Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[randombully]

My categorisation was based on the normal parameters used to classify a 5th Gen FA namely stealth characteristics like surface shaping , RAM coating , RAS , super cruise , advanced avionics , sensor fusion , LPI radar , IWB etc .

And what of those parameters made you think su57 is 4.5 Gen?
It has sensor fusion, iwb, advance electronics,LPI radar( infact 2 smaller side radars too) surface shaping and ram( which combined gives it "frontal spherical median rcs" of about 0.01-0.025m2, for comparison j20 is 0.003-0.006m2, f35 is 0.0005-0.001m2) which allow it barely be in vlo category( rcs<0.05m2).

 

[Azaad]

The lack of vertical tail will mean "better stealth" in that area not "all aspect stealth".

Yes , assuming all other areas are similarly treated they'd be considered all aspect stealth. But a vertical stabilizer , canards etc generate a huge spike on radars compared to other surfaces. Hence 5th Gen though VLO in certain not all FAs is not all aspect stealth.

The literal proof of all aspect stealth is the B-2 & it entered service around the same time as the F-22 if not earlier.

J20 from "all angles"is magnitudes stealthier than any non stealth jet.
It's designed to reduce rcs in "all angles"

That's your opinion.

So stop modifying the definition of "all aspects".
Having a tail less flying delta wing being relatively more stealthier, doesn't mean one with slanted vertical tail is not stealth.

I've given you an example of what I think or rather what informed commentators think is all aspect stealth above . It's called the B-2.

 

[randombully]

However each & every FA in this category don't qualify for that term except F-22

F22 is the most outdated 5th gen out there.
It has very good stealth and kinematics.
But avionics wise it's the most outdated one, plus no advance sensor fusion, no EOTS, DAS, no network Centric capabilities.
That's why there were talks of retiring it by 2030 in USAF, though now they are for upgrading a significant no. With f35 avionics.

 

[Azaad]

No, from the back where their engines their rcs will still higher relative to front, side, top, down .
Their ir signature will also by highesr there.

It's Work in Progress - WiP.

 

[Azaad]

Such as?
Find me any rcs simulation which has opposite reading?
Because all I've seen came to almost similar no.

Search harder - use key words like RCS readings disproving F-35 is stealth or RCS readings disproving J-20 is stealth & so on ...

 

[randombully]

J-20 probably does in spite of its canards though it's not yet been mapped for its RCS .

Civilian radars scattering simulations have mapped all three.
Their Conclusions were ,x band, median spherical front rcs.
Su57=0.01-0.025m2
J20=0.003-0.006m2
F35=0.0005-0.001m2

 

[Azaad]

If you go back in the thread you will also find your words "su35 is multirole not omni role"
And looks like you couldn't stand by your false words "no russian jet is omni role" su 57 may be.

Don't behave like a prick. I also later admitted I stand corrected. In any case the Su-35 is not of the same vintage as the Rafales or the Eurofighter or the Gripen . Su -30 is .

The Su-35 was conceived in the late 1990s , early 2000s by which time the program objectives of those Eurocanards & the progress those programs made would've been obvious to the Russians.

They'd have made suitable modifications to their own programs accordingly.

 

[randombully]

In that case what's the NGAD program all about or the F/A-XX program all about ?

Ngad And F/A xx are also designed to be "bigger" " better suited for supercruise" "more range" and " endurance" for pacific " bigger iwb"
" more electrical power from bigger engines" .

 

[Azaad]

All the lies you said Would be less embarrassing if you were actually born yesterday.

What lies ? Quote me here the exact lies according to you I've stated.

 

[randombully]

If 4.5th Gen FAs are coming up with CCAs why wouldn't 5th Gen not have CCAs ? Is that a qualifier. It's subjective

Coordinating with cca is one thing.
Completely integrating as part of large system made of many other aircraft is another.
( words Said to me by that guy, I still don't know what Completely integrating means here)

 

[Azaad]

Su 30?
30?

Su-27 > Su-30 > Su-33 > Su-34 > Su-35 with Su-27 being the principal model birthing all those iterations.

 

[Azaad]

All rafale series have same airframe, with upgraded avionics.

That's the way they go about their iterations. It's their design philosophy. We put a plug or 2 & made some modifications in the Mk-1a & called it the LCA Mk-2 . The Russians pretty much preceded us in this aspect.

Su57( you wrote su37), is a different design all together.

No . Su-37.

Sukhoi Su-37 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just how does your brain work to come to these conclusions?

I'm wondering how does your brain work ? You seem to know everything you need to know such that you don't know what you don't know. That's a very rare quality. Suffice to say you're wasting your time here.

Your place is either in the government or the bureaucracy like the MoD or perhaps the IAF or if not that then DRDO / ADA & if not all that you should be hosting your own show like Alpha Defence or a blog like Trishul. Ever since Prasunda left us for a better place there's been a huge vaccum. Perhaps you could fill it up .

And russian don't Just spin it off, they also makes changes in airframe, that's why they all them new jet.
And avionics upgrade happen in their jets too.
The latest su35 is more advance avionics wise then early su35's.

Agreed but what's novel in what they do . OTOH the IAF believes the Russians do evergreening . Make some minor modifications in their TFs & call it a new TF giving it a new model number etc . Ditto for their FAs.

 

[Azaad]

The stage 2 won't make it more stealthy.
It will give it supercruise ability and better twr
As shown I'm the picture of production model, al41 engine of stage 1 has serrated nozzles.
So once again your stance is wrong

How will they make it more stealthy shape wise since the TF & super cruise is addressed so too are the serrated edges in the engine bay . Besides even with these modifications the Su-57 qualifies as LO not VLO. The Rafales are LO. Plus they've SPECTRA which the French claim imparts it with near stealth characteristics due to ACT . Do you see it as stealth ?

How am I wrong ?

 

[Azaad]

And what of those parameters made you think su57 is 4.5 Gen?

Man are you thick ? Right now you have the Su-57 Stage 1 which the Russians themselves claim is going to be superceded by the Stage 2. Why would there be a need for a Stage 2 if all design parameters have been fulfilled ?

VKS has ordered only 75 nos of which barely 30 nos have been delivered with no news whatsoever of any further deliveries since late 2023 because presumably the Stage 2 is undergoing intensive testing.

Let the definitive version come out in its final form & only then can one form an opinion.

It has sensor fusion, iwb, advance electronics,LPI radar( infact 2 smaller side radars too) surface shaping and ram( which combined gives it "frontal spherical median rcs" of about 0.01-0.025m2, for comparison j20 is 0.003-0.006m2, f35 is 0.0005-0.001m2) which allow it barely be in vlo category( rcs<0.05m2).

 

[Azaad]

F22 is the most outdated 5th gen out there.
It has very good stealth and kinematics.
But avionics wise it's the most outdated one, plus no advance sensor fusion, no EOTS, DAS, no network Centric capabilities.
That's why there were talks of retiring it by 2030 in USAF, though now they are for upgrading a significant no. With f35 avionics.

Right. So the definition of Stealth is subjective. Stick to LO & VLO then instead of 5th Gen Stealth & 6th Gen stealth & qualify it with why x is LO according to you .

 

[Azaad]

Civilian radars scattering simulations have mapped all three.
Their Conclusions were ,x band, median spherical front rcs.
Su57=0.01-0.025m2
J20=0.003-0.006m2
F35=0.0005-0.001m2

Civilian radars have mapped all 3 when the J-20 barely made an international appearance ? There are speculations & then there are idle speculations. The former's permissible not the latter. In any case I don't indulge in them.

 

[Azaad]

Ngad And F/A xx are also designed to be "bigger" " better suited for supercruise" "more range" and " endurance" for pacific " bigger iwb"
" more electrical power from bigger engines" .

So , no stealth aka no LO or VLO ? Take a stand , don't keep shifting goal posts.

 

[Azaad]

Coordinating with cca is one thing.
Completely integrating as part of large system made of many other aircraft is another.
( words Said to me by that guy, I still don't know what Completely integrating means here)

LCA Mk-2 is supposed to BE the entire system of systems. Check out the HAL slide depicting CATS Warrior , Hunter , Alpha , Infinity & God knows what else. And last checked Mk-2 was still a 4.5 Gen ++ FA

 

[Hari Sud]

My question to highly qualified and experienced analysts is that:

- can we dump MRFA program
- instead buy buy two more squadrons of Rafale
- buy two squadrons of F-35
- balance strength is made up by LCA1 and 2.
- AMCA development take its own time
- let Safran or RR Develop AMCA engine.

Buying F35 will make America happy and speed up GE 404 and 414 engines delivery.

What do you think guys? I am a layman just making political and commercial suggestion to evaluate.

 

[randombully]

Well then how would you define 6th Gen?

6th gen is more about future emerging technologies than an fighter jet.
Like how you can put all existing 5th gen tech in 4th gen aircraft except stealth.
In 5th gen stealth is already there, now you can design your 6th gen jet to be somewhat more stealth optimised that 5th gen
But stealth is not a defining trait of 6th gen, heck it's not even main trait over 5th gen.

Defining traits that we right now know are.

Mumt( could be put in 4th and 5th gen too(same))
Optionally manned( same)
AI assist( same)
DEW( not confirmed, could be put in "larger" 5th gen and 4th gen with enough power).
Variable cycle engine( same)
Fly by light/optoc( extensive modification but doable, also f35 is already kind of fly by optic, no idea about j20 or su57 if they have fly by optics in lots of areas)
NG high capacity network( designed to process large of information extremely quickly, can be put on both 4th and 5th gen, but will require extensive modification),
Much higher and efficient cooling( hard to put in small to medium fighters like f35)
And we're biulding new airframe for 6th gen, newer and more advance composites can be developed and used.

another thing is 6th gen future aircrafts are all "larger" in size wether it be recently flown chinede j36 and j50( smaller than j36 but still su57 zise), us NGAD, UK tempest.
Though French one seems to be relatively medium size due to carrier compatibility.
Large size means, more range, endurance, more powerful avionics, much better cooling, bigger iwb.
But again f15 eagle compared to f16 also have higher range, higher endurance, more powerful radar and other avionics, much better avionics cooling, but both are considered same gen.

And here's thread about j36 defining his 6th gen.
He basically said, all the things I mentioned alonh with a large size.

View: https://x.com/Hurin92/status/1874139288407072779