Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[GaudaNaresh]

Let's say 4 fighter anti radiation strike package supported by 3 purely air to air fighters
Each fighter carring 1 rundram 2, 2 astra mk1 and 2 wvr missiles.
Total 4 rudram 2 missile.
Now as you go for anti radiation role, the long range radar will detect you, now because it's long range and you are far away so they can't shoot you down with SAM, they scramble defensive fighters.
Your pure air to air buddies should be detected first and distract the enemy jets
While yout 4 buddies sneak in to deal with the Sam site, but oh no enemy had brains he knew that first group can be for distraction so they send additional fighters near Sam sight.
Now thankfully all 4 of your fighters have air to air load too, and given all 4 have anti radiation too so "any" 1-2 can still deal with Sam site.

Having mix loads gives you more flexibility, you Don't depend on dedicated anti radiation fighter, any of the 4 fighters can do anti radiation and any of 4 can act against defensive enemy fighter.

Now, sometimes if you are unlucky it could be a case you are am alone fighter jet doing SEAD mission only by yourself, not a good scenario, but it's war shit happens, but yout thankful that yout fighter can carry both type of payloads in the same mission so you can still protect yourself in case enemy fighters show up.

And many other cases.

That may be true for a very small bandwidth of A2G roles - like sure, anti-radiation strike. But when you wanna do balakot, you carry huge heavy A2G bombs to blow up buildings. Those bombs *ARE* mucho heavier than A2A missiles. That is a known thing- they are like 2-4x heavier per bomb IIRC, sometimes more.
I cant see how for vast majority of ground roles u retain optimal A2A capabilities in mixed mode given 90% of a2g missiles are much much heavier than a2a missiles.

 

[randombully]

That may be true for a very small bandwidth of A2G roles - like sure, anti-radiation strike. But when you wanna do balakot, you carry huge heavy A2G bombs to blow up buildings. Those bombs *ARE* mucho heavier than A2A missiles. That is a known thing- they are like 2-4x heavier per bomb IIRC, sometimes more.
I cant see how for vast majority of ground roles u retain optimal A2A capabilities in mixed mode given 90% of a2g missiles are much much heavier than a2a missiles.

Here's mirage 2000 in balakot loadout, carrying spice 2000, targeting pod, two fuel tanks and 3 "air to air" missile.

 

[Azaad]

Marginal gains?
Your getting a fuckin stealth jet that can smoke any chinky jet in air to air combat except j20.

The argument here is not whether you believe the Su-57 is a 5th Gen capable of going head on against the combo of J-20+J-16. It may well be so but that decision is for the IAF to make. How many times must this simple fact be conveyed? Are you thick in the head?

The IAF walked out of the FGFA program in 2018 when the MMRCA 1.0 program was cancelled & 36 nos Rafales F3 were ordered in 2016 , with the IAF deciding they'd fully focus on the AMCA. Do you think you know better than the IAF? If you do take it up with them.

Rafale will meet it's match in bvr combat by latest chinese j16 and j10's.
And avionics wise latest varients of both of these jets are pretty advanced.
The only advantage rafale has here is Meteor, and Chinese themselves are in later stages of testing their own sfdr, and that sfdr will be much more comparable to our astra mk3 than Meteor.

Great. So by your logic the Rafales are a waste of money.

Just a few hours ago you were arguing that the 1000 kms range Hypersonic AAM the Chinese recently tested claiming it was a F-35 killer was not so in your opinion but meant for slow moving transporters , refuellers, AEW aircrafts etc.

However the Meteor missile with a max speed of ~ Mach 4 is very much a J-20 killer.

As for that omni role bullshit both tejas mk1 and our su30mki is capable of that too, and they both are at most 4+ gen, not even 4.5 gen

The MKI has undergone a lot of upgrades & modifications even before the Super Sukhoi program. The LCA has just made it's debut.

All FAs which can be modified today to omni role status will be. It's no longer an USP like it was a decade back. That rules out the Mirage 2000 & the MiG-29 though not to mention the Jaguars.

Here's a pic of tejas mk1 carrying both air to ground( guided bombs) and air to air missile together, means it can perform both air to air role and air to ground in a single mission.
As said before the "omni" role is pretty basic for modern fighter jet.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Here's mirage 2000 in balakot loadout, carrying spice 2000, targeting pod, two fuel tanks and 3 "air to air" missile.

Yes and how does this not prove my pont ? the spice 2000 gotta weigh like 4x that of the air to air missile, no ? So how is this optimal a2a loadout instead of having another a2a missile?

I get that it does make the aircraft more flexible, but i think we are overrating flexibility here a bit. Cant think of that many ground mission scenarios where you want every single jet going in to look like this loadout and not have strict a2a loadout on some of them........

 

[randombully]

The argument here is not whether you believe the Su-57 is a 5th Gen capable of going head on against the combo of J-20+J-16. It may well be so but that decision is for the IAF to make. How many times must this simple fact be conveyed? Are you thick in the head?

The IAF walked out of the FGFA program in 2018 when the MMRCA 1.0 program was cancelled & 36 nos Rafales F3 were ordered in 2016 , with the IAF deciding they'd fully focus on the AMCA. Do you think you know better than the IAF? If you do take it up with them.

Great. So by your logic the Rafales are a waste of money.

Mirage 2000 is omni role too, so Is mig29upg and mig29k.
Here's Mirage 2000 carrying balakot loadout of mix air to ground and air to air.


The only non omni role fighters in Indian arsenal are older jaguars( modern Darin 3 jags are omni role) and mig21.





The MKI has undergone a lot of upgrades & modifications even before the Super Sukhoi program. The LCA has just made it's debut.

All FAs which can be modified today to omni role status will be. It's no longer an USP like it was a decade back. That rules out the Mirage 2000 & the MiG-29 though not to mention the Jaguars.

Just a few hours ago you were arguing that the 1000 kms range Hypersonic AAM the Chinese recently tested claiming it was a F-35 killer was not so in your opinion but meant for slow moving transporters , refuellers, AEW aircrafts etc.

However the Meteor missile with a max speed of ~ Mach 4 is very much a J-20 killer.

It looks like you don't know how air to air combat works.
J20's 2000trm radar can easily lock on and onto a 1m2 target at 130-150km away, and rafale with purely air to air load will have frontal rcs if approx 1m2, let's add EW.
Now j20's radar can lock on to rafale at 70-90 km.

But due to stealth and EW and rafale's weaker radar can only lock onto j20 at 30-50km.

So in case of rafale was j20, no matter the range of missile, rafale loses.
Just due to being non stealth.


Wait a minute, I'm the one fucking explaining everything.
Alright explain to me how will that 1000km long range missile bigger than brahmos target fighter jets?


How is Meteor a j20 killer? Can rafale lock onto j20 at 150-180km? To utilize the range of missile?

And Mirage 2000 is omni role capable as you can see in the image below, mig29 upg and mig29k are also omni role capable, Darin 3 jags are also omni role capable.
The only jets not omni role capable in iaf are older jags and mig 21

 

[randombully]

Yes and how does this not prove my pont ? the spice 2000 gotta weigh like 4x that of the air to air missile, no ? So how is this optimal a2a loadout instead of having another a2a missile?

I get that it does make the aircraft more flexible, but i think we are overrating flexibility here a bit. Cant think of that many ground mission scenarios where you want every single jet going in to look like this loadout and not have strict a2a loadout on some of them........

You do have strict air to air load out on escort jets.
What do don't have is strict air to ground only load on any of your jet unless complete air Superiority has been achieved.

In any air to ground strike package, there are pure air to air lodout escort jets and mixed air to air to air to ground loadout strike jets.

And your thinking of "overrated flexibility" is wrong
But still explain why do you think it's over rated?

 

[GaudaNaresh]

It looks like you don't know how air to air combat works.
J20's 2000trm radar can easily lock on and onto a 1m2 target at 130-150km away, and rafale with purely air to air load will have frontal rcs if approx 1m2, let's add EW.
Now j20's radar can lock on to rafale at 70-90 km.

But due to stealth and EW and rafale's weaker radar can only lock onto j20 at 30-50km.

So in case of rafale was j20, no matter the range of missile, rafale loses.
Just due to being non stealth.


Wait a minute, I'm the one fucking explaining everything.
Alright explain to me how will that 1000km long range missile bigger than brahmos target fighter jets?


How is Meteor a j20 killer? Can rafale lock onto j20 at 150-180km? To utilize the range of missile?

I think the biggest question of A2A involving stealth jets is the coverage of SAMs. This is why Russia isnt just running in all trigger happy with its Su57s - sure they dont have a lot but they do have a functional squadron of it and if a2a was this great for stealth vs no stealth, then they'd have singlehandedly destroyed the entire Ukraine AF themselves.

So this begs the question- why not ? Because, SAMs. SAM radar is far better i think at detecting Stealth aircraft than other stealth aircraft. Mostly because power output.
Like RCS only matters so much if i have overhelmingly strong powerful radar for power output and sensitive enough receivers. I can 'eye of sauron' you and find frodo under the rock.

So then i think as Azad said, question becomes one of software - can your ground radar and aircraft radar communicate and link with each other to share input data and that is where software comes into play.

 

[Azaad]

It looks like you don't know how air to air combat works.
J20's 2000trm radar can easily lock on and onto a 1m2 target at 130-150km away, and rafale with purely air to air load will have frontal rcs if approx 1m2, let's add EW.
Now j20's radar can lock on to rafale at 70-90 km.

But due to stealth and EW and rafale's weaker radar can only lock onto j20 at 30-50km.

So in case of rafale was j20, no matter the range of missile, rafale loses.
Just due to being non stealth.

This is where things get interesting. The French claim Rafales will use their SPECTRA suite which'd deploy ACT to cancel out radar detection.

As to the fact how will a Rafale detect a J-20, the IAF doesn't consider the J-20 a stealth FA & has openly said so on multiple occasions in the same way it doesn't consider the Su-57 a stealth FA but they choose to be more discreet about it in public.

Wait a minute, I'm the one fucking explaining everything. Alright explain to me how will that 1000km long range missile bigger than brahmos target fighter jets?

I didn't make the claim. I just reported what the Chinese have claimed. Believe it or not, it's all the same to me .

How is Meteor a j20 killer? Can rafale lock onto j20 at 150-180km? To utilize the range of missile?

The French members over in Strat Front claim the range of the meteor is close to 300 kms maybe more. Apparently their former president Hollande unintentionally revealed the range of the Meteor missile in his autobiography.

Now you can use your logic to guess what's the range of the RBE 2 radar. Once again just to remind you, kid, what you & I believe doesn't matter , it's what the IAF believes which matters & right now the IAF is enamoured by the Rafales not by the Su-57 .

Whether this love affair was worth it or a total waste will be known soon as will the performance of the J-16+ J-20 combo.

You can check with @BON PLAN

 

[randombully]

I think the biggest question of A2A involving stealth jets is the coverage of SAMs. This is why Russia isnt just running in all trigger happy with its Su57s - sure they dont have a lot but they do have a functional squadron of it and if a2a was this great for stealth vs no stealth, then they'd have singlehandedly destroyed the entire Ukraine AF themselves.

So this begs the question- why not ? Because, SAMs. SAM radar is far better i think at detecting Stealth aircraft than other stealth aircraft. Mostly because power output.
Like RCS only matters so much if i have overhelmingly strong powerful radar for power output and sensitive enough receivers. I can 'eye of sauron' you and find frodo under the rock.

So then i think as Azad said, question becomes one of software - can your ground radar and aircraft radar communicate and link with each other to share input data and that is where software comes into play.

Ukraine doesn't have an airforce to destroy or atleast one that openly challenges russian airforce.
Ukrainian heli, su27, few f16 they received all fly in coordinated manner in a way to evade detection by russian assets, they fly low to ground to prevent ground based radars from detecting them( earth's curvature affects detection of ground and ship bases radar) and use standoff weapons with long range to not get too close to Sam or russian border.
They also make sure to remain deep inside their own airspace defended by freindly sam by using standoff weapons.
And never fly whenever a russian airforce squad is conducting raid or is In the area.
Due to all these restriction their operations are rare and rate of operation is very slow.


I think when you don't have atleast decent knowledge about the subject, you should not come to conclusions based on whatever you read.
Sam radars do have better power output, but depends on which Sam, mobile medium range and short range same like Akash, qrsam, Akash ng, vlrsam, barak 8 will not have very powerful radar, beacuse what's the use of power and tracking when your missiles range is just not enough, like s400 has fuckin powerful radar.
But no matter how powerful it will struggle with tracking stealth jets beyond 50-70km due to small rcs( like rafale frontal rcs is 0.1 without payload, f35 is 0.001, that's hundred times smaller than rafale) and EW.

And as said before non stealth fighters uses terrain hugging by flying close to ground to prevent detecting by taking advantage of earth's curvature.

So then you thought as azad said question becomes software.
No it doesn't, software is already In play from beginning.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Ukraine doesn't have an airforce to destroy or atleast one that openly challenges russian airforce.
Ukrainian heli, su27, few f16 they received all fly in coordinated manner in a way to evade detection by russian assets, they fly low to ground to prevent ground based radars from detecting them( earth's curvature affects detection of ground and ship bases radar) and use standoff weapons with long range to not get too close to Sam or russian border.
They also make sure to remain deep inside their own airspace defended by freindly sam by using standoff weapons.
And never fly whenever a russian airforce squad is conducting raid or is In the area.
Due to all these restriction their operations are rare and rate of operation is very slow.


I think when you don't have atleast decent knowledge about the subject, you should not come to conclusions based on whatever you read.
Sam radars do have better power output, but depends on which Sam, mobile medium range and short range same like Akash, qrsam, Akash ng, vlrsam, barak 8 will not have very powerful radar, beacuse what's the use of power and tracking when your missiles range is just not enough, like s400 has fuckin powerful radar.
But no matter how powerful it will struggle with tracking stealth jets beyond 50-70km due to small rcs( like rafale frontal rcs is 0.1 without payload, f35 is 0.001, that's hundred times smaller than rafale) and EW.

And as said before non stealth fighters uses terrain hugging by flying close to ground to prevent detecting by taking advantage of earth's curvature.

So then you thought as azad said question becomes software.
No it doesn't, software is already In play from beginning.

I dont know a whole lot about radars or air combat, that is true, but i do know a lot about software and how software is written pretty much for anything - that is, i can tell u what a software written for a satellite space mission SHOULD look like, for eg and i can tell you right now, the software capability of a radar system to talk with one another and transmit data in real time is *NOT* by any stretch of imagination, a regular run of the mill capability that you have in pretty much everywhere.

My point was simple - Rafale doesnt need amazing mucho blahblah radar or stealth if its playing point defence under S-400 coverage and its radar can talk to S-400s radar in real time effectively.. Because S-400 cancels out J20's stealth advantage over OUR air space

I think this is what azad means as an example of software capabilities.

I dont think you see IAF vs PLAAF the way IAF sees it.

IAF sees its mission profile to shoot down incoming PLAAF jets over Indian air space with SAM coverage. And once PLAAF fleet is destroyed, only then establish air dominance in Chicom airspace.

So this is why IAF isnt that concerned about Rafale ***IF*** IAF believes IAF can use ground assets in tandem with air assets to neutralize Chinese stealth advantage and level the air combat playing field in the combat zone as said.

 

[randombully]

This is where things get interesting. The French claim Rafales will use their SPECTRA suite which'd deploy ACT to cancel out radar detection.

As to the fact how will a Rafale detect a J-20, the IAF doesn't consider the J-20 a stealth FA & has openly said so on multiple occasions in the same way it doesn't consider the Su-57 a stealth FA but they choose to be more discreet about it in public.



I didn't make the claim. I just reported what the Chinese have claimed. Believe it or not, it's all the same to me .


The French members over in Strat Front claim the range of the meteor is close to 300 kms maybe more. Apparently their former president Hollande unintentionally revealed the range of the Meteor missile in his autobiography.

Now you can use your logic to guess what's the range of the RBE 2 radar. Once again just to remind you, kid, what you & I believe doesn't matter , it's what the IAF believes which matters & right now the IAF is enamoured by the Rafales not by the Su-57 .

Whether this love affair was worth it or a total waste will be known soon as will the performance of the J-16+ J-20 combo.

You can check with @BON PLAN

I don't think current leaders of iaf are dumb like previous ones, and they do believe j20 to be stealth.
Infact you can roughly calculate rcs of j20 bases on its images.
Fuckin civilians with software do that, an airforce should already know rough rcs of j20,f35, su57.

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

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J-20 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Another proof they consider j20 to be 5th gen is, the statement air cheif made to include "5th gen", in mrfa, the fact we are working on amca project ourself.

So it would be good to update yourself.

What you are saying is outdated info and this is not what iaf believes.

And that fuckin spectra French claims, fuckin bugattes, these fuckers claimed the same when rafale was compared to f35 , saying rafale had active stealth.
And I already adjusted and decreased the tracking range from 130-150 km to 80-90km citing EW, SPECTRA is a EW suite, I already took it in consideration.
As for how spectra compares to actual stealth
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/FighterJets/comments/1ieuqur/french_rafale_pilots_new_interview_confirming/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

The max range of current Meteor in service 200km, it has 300s burn time clearly stated in official specs.

Astra mk3 has 1000s burn time to get 340+ km at 20km altitudes.
300km Meteor is most likely the newer varient with higher burn time being developed.

As for that Chinese claim being able to hit fighters with 1000km missile, was it a official claim? Or stranger on internet claimed it? Just like how you claimed EODAS with gan antennas, then claimed side antennas when there are no plans for side radars In future rafale f5

 

[randombully]

I dont know a whole lot about radars or air combat, that is true, but i do know a lot about software and how software is written pretty much for anything - that is, i can tell u what a software written for a satellite space mission SHOULD look like, for eg and i can tell you right now, the software capability of a radar system to talk with one another and transmit data in real time is *NOT* by any stretch of imagination, a regular run of the mill capability that you have in pretty much everywhere.

My point was simple - Rafale doesnt need amazing mucho blahblah radar or stealth if its playing point defence under S-400 coverage and its radar can talk to S-400s radar in real time effectively.. Because S-400 cancels out J20's stealth advantage over OUR air space

I think this is what azad means as an example of software capabilities.

I dont think you see IAF vs PLAAF the way IAF sees it.

IAF sees its mission profile to shoot down incoming PLAAF jets over Indian air space with SAM coverage. And once PLAAF fleet is destroyed, only then establish air dominance in Chicom airspace.

So this is why IAF isnt that concerned about Rafale ***IF*** IAF believes IAF can use ground assets in tandem with air assets to neutralize Chinese stealth advantage and level the air combat playing field in the combat zone as said.

As said before s400 itself will struggle beyond 50-70km in targeting j20, but know what, just like we have 150km rundram 1 anti radiation missile, rudram 2 hypersonic 300km anti radiation missile, rudram 3 hypersonic anti radiation missile with 500km range.
China will have it's own anti radiation missiles.
And j20 can easily carry rudram 1 type anti radiation missile to attack Sam sites inside it's iwb.
So j20 will be detected but its missiles will outtrack and outrage s400, as j20 will easily be able to launch a missile at s400 from 100+km away, while s400 ain't locking on t0 j20 beyond 50-70km away due to vlo.

And as for your software every one knows data link and network Centric warfare .
Rafale can use s400's radar and act like a missile carrier, and will use it.
But It will not bring parity against j20, I will still help but j20 will still have significant vlo advantage.
So rafale with an amazing bigger blah blah radar inside its nose cone even if it's working under s400 can only benefits, but that blah blah radar will not help it against j20
But against fighters like j10, j16 allowing rafale track them at farther distance.


As for iaf not being concerned?
Oh how wrong you are, iaf is shitting its pants right now.
Why did you think they incorporated 5th gen offers in mrfa?
Why do you think we bought s400?
Why do you think iaf is creating long range L band radar?
Why do think iaf is so desperate for fighters?
Why do you think all these new committes for fighters being set up?
Why do you think we are working on amca?
Why do you think we are upgrading su30 to super sukhoi?





And if by God's curse you turned out right and iaf is indeed not concerned, then we're fucked big time.

Again SAM systems helps.
But putting better radars on fighters while still having sams like s400 helps even more.

 

[Azaad]

I don't think current leaders of iaf are dumb like previous ones, and they do believe j20 to be stealth.
Infact you can roughly calculate rcs of j20 bases on its images.
Fuckin civilians with software do that, an airforce should already know rough rcs of j20,f35, su57.

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

J-20 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Another proof they consider j20 to be 5th gen is, the statement air cheif made to include "5th gen", in mrfa, the fact we are working on amca project ourself.

So it would be good to update yourself.

What you are saying is outdated info and this is not what iaf believes.

ACM Dhanoa went on record to state the J-20 was detected by the MKI equipped with NO-11 Bars radar flying over Ladakh . If the IAF has updated its views on the J-20, they haven't declared it in public unlike the last time.

I don't set stock in all those S/w programs easily available online. People just doctor the results based on evidence which in itself is sketchy or flimsy to come up with whatever suits their bias. Like you will to prove Su-57 is LO or VLO.

We must recognise the fact that the IAF is in a unique position to evaluate FAs from both the East & West. Thru the MMRCA program they gathered data on all the Eurocanards & the teens from the US. Thru the MRCBF tender they gathered information on the F-18 & the Rafale M.

They pretty much know the Su-35 & it's capabilities because they know the MKI inside out. Similarly they know the capabilities of the Su-57 including how stealthy they are & from the Russians they'd have an insight into PLAAF capabilities including the J-20.

Add to that the Quad who use Taiwan to spy on China where the former has plenty of good information about what China & its vectors in the PLAAF are capable of.

The only thing missing is a classified briefing on the F-35. If Trump clears it's sale to India which as of now isn't confirmed, the IAF will have a pretty good idea about the F-35s too.

All this information goes into designing inputs of the various iterations of the LCAs , AMCAS, TEDBF & any other future program we launch.

And that fuckin spectra French claims, fuckin bugattes, these fuckers claimed the same when rafale was compared to f35 , saying rafale had active stealth.
And I already adjusted and decreased the tracking range from 130-150 km to 80-90km citing EW, SPECTRA is a EW suite, I already took it in consideration.
As for how spectra compares to actual stealth
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/FighterJets/comments/1ieuqur/french_rafale_pilots_new_interview_confirming/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

SPECTRAL may not work against the F-35. I personally am of the opinion in a face off with the F-35, the Rafale will be seen & shot first irrespective what the French claim but then in the real world the Rafale isn't expected to go up against the F-35 but both are expected to go up against the J-20 & the J-35 & the latter two aren't anywhere near the F-35 by any metric.

The max range of current Meteor in service 200km, it has 300s burn time clearly stated in official specs.

Astra mk3 has 1000s burn time to get 340+ km at 20km altitudes.
300km Meteor is most likely the newer varient with higher burn time being developed.

As I said before, lets check with /BON PLAN, whom I've already tagged .Wait for his confirmation. I can already tell you how he thinks. He'd bring up the NEZ & he's not wrong.

I was referring to the Meteors we've got & I've no clue if it is the latest version or the older version.

As for that Chinese claim being able to hit fighters with 1000km missile, was it a official claim? Or stranger on internet claimed it?

What difference does it make who made the claim? Do you actually take Chinese claims or that of their shills seriously? If you do congratulations . Most sane people benchmark it to global capabilities in the same area & then look at Chinese competency apart from their track record.


View: https://twitter.com/TBifford/status/1895877692941373731?s=19

Just like how you claimed EODAS with gan antennas, then claimed side antennas when there are no plane side radars In rafale f5

I did write that I was juggling posting on this site with my work didn't I which caused the slip up. Shall I list examples about your thick headededness too ?

Who says there aren't any side arrays on the Rafales F5? Do you even know what is the full scope of the program? They've planned a twin seater IIRC with MUMT CCA by 2035. That's just one of the highlights of the program.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

As said before s400 itself will struggle beyond 50-70km in targeting j20, but know what, just like we have 150km rundram 1 anti radiation missile, rudram 2 hypersonic 300km anti radiation missile, rudram 3 hypersonic anti radiation missile with 500km range.
China will have it's own anti radiation missiles.
And j20 can easily carry rudram 1 type anti radiation missile to attack Sam sites inside it's iwb.
So j20 will be detected but its missiles will outtrack and outrage s400, as j20 will easily be able to launch a missile at s400 from 100+km away, while s400 ain't locking on t0 j20 beyond 50-70km away due to vlo.

And as for your software every one knows data link and network Centric warfare .
Rafale can use s400's radar and act like a missile carrier, and will use it.
But It will not bring parity against j20, I will still help but j20 will still have significant vlo advantage.
So rafale with an amazing bigger blah blah radar inside its nose cone even if it's working under s400 can only benefits, but that blah blah radar will not help it against j20
But against fighters like j10, j16 allowing rafale track them at farther distance.


As for iaf not being concerned?
Oh how wrong you are, iaf is shitting its pants right now.
Why did you think they incorporated 5th gen offers in mrfa?
Why do you think we bought s400?
Why do you think iaf is creating long range L band radar?
Why do think iaf is so desperate for fighters?
Why do you think all these new committes for fighters being set up?
Why do you think we are working on amca?
Why do you think we are upgrading su30 to super sukhoi?





And if by God's curse you turned out right and iaf is indeed not concerned, then we're fucked big time.

Again SAM systems helps.
But putting better radars on fighters while still having sams like s400 helps even more.

What i can tell, is that IAF is acting like yes, it needs to do something soon and increase its numbers, but i dont see any existential panic/crisis from IAF where they will take any xyz number of fighters just to bring parity to the non stealth aspect of Chicoms under our SAM umbrella.

I defo dont see the same kind of panic and jugaad that PAF is doing towards its fleet.

So i can only reach two conclusion from IAF's behaviour - either its incompetent or its not in panic mode.
I choose to give IAF the benefit of the doubt, since they havent really effed up big time to deserve the default doubt mode.

As for your analysis, i think you know more about the features and specs but perhaps forget the real world application angles to it and i think this is where our mutual gaps of understanding is - i am a technical specialist - obv not radar stuff but i know how technology works in theory vs application and where the gains and losses are.

For eg, you forget, the gaming scenario of IAF is that PLAAF jets are crossing the himalayas/combat is happening OVER himalayas.
We want the airspace of combat to be over Nepal-Bhutan-Sikkim-Anuachal.
The montane topography and altitude of the montane topography completely changes the balance of your range calculations and makes radars FAAAAAAAAAAAAR more effective than you are willing to give credit for, because it narrows the altitude gap by about 2000m, which has significant impact on azimuth,aka range i believe.
Again, these are my inferences from mathematics and applications i see OF wireless equipments and such- which in principle also apply to radars.

i dont think IAF much cares to think wot de foc it will do if the combat is over patna or kolkata or such, its a kind of mission failure scenario for IAF, the whole combat readyness and combat senario posture is most likely to engage PLAAF over the himalayas itself and win or lose there.

For eg, think about this - the himalayan range ITSELF is a range that is about 100km wide. If you can detect enemy aircraft AT 100km+ range, it means you can play peek-a-boo with your enemy. Even if they fire missiles, you got a nice several dozen seconds window to dive to hard deck and go below the himalayan horizon. If the missile hasnt completed crossing the range by the time you dive below the general himalayan horizon,it loses lock by definition, unless it has magic or satellite guidance.

I think you are correct that IAF did shit its pants and order S-400s, now IAF loves its S-400s,thinks its some sort of very very good shield and with a whole bunch of S400 and appropriate 4.5 gen fighters we can hold the front on PLAAF for the next 10-ish years till we need to be inducting or close to be inducting our own stealth jets.

Or at least, thats the signal i am getting from the IAF - that they are not in urgent need of stealth jets OR huge quantity of jets tht can compete with 4 gen jets with some jugaad, it is quite happy getting fits and splurts of 40-50 jets every few years and all ees well.
Also, didnt we sign a deal to get like 20 jets from Russia like a cuople of years ago bunch of mig29s or something ?? uska kyaa hua ?

I do however, agree with you that IAF should get 2 squadrons of Su-57 and call it a day and go all-in on its own fighter development, even if they are khataraa so be it,lets just hope 30-40 stealth birdies are enough detterent against chicoms for another 15 years and we have our own bird in the air by then.

 

[Kontakt5]

ACM Dhanoa went on record to state the J-20 was detected by the MKI equipped with NO-11 Bars radar flying over Ladakh . If the IAF has updated its views on the J-20, they haven't declared it in public unlike the last time.

I don't set stock in all those S/w programs easily available online. People just doctor the results based on evidence which in itself is sketchy or flimsy to come up with whatever suits their bias. Like you will to prove Su-57 is LO or VLO.

We must recognise the fact that the IAF is in a unique position to evaluate FAs from both the East & West. Thru the MMRCA program they gathered data on all the Eurocanards & the teens from the US. Thru the MRCBF tender they gathered information on the F-18 & the Rafale M.

They pretty much know the Su-35 & it's capabilities because they know the MKI inside out. Similarly they know the capabilities of the Su-57 including how stealthy they are & from the Russians they'd have an insight into PLAAF capabilities including the J-20.

Add to that the Quad who use Taiwan to spy on China where the former has plenty of good information about what China & its vectors in the PLAAF are capable of.

The only thing missing is a classified briefing on the F-35. If Trump clears it's sale to India which as of now isn't confirmed, the IAF will have a pretty good idea about the F-35s too.

All this information goes into designing inputs of the various iterations of the LCAs , AMCAS, TEDBF & any other future program we launch.


SPECTRAL may not work against the F-35. I personally am of the opinion in a face off with the F-35, the Rafale will be seen & shot first irrespective what the French claim but then in the real world the Rafale isn't expected to go up against the F-35 but both are expected to go up against the J-20 & the J-35 & the latter two aren't anywhere near the F-35 by any metric.




As I said before, lets check with /BON PLAN, whom I've already tagged .Wait for his confirmation. I can already tell you how he thinks. He'd bring up the NEZ & he's not wrong.

I was referring to the Meteors we've got & I've no clue if it is the latest version or the older version.


What difference does it make who made the claim? Do you actually take Chinese claims or that of their shills seriously? If you do congratulations . Most sane people benchmark it to global capabilities in the same area & then look at Chinese competency apart from their track record.


View: https://twitter.com/TBifford/status/1895877692941373731?s=19

I did write that I was juggling posting on this site with my work didn't I which caused the slip up. Shall I list examples about your thick headededness too ?

Who says there aren't any side arrays on the Rafales F5? Do you even know what is the full scope of the program? They've planned a twin seater IIRC with MUMT CCA by 2035. That's just one of the highlights of the program.

It's concerning that the IAF does not view the J20 as a stealth aircraft because the Americans do. Actions here speaker louder than words, and the IAF is not a beacon of truth it is also part of the problem. The IAF says J20 is not stealth, while the Americans say that its stealth is on par with early blk F-35 and are creating aggressor squadrons with just those airplanes. As long as IAF does not have good threat perception, it will never understand the need to quickly evolve update and upgrade existing aircraft or doctrine enough to counter threats that do not exist to them.

You keep saying IAF chose rafale over PAK FA that must mean PAF FA is bad? Since the IAF has left the program VVS did not keep PAK FA the same since then, there have been upgrades and such. IAF made a decision a decade ago to leave. We cannot now decipher if that decision was right or wrong, but he may not convince the IAF that they are wrong, because the IAF does not like to admit being wrong. Frankly they blame HAL for delays but do not blame themselves for being a trash customer. That is what I wanted to say IAF plays as much into the degradation of the squadrons and airpower because of their poor decisions, do not use prior decisions of IAF to determine if other countries fighters match up well.

 

[Nibbler]

It's concerning that the IAF does not view the J20 as a stealth aircraft because the Americans do. Actions here speaker louder than words, and the IAF is not a beacon of truth it is also part of the problem. The IAF says J20 is not stealth, while the Americans say that its stealth is on par with early blk F-35 and are creating aggressor squadrons with just those airplanes. As long as IAF does not have good threat perception, it will never understand the need to quickly evolve update and upgrade existing aircraft or doctrine enough to counter threats that do not exist to them.

You keep saying IAF chose rafale over PAK FA that must mean PAF FA is bad? Since the IAF has left the program VVS did not keep PAK FA the same since then, there have been upgrades and such. IAF made a decision a decade ago to leave. We cannot now decipher if that decision was right or wrong, but he may not convince the IAF that they are wrong, because the IAF does not like to admit being wrong. Frankly they blame HAL for delays but do not blame themselves for being a trash customer. That is what I wanted to say IAF plays as much into the degradation of the squadrons and airpower because of their poor decisions, do not use prior decisions of IAF to determine if other countries fighters match up well.

1. you dont know what americans say or dont say.

2. americans had hilariously innaccurate takes on soviet capabilites during the cold war

 

[randombully]

ACM Dhanoa went on record to state the J-20 was detected by the MKI equipped with NO-11 Bars radar flying over Ladakh . If the IAF has updated its views on the J-20, they haven't declared it in public unlike the last time.

I don't set stock in all those S/w programs easily available online. People just doctor the results based on evidence which in itself is sketchy or flimsy to come up with whatever suits their bias. Like you will to prove Su-57 is LO or VLO.

We must recognise the fact that the IAF is in a unique position to evaluate FAs from both the East & West. Thru the MMRCA program they gathered data on all the Eurocanards & the teens from the US. Thru the MRCBF tender they gathered information on the F-18 & the Rafale M.

They pretty much know the Su-35 & it's capabilities because they know the MKI inside out. Similarly they know the capabilities of the Su-57 including how stealthy they are & from the Russians they'd have an insight into PLAAF capabilities including the J-20.

Add to that the Quad who use Taiwan to spy on China where the former has plenty of good information about what China & its vectors in the PLAAF are capable of.

The only thing missing is a classified briefing on the F-35. If Trump clears it's sale to India which as of now isn't confirmed, the IAF will have a pretty good idea about the F-35s too.

All this information goes into designing inputs of the various iterations of the LCAs , AMCAS, TEDBF & any other future program we launch.


SPECTRAL may not work against the F-35. I personally am of the opinion in a face off with the F-35, the Rafale will be seen & shot first irrespective what the French claim but then in the real world the Rafale isn't expected to go up against the F-35 but both are expected to go up against the J-20 & the J-35 & the latter two aren't anywhere near the F-35 by any metric.




As I said before, lets check with /BON PLAN, whom I've already tagged .Wait for his confirmation. I can already tell you how he thinks. He'd bring up the NEZ & he's not wrong.

I was referring to the Meteors we've got & I've no clue if it is the latest version or the older version.


What difference does it make who made the claim? Do you actually take Chinese claims or that of their shills seriously? If you do congratulations . Most sane people benchmark it to global capabilities in the same area & then look at Chinese competency apart from their track record.


View: https://twitter.com/TBifford/status/1895877692941373731?s=19

I did write that I was juggling posting on this site with my work didn't I which caused the slip up. Shall I list examples about your thick headededness too ?

Who says there aren't any side arrays on the Rafales F5? Do you even know what is the full scope of the program? They've planned a twin seater IIRC with MUMT CCA by 2035. That's just one of the highlights of the program.

ACM Dhanoa went on record to state the J-20 was detected by the MKI equipped with NO-11 Bars radar flying over Ladakh . If the IAF has updated its views on the J-20, they haven't declared it in public unlike the last time.

That incident did happened, but detection of j20 does not mean it's not stealth, the most reasonable answer people come up with is luneberg lens which is used to increase rcs of stealth jet and hide actual stealth.
And flying near enemy border in peace time, means it should be standard practice put luneberg lens on to prevent enemy from knowing electronic signature of stealth fighter.
Because if enemy knows your electronic signature, enemy can identify the plane if it detected on radar.
Oh that slighlt fluctuation on our L band radar, could be a bird or enemy stealth jet.
Vs
Oh slight fluctuation on our L band radar, the radar signature matched j20, it's a j20 all hand on combat.
USA for example always put luneberg lens on f35 in peace time patrol mission.

Also you can see the current air chief's attitude, and I can say with 100% confidence that IAF is taking j20 as a serious stealth threat.

Second as I said, it's not hard to guess rough estimate of rcs of fighter jets using simulators.
Like when usaf said f35's frontal median spherical rcs in x band being size of goofball (0.001m2-0.005m2) , in the simulation mentioned before near identical result in 8-12hz freq.
And it's not just shape, basic ram property Is also taken into account( as for RAM it's much harder to develop a ram that last's longer, can take heat more, can handle high speeds than it is to make it more radar absorbing).
This is a nothing misunderstanding, people assume a good quality ram is more radar absorbent.
You can see how fragile f22's ram(30+ old tech) is compared to f35's.

Like you will to prove Su-57 is LO or VLO.

Depends on what you consider a lo and vlo.
I consider jets like fa18 blk3, tejas mk2, rafale etc as LO jets, jets whose clean frontal rcs is between 0.1-0.3 m2.
Then rcs of 0.5m2 and above are general modern composite jets.
Rcs of 1m2-2m2 clean, front relatively high rcs.
I consider rcs of <0.05m2 and an IWB to be the start of vlo jets, aka stealth jets, and su57 barely makes it's into vlo in my definition based on its rcs calculated by simulations.

We must recognise the fact that the IAF is in a unique position to evaluate FAs from both the East & West. Thru the MMRCA program they gathered data on all the Eurocanards & the teens from the US. Thru the MRCBF tender they gathered information on the F-18 & the Rafale M.

The only 5th gen they evaluated close up is su57, with future possibility of evaluating f35.
But it doesn't matter, drdo already knows about the general capabilities, relatively to developing those capabilities ourself its not hard for drdo to guess capabilities of other jets.

from the Russians they'd have an insight into PLAAF capabilities including the J-20.

That's just your assumption.

Add to that the Quad who use Taiwan to spy on China where the former has plenty of good information about what China & its vectors in the PLAAF are capable of.

I have pretty goog information too of what plaaf is capable of right now, what their future strength will be in future, I can confidently say our airforce is fucked.
By 2035 if we didn't achieve our 42 squad strength and didn't have decent no. Of 5th gen, the gap between iaf and plaaf of today will widen significantly by 2035.
By 2035 chinks will have an airforce that rivals the US airforce of 2035 as an "equal" in terms of fighter jets( US will still dominate transport/tanker/awcs as US is preparing to fight halfway around the world in pacific, china simply doesn't need as many transport/tanker/awacs planes).

All this information goes into designing inputs of the various iterations of the LCAs , AMCAS, TEDBF & any other future program we launch.

No it doesn't, that's another assumption you just made.
If you want I can explain to you the capabilities of f35 in detail, it's structure, the hybrid fly by optics and wire system of f35, how capable it's radar is etc.
It's not hard to gauge rough capabilities, it's much harder to replicate them yourself.

SPECTRAL may not work against the F-35. I personally am of the opinion in a face off with the F-35, the Rafale will be seen & shot first irrespective what the French claim but then in the real world the Rafale isn't expected to go up against the F-35 but both are expected to go up against the J-20 & the J-35 & the latter two aren't anywhere near the F-35 by any metric.

I will disagree, even if we assume you to be right, then just like how you say j20 and su57 is nowhere near f35, similar rafale is nowhere near f35.
All three are vlo, against a non stealth jet being vlo alone will give them same advantage as f35, both su57 And j20 will shoot it down before rafale ever gets near the chances of getting a radar lock.
Now between f35, j20 and su57.
F35 just beats su57 in bvr.
With j20 tho, f35 while still in advantage is not in completely dominating position as rcs of j20 is small enough that f35 can only get a lock on at 50-60 km, while j20 while having bigger radar can only ger lock on at 30-40km on f35( EW active environment assumed) but both can get lock on each other at 50-60km using Their EOTS and IR missiles.
And with emergence of more smaller and stealthy loyal wingman acting as sensors ahead of stealth aircraft, the rcs advantage f35 has will further decrease against both j20 and also somewhat against su57.

lets check with /BON PLAN

Don't need to you ain't getting 300km range with 300s burn time, physics doesn't work that way.
It's 100% newer varient being developed with higher burn time possible 700-1000s.

I was referring to the Meteors we've got & I've no clue if it is the latest version or the older version

Older version for sure, no news of newer version entering service with French airforce.

What difference does it make who made the claim? Do you actually take Chinese claims or that of their shills seriously

If claim came from official chinese gov. Sources or from chinese scientists will put more weight on it.

 

[randombully]

It's concerning that the IAF does not view the J20 as a stealth aircraft because the Americans do. Actions here speaker louder than words, and the IAF is not a beacon of truth it is also part of the problem. The IAF says J20 is not stealth, while the Americans say that its stealth is on par with early blk F-35 and are creating aggressor squadrons with just those airplanes. As long as IAF does not have good threat perception, it will never understand the need to quickly evolve update and upgrade existing aircraft or doctrine enough to counter threats that do not exist to them.

You keep saying IAF chose rafale over PAK FA that must mean PAF FA is bad? Since the IAF has left the program VVS did not keep PAK FA the same since then, there have been upgrades and such. IAF made a decision a decade ago to leave. We cannot now decipher if that decision was right or wrong, but he may not convince the IAF that they are wrong, because the IAF does not like to admit being wrong. Frankly they blame HAL for delays but do not blame themselves for being a trash customer. That is what I wanted to say IAF plays as much into the degradation of the squadrons and airpower because of their poor decisions, do not use prior decisions of IAF to determine if other countries fighters match up well.

Don't worry, iaf has finally started to shit it's pants and new air chief's is a breath of new hope.
As for the guy your replying to, he's more a geopolitical guy and not more informative about fighter jets and tech

 

[randombully]

1. you dont know what americans say or dont say.

2. americans had hilariously innaccurate takes on soviet capabilites during the cold war

It's not cold war.
It's not a secret anymore.
In this day and age for large military gauging rough capabilities of enemy's system is pretty easy over few years, if they actually decided to Guage that is

 

[Azaad]

It's concerning that the IAF does not view the J20 as a stealth aircraft because the Americans do. Actions here speaker louder than words, and the IAF is not a beacon of truth it is also part of the problem. The IAF says J20 is not stealth, while the Americans say that its stealth is on par with early blk F-35 and are creating aggressor squadrons with just those airplanes. As long as IAF does not have good threat perception, it will never understand the need to quickly evolve update and upgrade existing aircraft or doctrine enough to counter threats that do not exist to them.

USAF also tends towards hyperbole to increase their budget as do other arms of the US armed forces. It's a tactic they've learned & passed on since the Cold War .

Stealth itself is exaggerated. In the context of F-22 & F-35 it's VLO . That itself should tell you something about it . It's not ALL ASPECT Stealth . That's expected to come with the 6th Gen FA & later .

Even today civilian radars operating in L band can detect these "stealth " FA & so can the ordinary 4Gen & 5Gen Cellular phone towers using passive radars though this was purely unintentional. Tracking & generating a firing solution is another matter. That's where the next paragraph comes in to play.

Finally , you guys need to read up more on the radar network each of our armed forces have created & how they're interleaving those networks with civilian & weather radar systems networks along with cellphones network to create one hell of a grid , then add to this the fact we're importing the Voronezh LR radar systems from Russia besides recently deploying the first of our VHF radars to detect Stealth & then you may come to the conclusion that we've the capacities & capabilities to look beyond the borders deep into Tibet & Xinjiang & right across across our country.

Take away stealth & there's nothing to distinguish an F-22 or a F-35 from the other 4.5th Gen FAs , what to speak of the Su-57 or the J-20. I recall reading a senior general in the IDF predicting wat back in 2010-12 that stealth will no longer enjoy an advantage a decade later . Well here we are .

Besides China's already completed building the entire grid a few years ago . So what we're doing is nothing out of the ordinary. Of course having said that not many countries have accomplished this apart from Israel , China , Russia , the US & now India is on the way to deploying these capabilities. Not aware of any other country who're building / have built such capacities.

You keep saying IAF chose rafale over PAK FA that must mean PAF FA is bad?

Please don't jump in between the movie & expect to understand what's happening. Also don't put your words in my mouth.

Since the IAF has left the program VVS did not keep PAK FA the same since then, there have been upgrades and such. IAF made a decision a decade ago to leave. We cannot now decipher if that decision was right or wrong, but he may not convince the IAF that they are wrong, because the IAF does not like to admit being wrong. Frankly they blame HAL for delays but do not blame themselves for being a trash customer. That is what I wanted to say IAF plays as much into the degradation of the squadrons and airpower because of their poor decisions, do not use prior decisions of IAF to determine if other countries fighters match up well.

That's just your opinion. In the event we've contributed around 250 million USD to develop the FGFA & we haven't cancelled the contract yet , just said we're not going to partner with you anymore.

You're free to develop the FA the way you want & if you so please you can approach us to sell it. We'd evaluate it & if it suits our requirements things can proceed forward.