Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[shade2]

A
That's not what iam talking about. In India, ADA designs jets. HAL manufacturers it. The goal of MRFA is impart the manufacturing standards and practises to a private player. Manufacturing is as important as Design itself. You are assuming that GoI wants them to be Lockheed Martin(Design+Manufacturing) but it's not. They want a private manufacturer like Spirit Aerosystems(Manufacturing only) as seen in US because that's efficient and fast.

This is very ez then, for full MRFA tender of 114 jets any of the OEMs involved will setup our dhandhos with factory, tooling, training and best practices.

Especially the "koi toh order dedo" merchants like EuroFighter or Saab's Gripen.

 

[Azaad]

They are obsessed with getting 100+ Rafale at any cost
so they block Tejas induction and maintain a hands-off entitled customer vs incompetent vendor( HAL ) approach.

GoI was fixated till now to push Tejas on them because it would be cheaper and non-controversial politically.
So they just sit on the MRFA file and don't do any further G2G for Rafale.

End result if squadrons keep on declining, missile & radar-maxxxing is also not done to atleast staunch the loss of capability from declining fighter numbers, very precarious and dangerous situation

Chronology basically is, from what i've read

>IAF acquires Mirage 2000 to counter PAF getting F16 in the 80s
>Massive Trouser-shivering occurs in Moscow
>IAF wants to have 100 Mirages domestically assembled in India with Tee Oh Tee ofc
>Frenchies do their usual nakhra
>Ruskals come with a whole buffet of MiGs, ToT, Local production what have you
>These MiGs acquired in succession ending with MiG 29
>That infamous jet ofc has it's own saga, IAF realizes Ruskies bamboozled them
>Kargil happens
>IAF impressed with Mirage performance, wants more
>MMRCA happens
>Frenchies say Mirage is out of production, buy Rafale

Tejas doesn't figure in this at all because it was just a sarkari """" science project """" to keep DRDO and HAL boys employed, same as Tejas MK2/MWF and AMCA today, IAF has no interest in inducting it or the others mentioned, current Tejas progress is only because Parrikar did arm twisting on his end, but otherwise Tejas is just a """"three legged cheetah"""" forced upon them.

Only obstacle towards the goal of Rafale( and since 6th gen Ching Dorito is flying, it's F-35 also ) was the Govt, and now even they are onboard now provided it's through the MRFA tender from what we see.

ADA should be disbanded, HAL can anyway get half or more of any MRFA contract work, since they will never be able to deliver """"Mk1A"""", engine or no engine.

If the users themselves don't want your jets, what's the point? Better just cancel Tejas/Tejas MWF/AMCA, other DRDO /DPSU employment yojanas can be created.

It's a bit more complex than that . To begin with it was in IGs premiership that it was discovered our reliance on Russian systems was crippling , hence we decided to search for alternatives. The first FA we got after this moment of enlightenment was the Jaguar.

Mirage 2000 was not so much a response to the Paxtanis procuring the F-16 since this was something pre planned although subsequent narratives made it seem so . The idea was to get into a ToT deal & bump up the numbers to 150 or thereabouts in toto.

The Russians panicked & came up with a package deal including the MiG-29 , N submarine tech , offer to take a man in space , N tech for civilian use , rupee rouble payment , generous credit facilities etc .

Subsequently she was assassinated & her good for nothing son became PM . It's actually this which derailed the Mirage 2000 program as IG had a mind of her own & in spite of all these blandishments she'd have gone ahead & signed that deal with the French which her idiot son didn't as he didn't have the wisdom she possessed & was dependent on his advisors most of whom were either ideologically committed to the Soviet Union or were in their pay or both.

People tend to forget that it was IG who sealed the deal for US co operation for the LCA program by getting Ronald Reagan to permit GE to sell us the GE F-404 TF & to train our scientists in the intricacies of FA design. It was because of her that our scientists attended courses to develop the FCL at CALTECH who also acted as consultants when our scientists were developing the FCL which was abruptly terminated when ABV conducted the Pokhran 2 tests with all their possessions seized & they were shipped out ignominiously .In the event the original Pappu did one good thing. He followed up on his mother's policies with the US & signed those agreements with the US government for purchase of GE F-404 TF & the training of DRDO / ADA scientists.


From the IAF's PoV , Rafale is the best 4.5Gen ++ FA attainable. The Eurofighter suffers from having too many partners akin to too many cooks which leaves the future path of the FA muddled unlike the Rafales where the French have a plan to keep upgrading / modernising it all the way upto 2050 , not to mention that buying the Eurofighter means we've to literally contend with 3 European governments including Germany.

Who else can we go to ? SAAB ? They don't bring anything to the table technologically speaking or in terms of political heft not to mention the fact that most of the sub systems are imported. It's a damn good FA no doubt but we'd be getting the LCA Mk-2 in a few years which if not at par with JAS - 39 Gripen E should be better which as a matter of fact it'd be .

The last options are the Americans & Russians . While going to the former means we'd be leasing the FA even if we buy it & submit ourselves to all kinds of intrusive inspections including their personnel at site & their veto on the usage of their FAs , the Russians have nothing much to offer us which we can't accomplish on our own if not now then in a few years.

Hence Rafales . The IAF has a point but they're not flexible enough to consider alternative modes of procurement. It's all or nothing with them . Further their initial hostility to the LCA & its various iterations are gone . Ditto for the AMCA. Their grouse is with HAL not ADA or their designs whether realised or on the drawing board.

Part of it is coz they don't have a choice whether it be ADA or HAL , which the present ACM hasn't minced his words about which in turn is linked to the larger goal of getting a Foreign OEM to partner with a local pvt sector firm to produce the Rafales & in the process gain enough expertise to emerge as a production agency on its own .

But there are other ways this could happen like for instance in mfg the 97 nos Mk-1a order due to be signed later this year. The revised MMRCA 2.0 also envisaged such a production agency but that got derailed. In any case the panel set up by the Defence Ministry is all set to submit its findings to the GoI next week. As I've remarked earlier , we'd know how the GoI thinks by its actions in the next couple of months. We can either do that or speculate all we want to .

 

[ArjunMK1A]

They are obsessed with getting 100+ Rafale at any cost
so they block Tejas induction and maintain a hands-off entitled customer vs incompetent vendor( HAL ) approach.

GoI was fixated till now to push Tejas on them because it would be cheaper and non-controversial politically.
So they just sit on the MRFA file and don't do any further G2G for Rafale.

End result if squadrons keep on declining, missile & radar-maxxxing is also not done to atleast staunch the loss of capability from declining fighter numbers, very precarious and dangerous situation

Chronology basically is, from what i've read

>IAF acquires Mirage 2000 to counter PAF getting F16 in the 80s
>Massive Trouser-shivering occurs in Moscow
>IAF wants to have 100 Mirages domestically assembled in India with Tee Oh Tee ofc
>Frenchies do their usual nakhra
>Ruskals come with a whole buffet of MiGs, ToT, Local production what have you
>These MiGs acquired in succession ending with MiG 29
>That infamous jet ofc has it's own saga, IAF realizes Ruskies bamboozled them
>Kargil happens
>IAF impressed with Mirage performance, wants more
>MMRCA happens
>Frenchies say Mirage is out of production, buy Rafale

Tejas doesn't figure in this at all because it was just a sarkari """" science project """" to keep DRDO and HAL boys employed, same as Tejas MK2/MWF and AMCA today, IAF has no interest in inducting it or the others mentioned, current Tejas progress is only because Parrikar did arm twisting on his end, but otherwise Tejas is just a """"three legged cheetah"""" forced upon them.

Only obstacle towards the goal of Rafale( and since 6th gen Ching Dorito is flying, it's F-35 also ) was the Govt, and now even they are onboard now provided it's through the MRFA tender from what we see.

ADA should be disbanded, HAL can anyway get half or more of any MRFA contract work, since they will never be able to deliver """"Mk1A"""", engine or no engine.

If the users themselves don't want your jets, what's the point? Better just cancel Tejas/Tejas MWF/AMCA, other DRDO /DPSU employment yojanas can be created.

Add.

During NDA -1. Entire Political spectrum agreed to save Russian MIC. Ends up getitng the SU-30MKI which is not even in IAF view.

 

[Azaad]

View: https://youtu.be/sVnzubW0dRo?si=f3dFpSMTe4RURTVC

To all those who're interested in the history of the IAF & HAL , especially with a view on the various developmental programs they've conducted from the Marut , before & since , I strongly recommend this program.

The narrator frequently laments the thorough neglect to documenting all these endeavours along with the mistakes made for these can serve as a reminder for future programs.

 

[Nutcracker]

Barely few thousands more views added since first day. RK Narang needs a larger audience. He should be appearing in Gaurav Arya's podcast so that our jaiHo dehat can get their few braincells stressed.

View: https://youtu.be/sVnzubW0dRo?si=f3dFpSMTe4RURTVC

To all those who're interested in the history of the IAF & HAL , especially with a view on the various developmental programs they've conducted from the Marut , before & since , I strongly recommend this program.

The narrator frequently laments the thorough neglect to documenting all these endeavours along with the mistakes made for these can serve as a reminder for future programs.

Bakchint used to yap alot about how HAL is disappointing muh ACM, given his low IQ and mil-brat background I don't think his attitude might've changed much even after below podcast.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sVnzubW0dRo

 

[shade2]

Hence Rafales . The IAF has a point but they're not flexible enough to consider alternative modes of procurement. It's all or nothing with them . Further their initial hostility to the LCA & its various iterations are gone . Ditto for the AMCA. Their grouse is with HAL not ADA or their designs whether realised or on the drawing board.

Part of it is coz they don't have a choice whether it be ADA or HAL , which the present ACM hasn't minced his words about which in turn is linked to the larger goal of getting a Foreign OEM to partner with a local pvt sector firm to produce the Rafales & in the process gain enough expertise to emerge as a production agency on its own .

But there are other ways this could happen like for instance in mfg the 97 nos Mk-1a order due to be signed later this year. The revised MMRCA 2.0 also envisaged such a production agency but that got derailed. In any case the panel set up by the Defence Ministry is all set to submit its findings to the GoI next week. As I've remarked earlier , we'd know how the GoI thinks by its actions in the next couple of months. We can either do that or speculate all we want to .

Thanks for the details on IG's role in Mirage and LCA development.

However I don't buy the bolded, IAF is not interested in Tejas, MWF or AMCA
It wants 114 proven Rafale to meet 4.5gen needs and F-35 for 5th gen needs.

I've realized that "indigenous development" has no takers from the users come what may, helicopters or fighter jets and extending to missiles since foreign OEM will not integrate those.

There will be always something wrong based on anonymouse sources or some magic requirement that never will be met, stemming from the users not wanting these "science projects" that the Govt or DPSU lobby has forced upon them.

if they themselves saw a need and developed these platforms like the Navy does it's different but as of now that's not the case.

I understand now why govt doesn't release funding for MWF or AMCA, because they know it's a waste, only the bare minimum is provided to keep the DPSU folks and DRDO scientists/engineers employed like other PSU employees

 

[mist_consecutive]

Topji should atleast do radarmaxx and missilemaxx but he has Kadi Ninda and himself being not too well versed in technicalities.

That's happening, I can assure you.

 

[shade2]

That's happening, I can assure you.

More details pls?

I have heard army will sign QRSAM contract soon

plus in AeroIndia 25 many radars were revealed.

Aside from these two nothing much but I get updates from defense bros i've followed on twitter and strategicfront some times.

 

[Azaad]

Thanks for the details on IG's role in Mirage and LCA development.

However I don't buy the bolded, IAF is not interested in Tejas, MWF or AMCA
It wants 114 proven Rafale to meet 4.5gen needs and F-35 for 5th gen needs.

I've realized that "indigenous development" has no takers from the users come what may, helicopters or fighter jets and extending to missiles since foreign OEM will not integrate those.

There will be always something wrong based on anonymouse sources or some magic requirement that never will be met, stemming from the users not wanting these "science projects" that the Govt or DPSU lobby has forced upon them.

if they themselves saw a need and developed these platforms like the Navy does it's different but as of now that's not the case.

I understand now why govt doesn't release funding for MWF or AMCA, because they know it's a waste, only the bare minimum is provided to keep the DPSU folks and DRDO scientists/engineers employed like other PSU employees

View: https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1896038485926273405?s=19

This is what happens when you shoot your mouth off too much in public. Discerning people who've been following developments in this field for ages aren't fooled so easily nor get swayed by emotions. Instead they start asking rational questions like Somnath Mukherjee did & now Aditya is , to which the IAF has no answers.

As I remarked earlier, if a post mortem of the past 2.5 decades is held, nobody will emerge clean from it. Neither HAL, nor DRDO / ADA or IAF nor least of all the MoD / GoI.

 

[Asmodeus]

This is very ez then, for full MRFA tender of 114 jets any of the OEMs involved will setup our dhandhos with factory, tooling, training and best practices.

Especially the "koi toh order dedo" merchants like EuroFighter or Saab's Gripen.

He addressed the issue in this spcae! If anyone is interested.

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1896229195459842409

 

[shade2]

View: https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1896038485926273405?s=19

This is what happens when you shoot your mouth off too much in public. Discerning people who've been following developments in this field for ages aren't fooled so easily nor get swayed by emotions. Instead they start asking rational questions like Somnath Mukherjee did & now Aditya is , to which the IAF has no answers.

As I remarked earlier, if a post mortem of the past 2.5 decades is held, nobody will emerge clean from it. Neither HAL, nor DRDO / ADA or IAF nor least of all the MoD / GoI.

Somnath Mukherjee is a nobody
Adtiya KM is a nobody
You and me and everyone on this forum are nobodies

HAL is the DPSU equivalent of a nobody , they are only somebodies and total babbar shers in terms of preserving their employment but not for other things

So it doesn't matter, there are many Dalal Patrakar articles out there cheerleading the utterances and doing "Do you know more than the ACM, you bloody civilian who has never flown a plane in his life" in order to manufacture consensus of "HAL BAD" in the minds of the clueless masses.

See, everyone is on the same page, MoD babooze, Govt, IAF, shill "journalists" and for now opposition and PIL/RTI filing ecosystem also.

Expose hote rahenge on Twitter, Import Bahadurs will keep on getting ratio'd, questions will be asked but kuch badlega nahi.

To deter China and by that to strengthen GoI's hand in dealing with them diplomatically we need a strong domestic MIC.
That needs co-operation from everyone involved, mostly from the users, but they are not interested, kya faida.

Anyway they'll get what they want, mk1a orders and mk2 mwf program will be cancelled to pay for the MRFA, two birds with one stone.

 

[Migflug]

View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1896566902698500242?t=2ZV-5-jnlE6K3mH4OteGUA&s=19


View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1896568757532942838?t=UdV473ejCXI8aIaqSJ2J8A&s=19

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1896566902698500242?t=2ZV-5-jnlE6K3mH4OteGUA&s=19


View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1896568757532942838?t=UdV473ejCXI8aIaqSJ2J8A&s=19

Shri @johny_baba , please insert your relevant OC maymays here.