Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Blademaster]

Shit. It is the wrong topic. I thought to post it in Rafale topic instead of here. But anyway. If a moderator wants to move it, go for it. It talks also about IAF at the end (but not only)

Its ok. Make another post in the Rafale thread. Some posters do the same post in multiple threads. This post is appropriate for this thread anyway.

 

[bruno]

I wont spam the forum with my self promotion. But thank you for the proposal.

 

[Blademaster]

I wont spam the forum with my self promotion. But thank you for the proposal.

It is not spam when the content is directly related to the Indian armed forces and it contains educative information.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Emphasising the need for production agencies to adopt advanced manufacturing processes, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh highlighted the importance of involving private players. "I am very convinced that we need to get some private players in. We need to have competition. We need to have multiple sources available so that people are wary of losing their orders," he reportedly stated, adding, "Otherwise, things will not change."

https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/still-awaiting-tejas-from-2010-deal-iaf-chief-as-china-tests-sixth-gen-jet-125010800631_1.html

I agree with the Air Chief Marshall. Any chance of India getting its head out of the state-owned sand and turning onto the road to success in the domain of designing and building fighter aircraft?

If India carries on with its current approach, it risks never becoming a reliable supplier to its own air force force, let alone a major supplier of fighters to other countries.

 

[bruno]

https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/still-awaiting-tejas-from-2010-deal-iaf-chief-as-china-tests-sixth-gen-jet-125010800631_1.html

I agree with the Air Chief Marshall. Any chance of India getting its head out of the state-owned sand and turning onto the road to success in the domain of designing and building fighter aircraft?

If India carries on with its current approach, it risks never becoming a reliable supplier to its own air force force, let alone a major supplier of fighters to other countries.

If I understood well the AFM, his proposal his far from stupid.

HAL is a 80years old company which wasn't able to design jets (and not only fighter jet). 80 years old ! How is that possible ?

Creating a private sector by starting with technological transfers its a possible way of exit. Maybe with ToT, India will not aquire the ability to design jets, but it can start by developping a very good, strong and reliable aerospace industry. I mean... You send rocket to space and you are able to build such as complex things as submarines !
In France, after the WW2, we had a big gap to fill to try to develop warplanes while Germans, US and British has a huge advance in that area. So, our policy was to develop a LOT of different projects which was only prototypes, and learn. There was more than one prototype a year up to the 1970s.

I don't think HAL will be able to develop AMCA and/or TEDBF on time and on budget, or even produce them efficiently.

Its not because its a public company. Its just an issue of culture. There are a lot of public company that works just well (Naval Group in France for example). You really need to start from scratch.
Even in China, which restart from scratch 50 years ago, they were able to develop and catch up west.

HAL are only good for making promises. Not everything will be fixed with a parallel private sector, but it will be a beginning.

I have some hope that India and France works closely. Even to develop new programs. I personally prefer that we works with India instead of Germany But I have some doubts with your way to manage time and politics decisions. (and I have doubts for us too now...)

 

[Blademaster]

I have some hope that India and France works closely. Even to develop new programs. I personally prefer that we works with India instead of Germany But I have some doubts with your way to manage time and politics decisions. (and I have doubts for us too now...)

As long as the French don't try to scalp the Indians, it can work. Otherwise forget about it.

 

[bruno]

As long as the French don't try to scalp the Indians, it can work. Otherwise forget about it.

How to scalp you ? What do you have to loose ? The most common opinion in France is we should not share our technologies (its not my opinion)

 

[Blademaster]

How to scalp you ? What do you have to loose ? The most common opinion in France is we should not share our technologies (its not my opinion)

We'd rather you not share yours so we can fully concentrate on our own indigenous efforts and not waste anymore time. This way it forces our IAF brass to stop chasing after mirages and start settling down to brasstacks and focus on indigenous development.

 

[bruno]

We'd rather you not share yours so we can fully concentrate on our own indigenous efforts and not waste anymore time. This way it forces our IAF brass to stop chasing after mirages and start settling down to brasstacks and focus on indigenous development.

Be serious. Event if you increase your R&D efforts it will takes you decades to develop your own technologies. What your air force will do in the meantime, while receiving maybe 10 Tejas a year ? What your air chief Marshall said is sad, really sad and hard to hear, but honestly, so true...

 

[Blademaster]

Be serious. Event if you increase your R&D efforts it will takes you decades to develop your own technologies. What your air force will do in the meantime, while receiving maybe 10 Tejas a year ? What your air chief Marshall said is sad, really sad and hard to hear, but honestly, so true...

No he wasn't telling the whole picture. Go through the threads and you will see the fuller picture. The only reason why the LCAs were late because the IAF brass gave the program the bastard child treatment. They wanted nothing to do with it and only wanted imports. Manohar Parrikar (May Vishnu bless his soul) had to step in and kick asses at IAF brass to get the program moving. The funds for the LCA planes were only released back around 2016 or so.

 

[bruno]

No he wasn't telling the whole picture. Go through the threads and you will see the fuller picture. The only reason why the LCAs were late because the IAF brass gave the program the bastard child treatment. They wanted nothing to do with it and only wanted imports. Manohar Parrikar (May Vishnu bless his soul) had to step in and kick asses at IAF brass to get the program moving. The funds for the LCA planes were only released back around 2016 or so.

Ok so if you want to believe that hal is able to develop futur programms on Time and with the current expectations, it is your privilege, I will not argues with you on that. It seems that you found what the issue is and it is your opinion.
But a company which wasn't able to develop a fighter (whatever the reason why)... How in even it is possible to develop another one ? Do your industry have this experience? No. They don't.
HAL is your main and only one industry with this ability and they don't have a good experience.
Since order and money has been given to HAL, how do you explain there are not able to provide products in volume ? How to explain issues with SU30 production? Issue with part production with Boeing, and Mirage 2000 crashes for which the technical fault has been identified on HAL side? Fifth aircraft modernized on 2000ti standard, first one under full responsibility of HAL.

Sometimes, getting some help in a win/win situation is not so bad...

 

[shade2]

Ching giving lecture on their J-10 development program and contrasting it with our Genrol


View: https://x.com/someplaosint/status/1877180866738160109

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In contrast to the blame game between IAF and HAL, here’s a page from the history book about China’s effort to develop J-10.Below picture shows General Liu Huaqing, the deputy chairman of the Central Military Commission (highest military post in China) inspecting J-10’s full scale model in 1994.He was the major proponent of the J-10 program. His full support secured J-10’s fate.In 1989, when China was given the green light to purchase and license produce Su-27, there was strong opposition against the J-10 program within the PLA. Because fund & resources were scarce and despite the J-10 program started around 1982, it was still very much on paper in 1989.General Liu himself was fully aware of the capabilities of Su-27 as he was also the driver for getting the Su-27 deal done.But still the J-10 program had his full support. As he once said: Regardless of good the Su-27 is, it is not like the child of our own. So no matter how many difficulties, we must develop the J-10.Liu retired on Mar. 5th 1998, after 68 years of military service. And J-10 took to the sky 2 and a half weeks later on Mar. 23rd 1998.

 

[bruno]

In 20 years they have built 600 of them. It gives a comparison

 

[Azaad]

Ching giving lecture on their J-10 development program and contrasting it with our Genrol


View: https://x.com/someplaosint/status/1877180866738160109

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In contrast to the blame game between IAF and HAL, here’s a page from the history book about China’s effort to develop J-10.Below picture shows General Liu Huaqing, the deputy chairman of the Central Military Commission (highest military post in China) inspecting J-10’s full scale model in 1994.He was the major proponent of the J-10 program. His full support secured J-10’s fate.In 1989, when China was given the green light to purchase and license produce Su-27, there was strong opposition against the J-10 program within the PLA. Because fund & resources were scarce and despite the J-10 program started around 1982, it was still very much on paper in 1989.General Liu himself was fully aware of the capabilities of Su-27 as he was also the driver for getting the Su-27 deal done.But still the J-10 program had his full support. As he once said: Regardless of good the Su-27 is, it is not like the child of our own. So no matter how many difficulties, we must develop the J-10.Liu retired on Mar. 5th 1998, after 68 years of military service. And J-10 took to the sky 2 and a half weeks later on Mar. 23rd 1998.

J-10 indigenous ? My ass. It's a rip off of the Lavi. The Israelis provided them with full documentation & blue prints. Have you ever wondered why's it the J-10 has a completely different design from whatever the Chinese have built before & since ? Which of their later planes resembles the J-10 ?

Besides their definitive J-10 , the J-10C came about a decade ago. So it's been a steep learning curve in spite of their shenanigans or perhaps in spite of it .

This of course has no bearing on their trajectory of building fighters or even transporters & now purportedly 6th Gen FA or civilian airliners . Their quality is unknown though but that's a debate for another day.

 

[Azaad]

Ok so if you want to believe that hal is able to develop futur programms on Time and with the current expectations, it is your privilege, I will not argues with you on that. It seems that you found what the issue is and it is your opinion.
But a company which wasn't able to develop a fighter (whatever the reason why)... How in even it is possible to develop another one ? Do your industry have this experience? No. They don't.
HAL is your main and only one industry with this ability and they don't have a good experience.
Since order and money has been given to HAL, how do you explain there are not able to provide products in volume ? How to explain issues with SU30 production? Issue with part production with Boeing, and Mirage 2000 crashes for which the technical fault has been identified on HAL side? Fifth aircraft modernized on 2000ti standard, first one under full responsibility of HAL.

Sometimes, getting some help in a win/win situation is not so bad...

Well made documentary with some minor blemishes but that's par for the course. Anybody who'd want a summation of the entire MMRCA saga & what followed wouldn't do worse than see your documentary.

HAL isn't a design cum mfg house. It's only the latter. The designing is done by ADA which was specifically created to be an independent design house from resources of HAL way back in the early 1980s.

Secondly HAL isn't an autonomous organization. It comes under the MoD who've the final word over that of HAL's senior management . That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the management when you can have your decisions over ruled by bureaucrats. Finally like most if not all Public Sector Companies in India they've a very strong union who frequently interfere in the working of the company .

So if HAL needs to succeed in the future it needs to be professionalised. Right now the GoI / MoD isn't remotely interested in doing so. They're interested in everything else but this vital topic including getting the private sector in to some very vital projects but who lack the bandwidth or experience of HAL.

Finally the reason Dassault or rather DRAL didn't recruit from HAL could well be due to instructions from the MoD not to do so for recent initiatives like the Airbus Tata JV to mfg C-295 in India have recruited from HAL so Dassault's claim that HAL employees are under skilled or have a bad attitude just doesn't cut it .

 

[705-Lira]

In 20 years they have built 600 of them. It gives a comparison

You order more, you get more and at a quicker pace, it's simple economics of scale.

 

[rockdog]

Yes I posted about it in one of my replies there. Was under the impression you're talking about refuelling from over Hotan. That's what PLAAF is practising over Tibet including flying from Yunnan over Myanmar and / or over BD into the NE & Eastern India & over Thailand / Myanmar into A&N.

Frontline airport in Tibet, and also there is railway from Lhasa to Xigaze


View: https://x.com/XH_Lee23/status/1876948347682275730

 

[Azaad]

Frontline airport in Tibet, and also there is railway from Lhasa to Xigaze


View: https://x.com/XH_Lee23/status/1876948347682275730

This is the reason I've said before you lack understanding of the subject matter & so does the person whose tweet you're quoting. It's very much possible to land & take off from Tibet for both Fighter Aircrafts & Transport Planes except the payload will be severely restricted.

 

[shade2]

J-10 indigenous ? My ass. It's a rip off of the Lavi. The Israelis provided them with full documentation & blue prints. Have you ever wondered why's it the J-10 has a completely different design from whatever the Chinese have built before & since ? Which of their later planes resembles the J-10 ?

Besides their definitive J-10 , the J-10C came about a decade ago. So it's been a steep learning curve in spite of their shenanigans or perhaps in spite of it .

This of course has no bearing on their trajectory of building fighters or even transporters & now purportedly 6th Gen FA or civilian airliners . Their quality is unknown though but that's a debate for another day.

Arre I know,
The whole forum knows
The Chinki shills on the forum know
The Chinku who i quoted from Twitter also knows

But that's not the point.

The point is him showing how his country's Genrols gave Full Support to J-10 vs imports of Su-27 as compared to our Genrols who were stonewalling Tejas and would want to cancel it too if DRDO/HAL/Govt allowed to import first Mirage and then Rafale and in the future they will do the same with AMCA also to import F-35( US will be flying 6th gens till then )

 

[helin]

J-10 indigenous ? My ass. It's a rip off of the Lavi. The Israelis provided them with full documentation & blue prints. Have you ever wondered why's it the J-10 has a completely different design from whatever the Chinese have built before & since ? Which of their later planes resembles the J-10 ?

Besides their definitive J-10 , the J-10C came about a decade ago. So it's been a steep learning curve in spite of their shenanigans or perhaps in spite of it .

This of course has no bearing on their trajectory of building fighters or even transporters & now purportedly 6th Gen FA or civilian airliners . Their quality is unknown though but that's a debate for another day.

The rumors of the Israeli drawings are not credible,

they are unreliable information from a Russian, there is no evidence to speak of.

Mr. Song Man Chung's research on the canard layout began with the J9 model.

Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is a picture from 1984, which is the beginning of the development of the J10.