Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Azaad]

Ching giving lecture on their J-10 development program and contrasting it with our Genrol


View: https://x.com/someplaosint/status/1877180866738160109

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In contrast to the blame game between IAF and HAL, here’s a page from the history book about China’s effort to develop J-10.Below picture shows General Liu Huaqing, the deputy chairman of the Central Military Commission (highest military post in China) inspecting J-10’s full scale model in 1994.He was the major proponent of the J-10 program. His full support secured J-10’s fate.In 1989, when China was given the green light to purchase and license produce Su-27, there was strong opposition against the J-10 program within the PLA. Because fund & resources were scarce and despite the J-10 program started around 1982, it was still very much on paper in 1989.General Liu himself was fully aware of the capabilities of Su-27 as he was also the driver for getting the Su-27 deal done.But still the J-10 program had his full support. As he once said: Regardless of good the Su-27 is, it is not like the child of our own. So no matter how many difficulties, we must develop the J-10.Liu retired on Mar. 5th 1998, after 68 years of military service. And J-10 took to the sky 2 and a half weeks later on Mar. 23rd 1998.

J-10 indigenous ? My ass. It's a rip off of the Lavi. The Israelis provided them with full documentation & blue prints. Have you ever wondered why's it the J-10 has a completely different design from whatever the Chinese have built before & since ? Which of their later planes resembles the J-10 ?

Besides their definitive J-10 , the J-10C came about a decade ago. So it's been a steep learning curve in spite of their shenanigans or perhaps in spite of it .

This of course has no bearing on their trajectory of building fighters or even transporters & now purportedly 6th Gen FA or civilian airliners . Their quality is unknown though but that's a debate for another day.

 

[Azaad]

Ok so if you want to believe that hal is able to develop futur programms on Time and with the current expectations, it is your privilege, I will not argues with you on that. It seems that you found what the issue is and it is your opinion.
But a company which wasn't able to develop a fighter (whatever the reason why)... How in even it is possible to develop another one ? Do your industry have this experience? No. They don't.
HAL is your main and only one industry with this ability and they don't have a good experience.
Since order and money has been given to HAL, how do you explain there are not able to provide products in volume ? How to explain issues with SU30 production? Issue with part production with Boeing, and Mirage 2000 crashes for which the technical fault has been identified on HAL side? Fifth aircraft modernized on 2000ti standard, first one under full responsibility of HAL.

Sometimes, getting some help in a win/win situation is not so bad...

Well made documentary with some minor blemishes but that's par for the course. Anybody who'd want a summation of the entire MMRCA saga & what followed wouldn't do worse than see your documentary.

HAL isn't a design cum mfg house. It's only the latter. The designing is done by ADA which was specifically created to be an independent design house from resources of HAL way back in the early 1980s.

Secondly HAL isn't an autonomous organization. It comes under the MoD who've the final word over that of HAL's senior management . That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the management when you can have your decisions over ruled by bureaucrats. Finally like most if not all Public Sector Companies in India they've a very strong union who frequently interfere in the working of the company .

So if HAL needs to succeed in the future it needs to be professionalised. Right now the GoI / MoD isn't remotely interested in doing so. They're interested in everything else but this vital topic including getting the private sector in to some very vital projects but who lack the bandwidth or experience of HAL.

Finally the reason Dassault or rather DRAL didn't recruit from HAL could well be due to instructions from the MoD not to do so for recent initiatives like the Airbus Tata JV to mfg C-295 in India have recruited from HAL so Dassault's claim that HAL employees are under skilled or have a bad attitude just doesn't cut it .

 

[705-Lira]

In 20 years they have built 600 of them. It gives a comparison

You order more, you get more and at a quicker pace, it's simple economics of scale.

 

[rockdog]

Yes I posted about it in one of my replies there. Was under the impression you're talking about refuelling from over Hotan. That's what PLAAF is practising over Tibet including flying from Yunnan over Myanmar and / or over BD into the NE & Eastern India & over Thailand / Myanmar into A&N.

Frontline airport in Tibet, and also there is railway from Lhasa to Xigaze


View: https://x.com/XH_Lee23/status/1876948347682275730

 

[Azaad]

Frontline airport in Tibet, and also there is railway from Lhasa to Xigaze


View: https://x.com/XH_Lee23/status/1876948347682275730

This is the reason I've said before you lack understanding of the subject matter & so does the person whose tweet you're quoting. It's very much possible to land & take off from Tibet for both Fighter Aircrafts & Transport Planes except the payload will be severely restricted.

 

[shade2]

J-10 indigenous ? My ass. It's a rip off of the Lavi. The Israelis provided them with full documentation & blue prints. Have you ever wondered why's it the J-10 has a completely different design from whatever the Chinese have built before & since ? Which of their later planes resembles the J-10 ?

Besides their definitive J-10 , the J-10C came about a decade ago. So it's been a steep learning curve in spite of their shenanigans or perhaps in spite of it .

This of course has no bearing on their trajectory of building fighters or even transporters & now purportedly 6th Gen FA or civilian airliners . Their quality is unknown though but that's a debate for another day.

Arre I know,
The whole forum knows
The Chinki shills on the forum know
The Chinku who i quoted from Twitter also knows

But that's not the point.

The point is him showing how his country's Genrols gave Full Support to J-10 vs imports of Su-27 as compared to our Genrols who were stonewalling Tejas and would want to cancel it too if DRDO/HAL/Govt allowed to import first Mirage and then Rafale and in the future they will do the same with AMCA also to import F-35( US will be flying 6th gens till then )

 

[helin]

J-10 indigenous ? My ass. It's a rip off of the Lavi. The Israelis provided them with full documentation & blue prints. Have you ever wondered why's it the J-10 has a completely different design from whatever the Chinese have built before & since ? Which of their later planes resembles the J-10 ?

Besides their definitive J-10 , the J-10C came about a decade ago. So it's been a steep learning curve in spite of their shenanigans or perhaps in spite of it .

This of course has no bearing on their trajectory of building fighters or even transporters & now purportedly 6th Gen FA or civilian airliners . Their quality is unknown though but that's a debate for another day.

The rumors of the Israeli drawings are not credible,

they are unreliable information from a Russian, there is no evidence to speak of.

Mr. Song Man Chung's research on the canard layout began with the J9 model.

Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is a picture from 1984, which is the beginning of the development of the J10.

 

[Azaad]

Arre I know,
The whole forum knows
The Chinki shills on the forum know
The Chinku who i quoted from Twitter also knows

But that's not the point.

The point is him showing how his country's Genrols gave Full Support to J-10 vs imports of Su-27 as compared to our Genrols who were stonewalling Tejas and would want to cancel it too if DRDO/HAL/Govt allowed to import first Mirage and then Rafale and in the future they will do the same with AMCA also to import F-35( US will be flying 6th gens till then )

It's a totalitarian system . What do you expect ? Orders flow in unidirectional way. Dissent ends in a gulag. Besides you think they don't have differences ? It's just it doesn't come into the open .

Plus the import option got shut down from the West once the Tiananmen Square massacre happened & post the patch up with Russia , after stealing their designs the Chinese discovered they weren't too far behind the Russians. So why not copy them & build on it like they've done all their lives.

 

[Azaad]

The rumors of the Israeli drawings are not credible,

they are unreliable information from a Russian, there is no evidence to speak of.

Mr. Song Man Chung's research on the canard layout began with the J9 model.

Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is a picture from 1984, which is the beginning of the development of the J10.

View attachment 21254

Yup. We've great trust in the Han . Everyone in the forum trusts everything that you've written. News of the MSS copying & stealing designs from the west are also just that - fake news.

 

[helin]

Yup. We've great trust in the Han . Everyone in the forum trusts everything that you've written. News of the MSS copying & stealing designs from the west are also just that - fake news.

Take the matter as it is.

Unless you have good evidence,

 

[shade2]

It's a totalitarian system . What do you expect ? Orders flow in unidirectional way. Dissent ends in a gulag. Besides you think they don't have differences ? It's just it doesn't come into the open .

Plus the import option got shut down from the West once the Tiananmen Square massacre happened & post the patch up with Russia , after stealing their designs the Chinese discovered they weren't too far behind the Russians. So why not copy them & build on it like they've done all their lives.

I think we also need to do an import shutdown, no other way, look at this Jernailzada who abingdonboy has replied to


View: https://x.com/navneetsingh411/status/1877440262344994938

>muh besht in wurld
>build only niche tech yo! import from 5 other places!

I unironically think we must import "proven" Jernails and Afsars from abroad.

 

[Azaad]

Take the matter as it is.

Unless you have good evidence,

In the free world i.e that part of the world where you don't require to access the internet with VPN has thousands of articles on this subject. Feel free to check them out.

j-10 based on Lavi - Google Search

 

[shade2]

In the free world i.e that part of the world where you don't require to access the internet with VPN has thousands of articles on this subject. Feel free to check them out.

j-10 based on Lavi - Google Search

Leave it, the ~5 wumaos know that it's an imported design and all but they can't admit even if they want to, otherwise they will get the Chinese equivalent of Black Vigo picking them up

 

[helin]

In the free world i.e that part of the world where you don't require to access the internet with VPN has thousands of articles on this subject. Feel free to check them out.

j-10 based on Lavi - Google Search

“”The Chengdu Aircraft Corporation had begun work on the J-10 in 1988 under engineer Song Wecong, who can be seen next to a Lavi in this photo (fourth from the right).“”

1988 is definitely a false description

The Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute's proposal was selected in February 1984
In 1986, The State Council and the Central Military Commission approved the project

Where's the photo? I want to see

 

[Azaad]

“”The Chengdu Aircraft Corporation had begun work on the J-10 in 1988 under engineer Song Wecong, who can be seen next to a Lavi in this photo (fourth from the right).“”

1988 is definitely a false description

The Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute's proposal was selected in February 1984
In 1986, The State Council and the Central Military Commission approved the project

Where's the photo? I want to see

Which is the reason I wrote this

Yup. We've great trust in the Han . Everyone in the forum trusts everything that you've written. News of the MSS copying & stealing designs from the west are also just that - fake news

Besides is a photograph proof of everything ? Evidently you're of the belief photographs can't be doctored at least not in a totalitarian state.

 

[rockdog]

The rumors of the Israeli drawings are not credible,

they are unreliable information from a Russian, there is no evidence to speak of.

Mr. Song Man Chung's research on the canard layout began with the J9 model.

Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is a picture from 1984, which is the beginning of the development of the J10.

View attachment 21254

Magazine in 1980 actually revealed the PLAAF already started to research such airframe, maybe not J10 yet.




I think PLAAF now has most ongoing projects in the world:

Major aircraft platforms:

SAC: J15T, J35 af，J35 navy, J35 Export, J16, J50
CAC: J10C, J20, J20S, J36
XAC: Y20B, H20, KJ200

 

[DumbPilot]

Magazine in 1980 actually revealed the PLAAF already started to research such airframe, maybe not J10 yet.

View attachment 21258


I think PLAAF now has most ongoing projects in the world:

Major aircraft platforms:

SAC: J15T, J35 af，J35 navy, J35 Export, J16, J50
CAC: J10C, J20, J20S, J36
XAC: Y20B, H20, KJ200

that looks like a F-16.. and if I put this into an OCR, the words are:

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Sometimes IAF stuff goes to PLAAF thread.
Sometimes PLAAF stuff goes to IAF thread.

 

[rockdog]

that looks like a F-16.. and if I put this into an OCR, the words are:

View attachment 21295

I made a screenshot from badiu search engine.

China indeed quite inspired by F16 and US wanted to sell it at that time. It was honeymoon between big two.

 

[Azaad]

I made a screenshot from badiu search engine.

China indeed quite inspired by F16 and US wanted to sell it at that time. It was honeymoon between big two.

View attachment 21298

View attachment 21300View attachment 21301

So inspired by the F-16 that once the Chinese couldn't get their hands on it they took the next best option which is to go in for an F-16 rip off - the Lavi. So what do we have here in the J-10 ? It's a rip off of a rip off .

Rest assured Baidu search engine will not yield any results on it. For obvious reasons.