Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Azaad]

All rafale series have same airframe, with upgraded avionics.

That's the way they go about their iterations. It's their design philosophy. We put a plug or 2 & made some modifications in the Mk-1a & called it the LCA Mk-2 . The Russians pretty much preceded us in this aspect.

Su57( you wrote su37), is a different design all together.

No . Su-37.

Sukhoi Su-37 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just how does your brain work to come to these conclusions?

I'm wondering how does your brain work ? You seem to know everything you need to know such that you don't know what you don't know. That's a very rare quality. Suffice to say you're wasting your time here.

Your place is either in the government or the bureaucracy like the MoD or perhaps the IAF or if not that then DRDO / ADA & if not all that you should be hosting your own show like Alpha Defence or a blog like Trishul. Ever since Prasunda left us for a better place there's been a huge vaccum. Perhaps you could fill it up .

And russian don't Just spin it off, they also makes changes in airframe, that's why they all them new jet.
And avionics upgrade happen in their jets too.
The latest su35 is more advance avionics wise then early su35's.

Agreed but what's novel in what they do . OTOH the IAF believes the Russians do evergreening . Make some minor modifications in their TFs & call it a new TF giving it a new model number etc . Ditto for their FAs.

 

[Azaad]

The stage 2 won't make it more stealthy.
It will give it supercruise ability and better twr
As shown I'm the picture of production model, al41 engine of stage 1 has serrated nozzles.
So once again your stance is wrong

How will they make it more stealthy shape wise since the TF & super cruise is addressed so too are the serrated edges in the engine bay . Besides even with these modifications the Su-57 qualifies as LO not VLO. The Rafales are LO. Plus they've SPECTRA which the French claim imparts it with near stealth characteristics due to ACT . Do you see it as stealth ?

How am I wrong ?

 

[Azaad]

And what of those parameters made you think su57 is 4.5 Gen?

Man are you thick ? Right now you have the Su-57 Stage 1 which the Russians themselves claim is going to be superceded by the Stage 2. Why would there be a need for a Stage 2 if all design parameters have been fulfilled ?

VKS has ordered only 75 nos of which barely 30 nos have been delivered with no news whatsoever of any further deliveries since late 2023 because presumably the Stage 2 is undergoing intensive testing.

Let the definitive version come out in its final form & only then can one form an opinion.

It has sensor fusion, iwb, advance electronics,LPI radar( infact 2 smaller side radars too) surface shaping and ram( which combined gives it "frontal spherical median rcs" of about 0.01-0.025m2, for comparison j20 is 0.003-0.006m2, f35 is 0.0005-0.001m2) which allow it barely be in vlo category( rcs<0.05m2).

 

[Azaad]

F22 is the most outdated 5th gen out there.
It has very good stealth and kinematics.
But avionics wise it's the most outdated one, plus no advance sensor fusion, no EOTS, DAS, no network Centric capabilities.
That's why there were talks of retiring it by 2030 in USAF, though now they are for upgrading a significant no. With f35 avionics.

Right. So the definition of Stealth is subjective. Stick to LO & VLO then instead of 5th Gen Stealth & 6th Gen stealth & qualify it with why x is LO according to you .

 

[Azaad]

Civilian radars scattering simulations have mapped all three.
Their Conclusions were ,x band, median spherical front rcs.
Su57=0.01-0.025m2
J20=0.003-0.006m2
F35=0.0005-0.001m2

Civilian radars have mapped all 3 when the J-20 barely made an international appearance ? There are speculations & then there are idle speculations. The former's permissible not the latter. In any case I don't indulge in them.

 

[Azaad]

Ngad And F/A xx are also designed to be "bigger" " better suited for supercruise" "more range" and " endurance" for pacific " bigger iwb"
" more electrical power from bigger engines" .

So , no stealth aka no LO or VLO ? Take a stand , don't keep shifting goal posts.

 

[Azaad]

Coordinating with cca is one thing.
Completely integrating as part of large system made of many other aircraft is another.
( words Said to me by that guy, I still don't know what Completely integrating means here)

LCA Mk-2 is supposed to BE the entire system of systems. Check out the HAL slide depicting CATS Warrior , Hunter , Alpha , Infinity & God knows what else. And last checked Mk-2 was still a 4.5 Gen ++ FA

 

[Hari Sud]

My question to highly qualified and experienced analysts is that:

- can we dump MRFA program
- instead buy buy two more squadrons of Rafale
- buy two squadrons of F-35
- balance strength is made up by LCA1 and 2.
- AMCA development take its own time
- let Safran or RR Develop AMCA engine.

Buying F35 will make America happy and speed up GE 404 and 414 engines delivery.

What do you think guys? I am a layman just making political and commercial suggestion to evaluate.

 

[randombully]

Well then how would you define 6th Gen?

6th gen is more about future emerging technologies than an fighter jet.
Like how you can put all existing 5th gen tech in 4th gen aircraft except stealth.
In 5th gen stealth is already there, now you can design your 6th gen jet to be somewhat more stealth optimised that 5th gen
But stealth is not a defining trait of 6th gen, heck it's not even main trait over 5th gen.

Defining traits that we right now know are.

Mumt( could be put in 4th and 5th gen too(same))
Optionally manned( same)
AI assist( same)
DEW( not confirmed, could be put in "larger" 5th gen and 4th gen with enough power).
Variable cycle engine( same)
Fly by light/optoc( extensive modification but doable, also f35 is already kind of fly by optic, no idea about j20 or su57 if they have fly by optics in lots of areas)
NG high capacity network( designed to process large of information extremely quickly, can be put on both 4th and 5th gen, but will require extensive modification),
Much higher and efficient cooling( hard to put in small to medium fighters like f35)
And we're biulding new airframe for 6th gen, newer and more advance composites can be developed and used.

another thing is 6th gen future aircrafts are all "larger" in size wether it be recently flown chinede j36 and j50( smaller than j36 but still su57 zise), us NGAD, UK tempest.
Though French one seems to be relatively medium size due to carrier compatibility.
Large size means, more range, endurance, more powerful avionics, much better cooling, bigger iwb.
But again f15 eagle compared to f16 also have higher range, higher endurance, more powerful radar and other avionics, much better avionics cooling, but both are considered same gen.

And here's thread about j36 defining his 6th gen.
He basically said, all the things I mentioned alonh with a large size.

View: https://x.com/Hurin92/status/1874139288407072779

 

[randombully]

My "Stupidity & over confidence" ? You were the one who negated the classified briefing GoI & it's various bodies were supposed to receive from DoD & LM offering to brief them instead.

What classified? I told you I can give you a briefing based on all the public available data and educated guess by people who work in this field.
Your the one stupid ass who put classified on it and now using to counter the truth about you lying.

 

[randombully]

So you mean you're the last word on stealth the various capabilities of the F-35 , J-20 , Su-57 etc . That if anyone has an alternative opinion he's either lying or he's ignorant.

No, but better than your words.
Don't know about others But you definitely are lying and ignorant both.

 

[randombully]

That's your opinion.

No.
It having RAM all round is not my opinion.
Its surfaces, wings, tails etc designed in a way to have no 90° angles and designed in a way to scatter radar waves away from the sender direction is not my opinion

 

[randombully]

How will they make it more stealthy shape wise since the TF & super cruise is addressed so too are the serrated edges in the engine bay . Besides even with these modifications the Su-57 qualifies as LO not VLO. The Rafales are LO. Plus they've SPECTRA which the French claim imparts it with near stealth characteristics due to ACT . Do you see it as stealth ?

How am I wrong ?

What is the definition of vlo and lo according to you?
At what rcs does vlo start according to you?
Not to mention su57 having iwb while rafale carrying external weapons.

But again based on what I know.
Frontal median spherical rcs in x band.
Rafale, SH blk3,tejas mk2= 0.1-0.2m2( clean without payload)
As said before I consider rcs of 0.5m2 and lower as LO.
And consider rcs of 0.05m2 and lower as vlo.
Su57= 0.01-0.03 m2
J20=0.003-0.006 m2
F35=0.0005-0.001 m2

 

[randombully]

LCA Mk-2 is supposed to BE the entire system of systems. Check out the HAL slide depicting CATS Warrior , Hunter , Alpha , Infinity & God knows what else. And last checked Mk-2 was still a 4.5 Gen ++ FA
View attachment 26866

Much better to just use "non stealth jet" here.
In future many more upgrades for tejas mk2 and other jets will come.
We can't just continue adding more ++.
Like 4.5+++++ etc jet
But again, as you said, it can integrate quite well with cca and coordinate as one system.
Though again, it's unclear what "complete" integration mean here.

 

[randombully]

Civilian radars have mapped all 3 when the J-20 barely made an international appearance ? There are speculations & then there are idle speculations. The former's permissible not the latter. In any case I don't indulge in them.

What international appearances?
It's made by using radar scattering on the 3 models of all these jets( they even modeled inside of ducts, like radar blockers inside su57, so very detailed models).
Then they applied ram with 90% radar absorption In simulation of all three and simulated L, S, X and VHF band.
They only simulated frontal rcs.
And these no. Came out for simpler understanding.

 

[randombully]

So , no stealth aka no LO or VLO ? Take a stand , don't keep shifting goal posts.

When did I say no stealth?
You asked why us is going for ngad if they can upgrade f35 to 6th gen.
I told the reason ngad be "larger" "more range" "more endurace"
" bigger iwb" " more power generation for avionics" "more power for future DEW"
All these that f35 doesn't have due to its size and will not have in future even it gets upgrades with 6th gen tech.
Also as mentioned before some did question whether f35 be "completely" brought yo 6th gen standard.

 

[Azaad]

6th gen is more about future emerging technologies than an fighter jet.
Like how you can put all existing 5th gen tech in 4th gen aircraft except stealth.
In 5th gen stealth is already there, now you can design your 6th gen jet to be somewhat more stealth optimised that 5th gen
But stealth is not a defining trait of 6th gen, heck it's not even main trait over 5th gen.

Defining traits that we right now know are.

Mumt( could be put in 4th and 5th gen too(same))
Optionally manned( same)
AI assist( same)
DEW( not confirmed, could be put in "larger" 5th gen and 4th gen with enough power).
Variable cycle engine( same)
Fly by light/optoc( extensive modification but doable, also f35 is already kind of fly by optic, no idea about j20 or su57 if they have fly by optics in lots of areas)
NG high capacity network( designed to process large of information extremely quickly, can be put on both 4th and 5th gen, but will require extensive modification),
Much higher and efficient cooling( hard to put in small to medium fighters like f35)
And we're biulding new airframe for 6th gen, newer and more advance composites can be developed and used.

another thing is 6th gen future aircrafts are all "larger" in size wether it be recently flown chinede j36 and j50( smaller than j36 but still su57 zise), us NGAD, UK tempest.
Though French one seems to be relatively medium size due to carrier compatibility.
Large size means, more range, endurance, more powerful avionics, much better cooling, bigger iwb.
But again f15 eagle compared to f16 also have higher range, higher endurance, more powerful radar and other avionics, much better avionics cooling, but both are considered same gen.

Regarding everything else you've put out as defining stealth characteristics , I'd add all aspect stealth to it & active stealth as well since RAM & RAS are about stealth shaping which is characterized as passive stealth.

As time goes by these definitions will change depending on which country we're talking about. Plus new tech being developed which isn't in the public domain will feature in either the initial models of those 6th Gen FAs or subsequent iterations.

And here's thread about j36 defining his 6th gen.
He basically said, all the things I mentioned alonh with a large size.

View: https://x.com/Hurin92/status/1874139288407072779

I'm least interested in what Wumaos say or how they qualify stealth.

 

[Azaad]

What classified? I told you I can give you a briefing based on all the public available data and educated guess by people who work in this field.
Your the one stupid ass who put classified on it and now using to counter the truth about you lying.

If you aren't aware there's such a thing as classified briefings offered by the OEM & DoD / Pentagon on the F-35 to prospective customers which if I'm not mistaken also needs Congressional approval. Plus there are levels to these classified briefings .

Why the hell would they brief me & why the hell would you offer to educate me on these systems ? In any case what makes you think I even see you as some sort of resident authority on these systems ?

Respect is earned not demanded or requested. It's commanded.

 

[Azaad]

No, but better than your words.
Don't know about others But you definitely are lying and ignorant both.

You calk me liar the next time without any evidence whatsoever & by God you'd get it . Don't try my patience & mistake my tolerance for weakness or patience for taciturnity.

 

[Azaad]

No.
It having RAM all round is not my opinion.
Its surfaces, wings, tails etc designed in a way to have no 90° angles and designed in a way to scatter radar waves away from the sender direction is not my opinion

My apologies . I mistook you saying that the Stealth features of the J-20 is of an order magnitude greater in all stealth fighters & not non stealth fighters as you put it .