Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Nibbler]

It's not cold war.
It's not a secret anymore.
In this day and age for large military gauging rough capabilities of enemy's system is pretty easy over few years, if they actually decided to Guage that is

System capabilities can only really be tested in a war. Idk how you can say this so confidently

Especially considering the only recent war that had significant deployment of any serious hardware (russia-ukraine) everyones predictions were so incredibly wrong lol

 

[randombully]

System capabilities can only really be tested in a war. Idk how you can say this so confidently

Especially considering the only recent war that had significant deployment of any serious hardware (russia-ukraine) everyones predictions were so incredibly wrong lol

I know atags can easily throw a normal shell 45+km away.
I know atags' capabilities.
I know it's weight, I know the soil strength of different areas I can tell which soil will hold the recoil much better.
Now wether firing 45+km will actually give advantage is what war tests.
But the capabilities we can know them with enough info and data about system, how useful that capabilities will be is now an educated guess that will be tested in battle.

For example if an large suv have 100hp engine, we just know it will be underpowered.


Previously there was no internet, no satellite, no simulation software, the mote knowledge you have about the system the more accurate educated guess you can make.
Plus in modern day there's no shortage of experts and scientist in their fields using Their knowledge to Guage the capabilities and sharing it online.

 

[randombully]

USAF also tends towards hyperbole to increase their budget as do other arms of the US armed forces. It's a tactic they've learned & passed on since the Cold War .

Stealth itself is exaggerated. In the context of F-22 & F-35 it's VLO . That itself should tell you something about it . It's not ALL ASPECT Stealth . That's expected to come with the 6th Gen FA & later .

Even today civilian radars operating in L band can detect these "stealth " FA & so can the ordinary 4Gen & 5Gen Cellular phone towers using passive radars though this was purely unintentional. Tracking & generating a firing solution is another matter. That's where the next paragraph comes in to play.

Finally , you guys need to read up more on the radar network each of our armed forces have created & how they're interleaving those networks with civilian & weather radar systems networks along with cellphones network to create one hell of a grid , then add to this the fact we're importing the Voronezh LR radar systems from Russia besides recently deploying the first of our VHF radars to detect Stealth & then you may come to the conclusion that we've the capacities & capabilities to look beyond the borders deep into Tibet & Xinjiang & right across across our country.

Take away stealth & there's nothing to distinguish an F-22 or a F-35 from the other 4.5th Gen FAs , what to speak of the Su-57 or the J-20. I recall reading a senior general in the IDF predicting wat back in 2010-12 that stealth will no longer enjoy an advantage a decade later . Well here we are .

Besides China's already completed building the entire grid a few years ago . So what we're doing is nothing out of the ordinary. Of course having said that not many countries have accomplished this apart from Israel , China , Russia , the US & now India is on the way to deploying these capabilities. Not aware of any other country who're building / have built such capacities.



Please don't jump in between the movie & expect to understand what's happening. Also don't put your words in my mouth.

That's just your opinion. In the event we've contributed around 250 million USD to develop the FGFA & we haven't cancelled the contract yet , just said we're not going to partner with you anymore.

You're free to develop the FA the way you want & if you so please you can approach us to sell it. We'd evaluate it & if it suits our requirements things can proceed forward.

Another wrong conclusion with right info.
Detecting is one thing, getting an radar lock to guide missiles is another.
L Band are very good at detecting things due to bigger wavelength they can detect stealth jets 100+km away, can detect non stealth jet 300+km away, but they cannot Track any jet.
They just tell you that a fighter jet is coming from this direction and approximately this distance away.

For tracking and radar lock to guide the missile you need x band.

Stealth jets used to enjoy "massive game hanging benefit", now due development of all these new radars and network they just enjoy game changing benefit.
That's why everyone is developing stealth jet, stealth loyal wingman, stealth bomber, stealth missiles,etc

 

[Azaad]

That incident did happened, but detection of j20 does not mean it's not stealth, the most reasonable answer people come up with is luneberg lens which is used to increase rcs of stealth jet and hide actual stealth.
And flying near enemy border in peace time, means it should be standard practice put luneberg lens on to prevent enemy from knowing electronic signature of stealth fighter.
Because if enemy knows your electronic signature, enemy can identify the plane if it detected on radar.
Oh that slighlt fluctuation on our L band radar, could be a bird or enemy stealth jet.
Vs
Oh slight fluctuation on our L band radar, the radar signature matched j20, it's a j20 all hand on combat.
USA for example always put luneberg lens on f35 in peace time patrol mission.

Maybe so. Neither the ACM nor did anyone from the IAF clarify the issue either then or later .

Also you can see the current air chief's attitude, and I can say with 100% confidence that IAF is taking j20 as a serious stealth threat.

He's talking about the depleted squadron strength . He's never specifically commented on the PLAAF or the J-20 or even asked for a 5th Gen . Infact in his latest interview he specifically asked for a MII with a Foreign Design House tying up with a Pvt Sector Player .

Reading between the lines the intention seems two fold - to get the Rafales in for want of a better phrase & to set up an alternative production agency to HAL.

Second as I said, it's not hard to guess rough estimate of rcs of fighter jets using simulators.
Like when usaf said f35's frontal median spherical rcs in x band being size of goofball (0.001m2-0.005m2) , in the simulation mentioned before near identical result in 8-12hz freq.
And it's not just shape, basic ram property Is also taken into account( as for RAM it's much harder to develop a ram that last's longer, can take heat more, can handle high speeds than it is to make it more radar absorbing).
This is a nothing misunderstanding, people assume a good quality ram is more radar absorbent.
You can see how fragile f22's ram(30+ old tech) is compared to f35's.

So as per you the USAF gave out the actual RCS of front median in X band which automatically corresponds to whatever S/W is available online to people who indulge in this as a hobby & all of you were thrilled it was a near perfect match. How old did you say you were again ?

Depends on what you consider a lo and vlo.
I consider jets like fa18 blk3, tejas mk2, rafale etc as LO jets, jets whose clean frontal rcs is between 0.1-0.3 m2.
Then rcs of 0.5m2 and above are general modern composite jets.
Rcs of 1m2-2m2 clean, front relatively high rcs.
I consider rcs of <0.05m2 and an IWB to be the start of vlo jets, aka stealth jets, and su57 barely makes it's into vlo in my definition based on its rcs calculated by simulations.

In short what you're trying to convey is the topic is subjective with everyone having their own opinion on it . Fair enough . All the measurements given there are indicative & to that extent they're unreliable since they're not conclusive for obvious reasons as this is highly classified information.

The only 5th gen they evaluated close up is su57, with future possibility of evaluating f35.
But it doesn't matter, drdo already knows about the general capabilities, relatively to developing those capabilities ourself its not hard for drdo to guess capabilities of other jets.

That's just your assumption.

Till as recently as 2015 , the Chinese imported the Su-35S from Russia. The latter also consulted Russia for deploying their BMD network. Russia was the go to place for advanced tests for both India & China till the 2010s after which the Chinese stopped while we still go there. However the Chinese still do consult the Russians every time they're stuck. Now , you're free to draw your own conclusions.

I have pretty goog information too of what plaaf is capable of right now, what their future strength will be in future, I can confidently say our airforce is fucked.
By 2035 if we didn't achieve our 42 squad strength and didn't have decent no. Of 5th gen, the gap between iaf and plaaf of today will widen significantly by 2035.
By 2035 chinks will have an airforce that rivals the US airforce of 2035 as an "equal" in terms of fighter jets( US will still dominate transport/tanker/awcs as US is preparing to fight halfway around the world in pacific, china simply doesn't need as many transport/tanker/awacs planes).

Whatever is due to happen will happen before 2035. Xi Jinping will be ~ 85 years old in 2035 . He's not going to wait that long to take Taiwan. China's armed forces upgradation & modernisation program along with their theater ization program will be over by 2027-28. Add a year or two as buffer. By or before 2030 either they're going for Taiwan or they may decide to have a practise match against India & get more than they bargained for .

However that doesn't ameliorate our situation. Both the IAF & the IA have several wink links in their armour. The good news is so does China. The very fact they looking at specialists from abroad especially westen countries to train their pilots doesn't augur well for them . Besides unlike us whose forces exercise with most of the prominent armed forces of the world they do so only with Russia & Paxtan mostly.

No it doesn't, that's another assumption you just made.
If you want I can explain to you the capabilities of f35 in detail, it's structure, the hybrid fly by optics and wire system of f35, how capable it's radar is etc.
It's not hard to gauge rough capabilities, it's much harder to replicate them yourself.

I totally forgot I was dealing with a teen whose seem the world sitting on his backside & peering at the computer screen all day & night & I was about to type my post & also go through the rest of your post to draft my answers. I wish you had begun your post with this paragraph . Would have saved me a lot of time. Toodles

I will disagree, even if we assume you to be right, then just like how you say j20 and su57 is nowhere near f35, similar rafale is nowhere near f35.
All three are vlo, against a non stealth jet being vlo alone will give them same advantage as f35, both su57 And j20 will shoot it down before rafale ever gets near the chances of getting a radar lock.
Now between f35, j20 and su57.
F35 just beats su57 in bvr.
With j20 tho, f35 while still in advantage is not in completely dominating position as rcs of j20 is small enough that f35 can only get a lock on at 50-60 km, while j35 while having bigger radar can only ger lock on at 30-40km on f35( EW active environment assumed) bur both can get lock on each other at 50-60km using Their EOTS and IR missiles.
And with emergence to more smaller and stealthy loyal wingman acting as sensors ahead of stealth aircraft, the rcs advantage f35 has will further decrease against both j20 and also somewhat against su57.

Don't need to you ain't getting 300km range with 300s burn time, physics doesn't work that way.
It's 100% newer varient being developed.

Older version for sure, no news of newer version entering service.

If claim came from official chinese gov. Sources or from chinese scientists will put more weight on it.

 

[Azaad]

Another wrong conclusion with right info.
Detecting is one thing, getting an radar lock to guide missiles is another.
L Band are very good at detecting things due to bigger wavelength they can detect stealth jets 100+km away, can detect non stealth jet 300+km away, but they cannot Track any jet.
They just tell you that a fighter jet is coming from this direction and approximately this distance away.

Can't tell whether you're goddamned blind or whether you're dumb or whether you're deliberately doing this to provoke me.

Even today civilian radars operating in L band can detect these "stealth " FA & so can the ordinary 4Gen & 5Gen Cellular phone towers using passive radars though this was purely unintentional. Tracking & generating a firing solution is another matter. That's where the next paragraph comes in to play.

For tracking and radar lock to guide the missile you need x band.

Stealth jets used to enjoy "massive game hanging benefit", now due development of all these new radars and network they just enjoy game changing benefit.
That's why everyone is developing stealth jet, stealth loyal wingman, stealth bomber, stealth missiles,etc

 

[Azaad]

System capabilities can only really be tested in a war. Idk how you can say this so confidently

Especially considering the only recent war that had significant deployment of any serious hardware (russia-ukraine) everyones predictions were so incredibly wrong lol

Take whatever he says with a bucket ful of salt. He's a cocky teen who thinks he's been there & done that .

 

[randombully]

Take whatever he says with a bucket ful of salt. He's a cocky teen who thinks he's been there & done that .

From all the arguments we had, you guys were always the one arguing with more geopolitical style and providing less substance and capabilities.
You guys just called j20 and su57 shit, because it's russian and Chinese.
And rafale as equal to them because it's western.
It's your words which should be taken with ocean of salt.
Talk to any sane knowledgeable guy either from east or west and you'll know how wrong guys are.
Calling Me cocky is just a way to live in false reality that you are right.

 

[randombully]

Can't tell whether you're goddamned blind or whether you're dumb or whether you're deliberately doing this to provoke me.

Stealth itself is exaggerated. In the context of F-22 & F-35 it's VLO . That itself should tell you something about it . It's not ALL ASPECT Stealth . That's expected to come with the 6th Gen FA & later .

Even today civilian radars operating in L band can detect these "stealth " FA & so can the ordinary 4Gen & 5Gen Cellular phone towers using passive radars though this was purely unintentional. Tracking & generating a firing solution is another matter. That's where the next paragraph comes in to play.

Finally , you guys need to read up more on the radar network each of our armed forces have created & how they're interleaving those networks with civilian & weather radar systems networks along with cellphones network to create one hell of a grid , then add to this the fact we're importing the Voronezh LR radar systems from Russia besides recently deploying the first of our VHF radars to detect Stealth & then you may come to the conclusion that we've the capacities & capabilities to look beyond the borders deep into Tibet & Xinjiang & right across across our country.

Take away stealth & there's nothing to distinguish an F-22 or a F-35 from the other 4.5th Gen FAs , what to speak of the Su-57 or the J-20. I recall reading a senior general in the IDF predicting wat back in 2010-12 that stealth will no longer enjoy an advantage a decade later . Well here we are .

Besides China's already completed building the entire grid a few years ago . So what we're doing is nothing out of the ordinary. Of course having said that not many countries have accomplished this apart from Israel , China , Russia , the US & now India is on the way to deploying these capabilities. Not aware of any other country who're building / have built such capacities."

This is the paragraph followed by your tracking I another matter.
**YOU ARE NOT TAKING AWAY STEALTH BY BIULDING GIRD, MAKING IT RELATIVELY LESS EFFECTIVE BUT NOT TAKING IT AWAY, EVEN AFTER DECADE LATER STEALTH JETS STILL ENJOY GAME CHANGER LEVEL ADVANTAGE, DEFINITELY DEGRADATION COMPARED TO PREVIOID MASSIVE GAME CHANGING ADVANTAGE, BUT EVEN WITH RADAR GRID STEALTH STILL ENJOYS GAMING CHANGER LEVEL ADVANTAGE, THAT'S WHY EVERYONE IS DEVELOPING STEALTH SYSTEMS, WHETHER IT BE fa, bomber, stealthy missiles, loyal wingman, stealth flying wing etc
Just detecting them while knowing tracking is another matter you fuckin came to this fuckin conclusion.


And define all aspect stealth then?
Because modern stealth systems are designed to reduce radar signature, in L,S,C,X,Ku,and even vhf band
Plus they are also designed to reduce IR signature.

The only signature remained are acoustic( planes are not Submarines, don't need to reduce this signature) and visual( again they fly at 15-20km altitude)

So what aspect of all aspect stealth do 6th gen fighters focus that 5th gen doesn't focus?
These idiotic statements are the fucking problem and with how much confidence it was said

 

[RDXChauhan]

 

[darkflame]

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[Migflug]

USAF also tends towards hyperbole to increase their budget as do other arms of the US armed forces. It's a tactic they've learned & passed on since the Cold War .

Stealth itself is exaggerated. In the context of F-22 & F-35 it's VLO . That itself should tell you something about it . It's not ALL ASPECT Stealth . That's expected to come with the 6th Gen FA & later .

Even today civilian radars operating in L band can detect these "stealth " FA & so can the ordinary 4Gen & 5Gen Cellular phone towers using passive radars though this was purely unintentional. Tracking & generating a firing solution is another matter. That's where the next paragraph comes in to play.

Finally , you guys need to read up more on the radar network each of our armed forces have created & how they're interleaving those networks with civilian & weather radar systems networks along with cellphones network to create one hell of a grid , then add to this the fact we're importing the Voronezh LR radar systems from Russia besides recently deploying the first of our VHF radars to detect Stealth & then you may come to the conclusion that we've the capacities & capabilities to look beyond the borders deep into Tibet & Xinjiang & right across across our country.

Take away stealth & there's nothing to distinguish an F-22 or a F-35 from the other 4.5th Gen FAs , what to speak of the Su-57 or the J-20. I recall reading a senior general in the IDF predicting wat back in 2010-12 that stealth will no longer enjoy an advantage a decade later . Well here we are .

Besides China's already completed building the entire grid a few years ago . So what we're doing is nothing out of the ordinary. Of course having said that not many countries have accomplished this apart from Israel , China , Russia , the US & now India is on the way to deploying these capabilities. Not aware of any other country who're building / have built such capacities.



Please don't jump in between the movie & expect to understand what's happening. Also don't put your words in my mouth.

That's just your opinion. In the event we've contributed around 250 million USD to develop the FGFA & we haven't cancelled the contract yet , just said we're not going to partner with you anymore.

You're free to develop the FA the way you want & if you so please you can approach us to sell it. We'd evaluate it & if it suits our requirements things can proceed forward.

No matter how much better Rafale is it can not be better than Su 57. A Su 57MKI with Indian electronics would be far superior to the Rafale F4/F5. The biggest advantage 57 has is that it has an internal weapons bay, so no matter what, with only an air-to-air weapons load, it will have a lower RCS than Rafale.
While we all agree the Russians have been left behind in terms of electronics, but in the sheer hardware they are still better than everyone bar USA. Only money is stopping them from developing better hardware than China.
Also, the philosophy of Su57 is different from the F35/22, hence it doesn't have stealth like them, its optimized for maneuverability with VLO.
Now we can debate on the Opex of Russian hardware, why Rafale could be a better option for IAF, how Su57 is not a true 5h gen etc but calling Rafale in the same league as Su57 is a stretch.

 

[Migflug]

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[BON PLAN]

Did you see the program or did you just feel the need to troll ? Besides are we to assume the armee de l'air never ever committed any mistakes throughout its existence ?

It arrived we made a mistake or two.
But you, "les indiens", made absolutely all.

 

[BON PLAN]

A Su 57MKI with Indian electronics would be far superior to the Rafale F4/F5.

for sure.
You just have to fine tune it and produce it.
rendez vous in 2070 ?

 

[randombully]

for sure.
You just have to fine tune it and produce it.
rendez vous in 2070 ?

Ahem.
Azad seems to be highly sceptical of su57.
What do you think current su57 with alf41 vs future rafale f5.
Which has edge?

 

[Migflug]

for sure.
You just have to fine tune it and produce it.
rendez vous in 2070 ?

The Rafale due to its small nosecone will inherently have lower TRMs,
additionally small engines, hence lower power output, so eventually it will have a lower radar range than the Su57. While I do agree the Spectra is world-class, the L402 Himalayas electronic countermeasure suite is not bad either. And given the recent Indian advancements in avionics, I am confident that a Su 57 MKI will be better than Rafale.
However, there is a very good chance that we won't be buying Su57 !!

 

[BON PLAN]

The French members over in Strat Front claim the range of the meteor is close to 300 kms maybe more. Apparently their former president Hollande unintentionally revealed the range of the Meteor missile in his autobiography.

Now you can use your logic to guess what's the range of the RBE 2 radar. Once again just to remind you, kid, what you & I believe doesn't matter , it's what the IAF believes which matters & right now the IAF is enamoured by the Rafales not by the Su-57 .

Whether this love affair was worth it or a total waste will be known soon as will the performance of the J-16+ J-20 combo.

You can check with @BON PLAN

Meteor official range is : "NEZ >60km".
That may be 65km, 70km, 80 km, 100km ???

The NEZ range of a missile is a very limited one. Some datas about MICA say that NEZ is somewhere in the 15-20km range and max range nearly 70 to 80 (Taiwanese AF destroyed a air target in 1996 at 67 km, but was this target agile ??? ).
So for a powder missile, max range seems to be 3 to 4 times bigger than NEZ.
Is it the same for a stato missile ? I don't have the knowledge. But if so the max range can be extrapolate to 180 to 240 km mini.
300km ? possible, but with little kinetic energy at the end course, so potent for a slow moving target as tanker or Awacs, not for a fighter.

About the radar : RBE2AESA range is in the 200km range for a 1m² target (the double of PESA radar).
Next gen radar, in GaN, will have a greater range and more antistealth modes.

Hollande autobiography : I didn't read it as he was the worst president of the last 50 years... But I think he spoke about the SCALP range and non the Meteor one, but I'm not sure.

If all goes weel, I will have the opportunity to meet the last french air force General commander next 14th of July, in a very restricted framework. I will try to have some datas about Rafale F5, Spectra, GaN radar and may be Meteor ranges (NEZ and max one).

 

[BON PLAN]

Ahem.
Azad seems to be highly sceptical of su57.
What do you think current su57 with alf41 vs future rafale f5.
Which has edge?

Absolutely no idea.
I just have found the russian jets in general deceptfull in Ukraine. And since not a single sell, except Su57 in Algeria but probably inked before.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Rafale due to its small nosecone will inherently have lower TRMs,
additionally small engines, hence lower power output, so eventually it will have a lower radar range than the Su57. While I do agree the Spectra is world-class, the L402 Himalayas electronic countermeasure suite is not bad either. And given the recent Indian advancements in avionics, I am confident that a Su 57 MKI will be better than Rafale.
However, there is a very good chance that we won't be buying Su57 !!

Sole certainty : Su57 bird range > Rafale range.
For the rest we try to compare orange and strawberry. A heavy fighter and a light medium one.
Better to try to compare SCAF and Su-57.

 

[Migflug]

Sole certainty : Su57 bird range > Rafale range.
For the rest we try to compare orange and strawberry. A heavy fighter and a light medium one.
Better to try to compare SCAF and Su-57.

yes, both are of different weight classes, but the cost is the ultimate decider. And the Rafale is more costly than the Su57. So, from an ROI perspective, they are in the same league, hence the comparison.
FYI, given the high per-unit cost of Rafale & its weapons and the high opex of Su57, I am assuming the LTC won't be much different.