCA proposal came to a swift end .

If you're getting a quasi 5th Gen platform in AMCA Mk-1 why would you opt for a 4.5 + Gen or 4.5 ++ Gen FA ? Might as well increase the off take of Mk-1s you're contracting .

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

I think you guys don't know how this entire story about ORCA came into existence . If you did you wouldn't bring it up . ORCA was first proposed by IN to the IAF who shot it down as the IAF believes it has the monopoly over things that fly just as the IN retains monopoly over everything that sails - surface or sub surface. This much is known .

However , what's not known or isn't much in the limelight is the fact that IN took to involving the IAF only because at that point in time it wasn't certain MoD / GoI would clear an IN proposal for 45-60 Deck Based Fighter Aircraft as the development cum mfg cost of it would simply be exorbitant & the IN which has been nursing plans to dominate the IOR with its troika of AC , SSNs & LHDs since a decade or thereabouts after independence got desperate.

The plans by themselves were pretty reasonable as that's precisely how the Rafale program commenced - thru joint efforts with the Rafale M coming out before the Rafale C . However this also clashed with the IAF's program of the MMRCA & the IAF having burnt its fingers plenty of times in the past given GoI's last minute flip flops didn't want the latter to get any ideas.

Into this mess jumped HAL which teamed up with IN as it was smarting from Dassault's refusal to guarantee quality of Rafales coming out of HAL making uncharitable remarks about it which effectively jeopardized the MMRCA tender. Hence when the opportunity presented itself later that decade thru TEDBF , HAL saw a golden opportunity to kill any further movement on the follow up to MMRCA tender by backing INs proposal for joint development .

IAF put its foot down & refused to be party to any such venture. That in turn killed the ORCA. Moreover once the IAF withdrew from the PAKFA / FGFA JV with the Russians & whole heartedly committed to the AMCA project whatever slim chances there were of reviving the ORCA proposal came to a swift end .

If you're getting a quasi 5th Gen platform in AMCA Mk-1 why would you opt for a 4.5 + Gen or 4.5 ++ Gen FA ? Might as well increase the off take of Mk-1s you're contracting .

right...but even if ORCA been developed. we dont hv place for it in our airforce. coz mig 21 nd jaguar will be replaced by tejas mark 1a...mirage 2000 nd mig 29 will be replaced by tejas mark 2. so ORCA can only be inducted for increasing fighters/squadron numbers, which make more sense with single engine nd low costly tejas mark 2....or ORCA can be used for replacement for su 30 mki. which will starting to retire from 2042 (after 40 years of induction, but i think IAF will suck its juice for 45-50 years). do a 4.5 genration ORCA will be relevant after 2042 ?? coz it hv to give service untill 2082+. so a single engine, less costly, less operating cost medium weight 5 genration (just like su75) make more sense to replace su 30.
so if we buy heavy weight su 57 now...we hv dual engine medium weight AMCA for its assistance. nd later a su 75 type medium weight single engine 5 genration fighter can replace su 30 mki fleet.

 

[Blademaster]

F35 introduction timeline of its different version:-
1:- F35 B (for US marine) - 2015.
2:- F35 A (for air force) - 2016.
3:- F 35 C (for navy) - 2019.

F/A- 111 is only used airforce version. navy dont use it.

F18 production timeline:-
F18 A/B/C/D (for US navy nd marine) - 1978.
F18 (export to australian air force) - 1984. it hv no ground attack ability also.
F18 super hornet (for US navy nd marine) - 1995
F18 growler for US navy - 2007.

USA airforce dont use any F18 aircrafts. so air force version only build for export (australia, canada etc)

Pentagon had developed F/A-111 for naval use but before it could be put into production, they dropped it in favor of the F-14 Tomcat.

The Australian version had the ground attack capability added to it later on.

 

[Nutcracker]

can u give me a example of any aircraft, which simultaneously came out with navy nd air force version. mostly it take 2-3 years in modification, testing etc between two models.

For that you have to give me an example where Airforce joins a DBF project good 4-5 years before the first flight. FYI F35C took off 4 years after F35A, means it's easier to build a land based version.

What complexity ADA even going to add into AF variant ? Do you think TEDBF will make first flight off the Aircraft deck ? ADA might not even implement strengthened landing gear and folded wings in the first roll out.

 

[Nutcracker]

F35 introduction timeline of its different version:-
1:- F35 B (for US marine) - 2015.
2:- F35 A (for air force) - 2016.
3:- F 35 C (for navy) - 2019.

F/A- 111 is only used airforce version. navy dont use it.

F18 production timeline:-
F18 A/B/C/D (for US navy nd marine) - 1978.
F18 (export to australian air force) - 1984. it hv no ground attack ability also.
F18 super hornet (for US navy nd marine) - 1995
F18 growler for US navy - 2007.

USA airforce dont use any F18 aircrafts. so air force version only build for export (australia, canada etc).

Good, for better clarity you should also mention when each projects were sanctioned.
F35 was envisaged as triforce JSF from day 1, yet F35C flew 4 years after Land variant. Means If one already has naval design ready , it won't take much to modify it for Airforce.

 

[Miss Firing]

Pakistan’s reported J-35 deal shows Chinese fighter is ‘ready for global market’

China’s sale of fifth-generation jets to South Asian ally could recalibrate regional dynamics and Pakistan-India rivalry, observers say.

www.scmp.com

Pakistan’s reported J-35 deal shows Chinese stealth fighter is ready for global market: analysts​

China’s sale of fifth-generation jets to South Asian ally could recalibrate regional dynamics and Pakistan-India rivalry, observers say

*

Yes, it is from SCMP but still.​

 

[Nutcracker]

View attachment 19380

Pakistan’s reported J-35 deal shows Chinese fighter is ‘ready for global market’

China’s sale of fifth-generation jets to South Asian ally could recalibrate regional dynamics and Pakistan-India rivalry, observers say.

www.scmp.com

Pakistan’s reported J-35 deal shows Chinese stealth fighter is ready for global market: analysts​

China’s sale of fifth-generation jets to South Asian ally could recalibrate regional dynamics and Pakistan-India rivalry, observers say​

​

*​

​

Yes, it is from SCMP but still.​

A single engine J10C with full steam prod line cost porkies about 1.8B$, 90M$ piece with some spare engines and missiles.
This J35 with its premature production, sensor and weapons package might cost them about 150M$+ piece. Means 6B$.
Their J10C 200M$ * 8 annual payments will start from this year. If J35 payment is added it will blow upto 700M$ around 2027. Can Porkies even sustain this. Most likely they will buy just 1 squadron of 20, just like they downsized J10c order.

 

[Vishnugupt]

To make situation more interesting, UN Generals should go for F-35 immediately.

 

[shade2]

View attachment 19380

Pakistan’s reported J-35 deal shows Chinese fighter is ‘ready for global market’

China’s sale of fifth-generation jets to South Asian ally could recalibrate regional dynamics and Pakistan-India rivalry, observers say.

www.scmp.com

Pakistan’s reported J-35 deal shows Chinese stealth fighter is ready for global market: analysts​

China’s sale of fifth-generation jets to South Asian ally could recalibrate regional dynamics and Pakistan-India rivalry, observers say​

​

*​

​

Yes, it is from SCMP but still.​

per defense matrix the "source" of that article is some random Paki news channel


View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1871418970496233717

As the nibbiar below has given the mathemateeks break up

A single engine J10C with full steam prod line cost porkies about 1.8B$, 90M$ piece with some spare engines and missiles.
This J35 with its premature production, sensor and weapons package might cost them about 150M$+ piece. Means 6B$.
Their J10C 200M$ * 8 annual payments will start from this year. If J35 payment is added it will blow upto 700M$ around 2027. Can Porkies even sustain this. Most likely they will buy just 1 squadron of 20, just like they downsized J10c order.

The pigs are too poor to fund this themselves so the Chings will have to give them a loan to buy it.

The Chings also know that their Paki dog now woofs and wags tail for the US master, and since J-35 is going to be used on their aircraft carriers, Pakeez are very incentivized to let your US engin!ggers have some quality time with their J-35s, China is in the same position right now as "US with Toorkey buying S400s and operating F35s in the future" scenario.

which is why i think these are all Mungeruddin ke Haseen Sapne.

 

[shade2]

Y'all nibbiars is there any info about the Air Marshlols looking into this C-295 based AWACS?

C295 AEW

The C295’s airborne early warning version features IAI/ELTA’s fourth-gen AESA radar and integrated IFF as its primary sensor.

www.airbus.com

Apparently it carries the EL/W-2090 radar that is already in service with the IAF on the IL-76 transport jet

Since we already have a facility to produce these, 12 on order/planned to be acquired for Navy in ASW config

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Y'all nibbiars is there any info about the Air Marshlols looking into this C-295 based AWACS?

View attachment 19445

C295 AEW

The C295’s airborne early warning version features IAI/ELTA’s fourth-gen AESA radar and integrated IFF as its primary sensor.

www.airbus.com

Apparently it carries the EL/W-2090 radar that is already in service with the IAF on the IL-76 transport jet

Since we already have a facility to produce these, 12 on order/planned to be acquired for Navy in ASW config

right now we r only planning to buy 15 maritime reconnaissance role C 295 for cost guard, beside already ordered 56 aircraft for transport. but yeah we should definitely make 6 AWACS version, coz we hv only 3+3= 6 AWACS. but i guess air force is working to induct netra nd its upgraded versions in 6 to 12 number. so maybe they will not go for C 295 AWACS version.
beside this C 295 antiship nd antisubmarine versions should be procure. coz we hv only 12 p8i posiden aircraft. we should buy 8-18 of C 295, so we hv 20-30 antiship/antisubmarine aircrafts minimum for wast indian ocean, arabian sea nd bay of bengal.

 

[Bleh]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1870845465304146101

Developments...

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/hal-to-start-trial-of-new-tejas-fighter-jet-in-january-next-year-101735068257239-amp.html

Kaveri Engine Cleared for Inflight Testing: A Milestone for Indian Aerospace – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[AbRaj]

Developments...

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/hal-to-start-trial-of-new-tejas-fighter-jet-in-january-next-year-101735068257239-amp.html

Kaveri Engine Cleared for Inflight Testing: A Milestone for Indian Aerospace – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Might as well quote Baba Gas-banarsi das

 

[jaijaganath]

Developments...

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/hal-to-start-trial-of-new-tejas-fighter-jet-in-january-next-year-101735068257239-amp.html

Kaveri Engine Cleared for Inflight Testing: A Milestone for Indian Aerospace – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Nah bro these are independent developments
Committee can never act so fast

 

[Arad Operator]

View: https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1291989289664827392

 

[daya]

jab bana nahi sakte to kharidna hi padega... It is irony that a country that can land on Moon and Mars, can produce MIRV, PSLV, GSLV but can not produce an engine for aircraft...

 

[Vishnugupt]

jab bana nahi sakte to kharidna hi padega... It is irony that a country that can land on Moon and Mars, can produce MIRV, PSLV, GSLV but can not produce an engine for aircraft...

Because None of those you mentioned, taken for trials by UN Generals.

 

[shade2]

jab bana nahi sakte to kharidna hi padega... It is irony that a country that can land on Moon and Mars, can produce MIRV, PSLV, GSLV but can not produce an engine for aircraft...

Think like the Air M*rshlols, MoD baboons, CAG Baboons, HAL Baboons and the assorted politician(s) that may want some $$$ ocasionally :-

((( agar kharid sakte hai, to banaye kyu? )))

Ofc (((buying))) has other (((benefits))) to the aforementioned eminent peoples

Because None of those you mentioned, taken for trials by UN Generals.

From this forum itself, i remember reading that (((GE F404))) was chosen by the Air M*rshlols themselves
(((Delinking))) Kaveri from Tejas then was only inevitable.

Only cure for this is a permanent Arms Embargo like China suffered after the Tiananmen Square massacre

 

[shade2]

btw what is the difference in mounting that Yahudi radar on C-295 vs our mounting it on IL-76, does a large plane bring any advantages?

altitude, endurance? radar can be provided more power since 4x jets instead of 2x turbo prop, anything else i'm missing?

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Only cure for this is a permanent Arms Embargo

We have "frens" everywhere. If Americans block us, we buy French, if the French block us we buy Russian. We just buy. The civilian exchequer is so risk averse like typical Indians, they wont "gamble" big bucks on R&D, unless it's tech nobody will sell us. Thank god for the missile program.