Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[GodEmperorDoom]

Mods clean up the thread.

 

[Azaad]

Not same generation=/= not same capabilities.
I'd you think rafale provides same capabilities as su57, your fucking retarded.
I don't even wanna know how you think these ways.

Actually the Rafale & the Su-30 do belong to the same generation. Check out the development path of the Rafales. The first Rafales to be inducted were the Rafale M.

When the Rafale C was inducted it had only Air to Air capabilities no AESA radar etc. That came through with successive upgrade packages with the prefix F . Hence F1 , F2 , F3 & so on . Within these upgrade packages specific capabilities were addressed .

Hence the version we got was the F3R. They've planned out these packages to F7 with R6 to come at the end of the 2030s or early 2040s.

The Russians usually spin it off into a new FA series. All their Su-30 family ( Su-33 , Su-34 , Su-35 , Su-37 ) is essentially derived from Su-27 . That's the way they approach this subject.

 

[randombully]

Actually the Rafale & the Su-30 do belong to the same generation. Check out the development path of the Rafales. The first Rafales to be inducted were the Rafale M.

When the Rafale C was inducted it had only Air to Air capabilities no AESA radar etc. That came through with successive upgrade packages with the prefix F . Hence F1 , F2 , F3 & so on . Within these upgrade packages specific capabilities were addressed .

Hence the version we got was the F3R. They've planned out these packages to F7 with R6 to come at the end of the 2030s or early 2040s.

The Russians usually spin it off into a new FA series. All their Su-30 family ( Su-33 , Su-34 , Su-35 , Su-37 ) is essentially derived from Su-27 . That's the way they approach this subject.

Su 30?
30?

 

[randombully]

Actually the Rafale & the Su-30 do belong to the same generation. Check out the development path of the Rafales. The first Rafales to be inducted were the Rafale M.

When the Rafale C was inducted it had only Air to Air capabilities no AESA radar etc. That came through with successive upgrade packages with the prefix F . Hence F1 , F2 , F3 & so on . Within these upgrade packages specific capabilities were addressed .

Hence the version we got was the F3R. They've planned out these packages to F7 with R6 to come at the end of the 2030s or early 2040s.

The Russians usually spin it off into a new FA series. All their Su-30 family ( Su-33 , Su-34 , Su-35 , Su-37 ) is essentially derived from Su-27 . That's the way they approach this subject.

All rafale series have same airframe, with upgraded avionics.
Su57( you wrote su37), is a different design all together.
Just how does your brain work to come to these conclusions?
And russian don't Just spin it off, they also makes changes in airframe, that's why they all them new jet.
And avionics upgrade happen in their jets too.
The latest su35 is more advance avionics wise then early su35's.

 

[Azaad]

Go read your words in this same thread.
You called su57 "4.5 gen" multiple times.

Yes I still maintain my stance. The Su-57 Stage 1 to be precise is possibly the best 4.5 Gen ++ / 4.75 Gen + FA , quasi 5th Gen FA there is in the world today.

What the Su-57 Stage 2 will be , we've to wait & see.

Where was your proof?

My categorisation was based on the normal parameters used to classify a 5th Gen FA namely stealth characteristics like surface shaping , RAM coating , RAS , super cruise , advanced avionics , sensor fusion , LPI radar , IWB etc .

However each & every FA in this category don't qualify for that term except F-22. Having got that out of the way , F-35 qualifies even if it doesn't have Super Cruise. J-20 probably does in spite of its canards though it's not yet been mapped for its RCS .

Su-57 by the Russians own admission doesn't, as they didn't compromise on its aerodynamic features to accomodate stealth features.

You said rafale struggled against f35, but will not against j20 because it's chinese.

The Rafales will definitely struggle against the F-35 , IMO. However I never mentioned the Rafales will score against the J-20 . Please quote me where did I say it will not struggle against the J-20.

I said the IAF doesn't consider either the J-20 or the Su-57 stealthy FAs. The IAF has gone on record to state the J-20 isn't stealth on multiple occasions. However they haven't been as vocal about the Su-57.

I've also said if there has been any changes in their thought process the IAF certainly hasn't voiced it .

What you didn't say was "any proof or reasonable explanation why j20 will be as good as f35 or good enough that rafale will struggle against it too?
You didn't ask proof, you denied it because it was "chinese".

That's your reading of it & this is the problem with you . You don't read the entire post thoroughly , you have pre conceived notions & then you cherry pick sentences out of context you think fit your pre conceived notions best .

If you're claiming the J-20 is as good as the F-35 that's your view not mine. The J-20 was designed as an analogue to the F-22. It's hardly as stealthy as the F-22 by any metric.

Why didn't you offer proof then ?

 

[Azaad]

Which commentators?
Any links?
Posts?

It's funny how you ask me for evidence but provide none yourself. Check out the LM website for their definition of stealth or VLO vis a vis the F-22 or the F-35.

Because all the experienced commentators I saw are saying.
" mumt"
"DEW"
" system of systems"
" unmanned AI driven jets"
" ACE"

Would that be for 5th Gen or 6th Gen ?

Some "experienced" commentators believe all these upgrades are applicable In 5th gen to and 5th gen can be upgraded to 6th gen( same airframe)

Doesn't look like it . Can the F-22 be upgraded to 6th Gen or the F-35 ? In that case what's the NGAD program all about or the F/A-XX program all about ?

While other critique by saying power generation and Architecture that is not designed to act as a completely integrated part of a larger system made up of many other planss can be limits that will 5th gen from "completely" upgrading into 6th gen (nothing about lack of all aspects stealth)

If 4.5th Gen FAs are coming up with CCAs why wouldn't 5th Gen not have CCAs ? Is that a qualifier. It's subjective. In any case with practically every AF coming up with CCAs to team up with their primary FAs be it 4th or 5th Gen , I doubt this'd be a disqualifier.

Go and tell those experienced commentators about 5th gen not having all aspect stealth but being front focused, they will laugh at your retarded ass.

Well then how would you define 6th Gen ?

 

[Azaad]

My comment was opposition again throwing allegations of corruption if direct g2g happened.
Not about what action goi takes.

That's what the opposition is supposed to do . To keep the government on its toes. It's for the government to be firm in its decision not to be cowed by needless opposition & their tactics be it allegations or smear campaigns or anything thrown their way.

 

[Azaad]

your stupidity and overconfidence causes you put out these "balantly false" statements without any knowledge.
Like it works in political discussion, ideological, geopolitical

My "Stupidity & over confidence" ? You were the one who negated the classified briefing GoI & it's various bodies were supposed to receive from DoD & LM offering to brief them instead.

But not in factual ones like capabilities of jets and systems.

So you mean you're the last word on stealth the various capabilities of the F-35 , J-20 , Su-57 etc . That if anyone has an alternative opinion he's either lying or he's ignorant.

Not abusive it's the truth.
unlike the lie about antennas In EODAS, I still crack at that.

I wonder if it was more hilarious than your offering to brief the GoI on the F-35.

 

[randombully]

Yes I still maintain my stance. The Su-57 Stage 1 to be precise is possibly the best 4.5 Gen ++ / 4.75 Gen + FA , quasi 5th Gen FA there is in the world today.

What the Su-57 Stage 2 will be , we've to wait & see

The stage 2 won't make it more stealthy.
It will give it supercruise ability and better twr
As shown I'm the picture of production model, al41 engine of stage 1 has serrated nozzles.
So once again your stance is wrong

 

[randombully]

My categorisation was based on the normal parameters used to classify a 5th Gen FA namely stealth characteristics like surface shaping , RAM coating , RAS , super cruise , advanced avionics , sensor fusion , LPI radar , IWB etc .

And what of those parameters made you think su57 is 4.5 Gen?
It has sensor fusion, iwb, advance electronics,LPI radar( infact 2 smaller side radars too) surface shaping and ram( which combined gives it "frontal spherical median rcs" of about 0.01-0.025m2, for comparison j20 is 0.003-0.006m2, f35 is 0.0005-0.001m2) which allow it barely be in vlo category( rcs<0.05m2).

 

[Azaad]

The lack of vertical tail will mean "better stealth" in that area not "all aspect stealth".

Yes , assuming all other areas are similarly treated they'd be considered all aspect stealth. But a vertical stabilizer , canards etc generate a huge spike on radars compared to other surfaces. Hence 5th Gen though VLO in certain not all FAs is not all aspect stealth.

The literal proof of all aspect stealth is the B-2 & it entered service around the same time as the F-22 if not earlier.

J20 from "all angles"is magnitudes stealthier than any non stealth jet.
It's designed to reduce rcs in "all angles"

That's your opinion.

So stop modifying the definition of "all aspects".
Having a tail less flying delta wing being relatively more stealthier, doesn't mean one with slanted vertical tail is not stealth.

I've given you an example of what I think or rather what informed commentators think is all aspect stealth above . It's called the B-2.

 

[randombully]

However each & every FA in this category don't qualify for that term except F-22

F22 is the most outdated 5th gen out there.
It has very good stealth and kinematics.
But avionics wise it's the most outdated one, plus no advance sensor fusion, no EOTS, DAS, no network Centric capabilities.
That's why there were talks of retiring it by 2030 in USAF, though now they are for upgrading a significant no. With f35 avionics.

 

[Azaad]

No, from the back where their engines their rcs will still higher relative to front, side, top, down .
Their ir signature will also by highesr there.

It's Work in Progress - WiP.

 

[Azaad]

Such as?
Find me any rcs simulation which has opposite reading?
Because all I've seen came to almost similar no.

Search harder - use key words like RCS readings disproving F-35 is stealth or RCS readings disproving J-20 is stealth & so on ...

 

[randombully]

J-20 probably does in spite of its canards though it's not yet been mapped for its RCS .

Civilian radars scattering simulations have mapped all three.
Their Conclusions were ,x band, median spherical front rcs.
Su57=0.01-0.025m2
J20=0.003-0.006m2
F35=0.0005-0.001m2

 

[Azaad]

If you go back in the thread you will also find your words "su35 is multirole not omni role"
And looks like you couldn't stand by your false words "no russian jet is omni role" su 57 may be.

Don't behave like a prick. I also later admitted I stand corrected. In any case the Su-35 is not of the same vintage as the Rafales or the Eurofighter or the Gripen . Su -30 is .

The Su-35 was conceived in the late 1990s , early 2000s by which time the program objectives of those Eurocanards & the progress those programs made would've been obvious to the Russians.

They'd have made suitable modifications to their own programs accordingly.

 

[randombully]

In that case what's the NGAD program all about or the F/A-XX program all about ?

Ngad And F/A xx are also designed to be "bigger" " better suited for supercruise" "more range" and " endurance" for pacific " bigger iwb"
" more electrical power from bigger engines" .

 

[Azaad]

All the lies you said Would be less embarrassing if you were actually born yesterday.

What lies ? Quote me here the exact lies according to you I've stated.

 

[randombully]

If 4.5th Gen FAs are coming up with CCAs why wouldn't 5th Gen not have CCAs ? Is that a qualifier. It's subjective

Coordinating with cca is one thing.
Completely integrating as part of large system made of many other aircraft is another.
( words Said to me by that guy, I still don't know what Completely integrating means here)

 

[Azaad]

Su 30?
30?

Su-27 > Su-30 > Su-33 > Su-34 > Su-35 with Su-27 being the principal model birthing all those iterations.