Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Fatalis]

F-15 selection is idiotic. We already have its competitor SU-30mki.we can extend the order. The engine have shorter working hours. But still we have our own avionics and weapons integrated.

MMRCA supposed to complete by 2012. But it delayed to the point does do we really need an Rafale when AMCA around the corner. ( We can call delay, but there is clear sign that files were holding up by Mod Babus).

MWF is required since it will be go to plane due to ease of maintenance.








We have few F414 engines for testing.

It doesn't matter. It's an open competition so Boeing can participate with their F-15EX if they want as that is their only offering because the production of F/A-18E/F will be over soon.

Even if they participate, they won't win the tenders because of well reasons obviously.

 

[Fatalis]

F-16 - IAF will never procure it.
F/A-18E - Not being offered now
F-15EX - No to very low chances of winning
Gripen - Again not a chance as our Mk-2 is better than it.
Mig-35 - IAF is not going the Russian route
Typhoon - Too many approvals from different countries
Su-57 - Very low chances to procure

It only leaves Rafale as a finalist (and even though it is just my gut feeling but now it looks like 114 MRFA will indeed come).

 

[Migflug]

It's high time we better go for our weapons with rafale there is no need to purchase even single french weapon. And if this can't happen and french wont allow us using our mc, weapons then there is much better another option su57 which will cost as it costed in 36 rafale g2g deal.

They are so desperate they have opened all cards they literally offered integration of Indian avionics suit AMCAnised su57 . Which is itself much better than overall rafale.

Su57 with super sukhoi upgrade ew avionics suit would be much better choice for iaf as it wouldn't cost and arm and leg. There would be no need for importing expensive weapons this would drag down cost and would be much more sensible choice than that expensive rafale. Same mission computer as su30upg. so there wouldn't be much software level work instead integration of weapons in iwb of su57. The super sukhoi cost will be brought down as well. This is low hanging fruit as already existing su30 manufacturing plant with little modification can roll out su57s. Russians are so desperate they're offering are now making much more sense than it would before.

Brethen things have changed since then today russians are much desperate to sell su57.
First thing they have already offered Indigeneous sub systems integration. They have clearly stated in aero india 'AMCAnised' su57. If not AMCAnised Even super sukhoi su57 would work. It doesn't matter how shitty russian electronics are if they have allowed us to integrate our systems.

Cherry on top. If this wasn't enough they recently they offered to roll out su57s from nasik with few changes in plant.

Best choice instead of expensive not so future proof rafale would be su57 with super sukhoi. To make rafale future proof you will have to again pay an arm and leg let's not forget how much they charged for mirage upgrade where not even aesa radars were offered.

We can have our Radar absorbing structure along with RAM on it. To reduce its rcs.
Next thing all ew, avionics suit, mc can be indigeneous.
Borrow from super sukhoi.

Recently data patterns unveiled there next iteration of virupaksha radar which had 2700 gan tr modules. Imagine su57 with those powerfull electric output engines we will have huge leap in capability. We can also do quite experiment like adding our eots on it.

And coming to indigeneous weapons integration they had offered it much before all above offers mentioned. While Integration will take take time Which can be done in service.

Su57 have now become much more better option than rafale. It's makes much more sense than expensive rafale. It won't cost much.

We are in very good position to leverage. They have given up all there cards to brings us onboard.
What do you think @BON PLAN where does rafale stand against an AMCAnised su57 as an option?

Agreed, even a vanilla SU57 is better than Rafale and an MKIed 57 would be far better. If we play our hands right, we might get good know-how of the Russian engine with this deal(far better than farce ToT of Su30). The only reason we might buy Rafale over 57 MKI would be not to upset the West.

 

[ezsasa]

F-15 selection is idiotic. We already have its competitor SU-30mki.we can extend the order. The engine have shorter working hours. But still we have our own avionics and weapons integrated.

MMRCA supposed to complete by 2012. But it delayed to the point does do we really need an Rafale when AMCA around the corner. ( We can call delay, but there is clear sign that files were holding up by Mod Babus).

MWF is required since it will be go to plane due to ease of maintenance.








We have few F414 engines for testing.

which files are being held up by mod babus ?

 

[Binayak95]

only rafale fits the bill for 114 MRFA, IAF does not seem to have the institutional maturity to close any other deal with in this 5-10 year timeframe. if news comes out by next year that IAF is planning to conduct trials for F-15 and then take final call, we can take it as IAF is not serious about this project.

there is no way muricans will agree for India specific mods and integration of desi weapon systems on F-15. even if boeing agrees, their congress will block the deal. unnecessary headache.

Just saying, you'll be surprised at how much cooperative US firms have become. Their is serious talk of manufacturing MQ9s here.

F15EX and F35, especially. are top contenders for induction, thanks to very low pricing compared to Rafales. Heck, new F15EXs will cost us less than new build Su30MKIs.

And GE has been persuaded, lets say, to deliver 1 engine a month this year and 20 a year from next year.

 

[Binayak95]

Agreed, even a vanilla SU57 is better than Rafale and an MKIed 57 would be far better. If we play our hands right, we might get good know-how of the Russian engine with this deal(far better than farce ToT of Su30). The only reason we might buy Rafale over 57 MKI would be not to upset the West.

The SU57 is a joke of a plane.

Its not stealthy, it's radars, EW and weapons package is a generation behind the rafale and even behind what we can make here (Virupaksha and the new MkIII astra).

Theres a reason why the CONGRESS govt walked out after sinking 300 million USD into it. Russian tech is frozen in the 90s after the collapse.

 

[Nibbler]

Where is f15 talk coming from.

I figured f16(21) was the most likely. The wings already being made in India etc

 

[username unkown]

Just saying, you'll be surprised at how much cooperative US firms have become. Their is serious talk of manufacturing MQ9s here.

F15EX and F35, especially. are top contenders for induction, thanks to very low pricing compared to Rafales. Heck, new F15EXs will cost us less than new build Su30MKIs.

And GE has been persuaded, lets say, to deliver 1 engine a month this year and 20 a year from next year.

Even if f15ex is cheaper than su30 mki
But will we get half of freedom we have with su 30 with f 15 i dont think so

 

[Binayak95]

Even if f15ex is cheaper than su30 mki
But will we get half of freedom we have with su 30 with f 15 i dont think so

How much freedom do you think you have with the Su30? With the F15, or any non Russian aircraft, you know the comm standards, you know the interface bus (MIL STD 1553B ftw) and voila, everything from israeli rampage to Indian SAAW is now open for game.

Why do you think we insisted on Indian mission computers on the MKI?

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Just saying, you'll be surprised at how much cooperative US firms have become. Their is serious talk of manufacturing MQ9s here.

F15EX and F35, especially. are top contenders for induction, thanks to very low pricing compared to Rafales. Heck, new F15EXs will cost us less than new build Su30MKIs.

And GE has been persuaded, lets say, to deliver 1 engine a month this year and 20 a year from next year.

What do you think is goal? Is it just aimlessly inducting squadrons just for sake of vibes and dWiNdLiNg cApAbIliTy? OR Is it to open up a Private Sector Aerospace to break monopoly of HAL?

Looking at IAF Chief, Maja Nahi Aa Rahe while lambasting at HAL, I believe the importance of latter aspect is more important than former. But if that is so, F-15 is a dinosaur. What a stupid thought this is. We are very well versed in AL-31 Engine, We are gonna import F404, We are aiming for F414 Engines and suddenly add on another engine F110 in this circus.

 

[Binayak95]

What do you think is goal? Is it just aimlessly inducting squadrons just for sake of vibes and dWiNdLiNg cApAbIliTy? OR Is it to open up a Private Sector Aerospace to break monopoly of HAL?

Looking at IAF Chief, Maja Nahi Aa Rahe while lambasting at HAL, I believe the importance of latter aspect is more important than former. But if that is so, F-15 is a dinosaur. What a stupid thought this is. We are very well versed in AL-31 Engine, We are gonna import F404, We are aiming for F414 Engines and suddenly add on another engine F110 in this circus.

HAL almost was shuttered by Parikar. Tejas was their last chance, they fucked it up as usual. So now, GOI went ahead and wrote down on paper, what kind of strength the IAF actually desires for a two front war. 60 squadrons sounds about right, and then there's refuellers, AWACS and everything else.

So, given this tall cliff face of a capability gap, what do you do? You let JVs come in and rock the boat, since after all, all these years HAL has been doing precisely that - building Jaguars and MiG21s and Su30MKIs.

 

[randombully]

Just saying, you'll be surprised at how much cooperative US firms have become. Their is serious talk of manufacturing MQ9s here.

Cooperative on older tech and even then not in key components.
They may agree to manufacture mq9 in India, but Sar radars, engine etc will still come from usa, it will only be airframe that will be made.


See how much freedom their european allies have with f35 use.

 

[randombully]

How much freedom do you think you have with the Su30? With the F15, or any non Russian aircraft, you know the comm standards, you know the interface bus (MIL STD 1553B ftw) and voila, everything from israeli rampage to Indian SAAW is now open for game.

Why do you think we insisted on Indian mission computers on the MKI?

How much freedom do you think you have with the Su30? With the F15, or any non Russian aircraft, you know the comm standards, you know the interface bus (MIL STD 1553B ftw) and voila, everything from israeli rampage to Indian SAAW is now open for game.

Why do you think we insisted on Indian mission computers on the MKI?

We already have indian mission computers on mki's.
Already desified them.
Gotta do it all again on f15ex.

Plus even if Boeing agrees, then the extra money to integrate indian mission computer, to integrate other origin weapons, to biuld new infrastructure and training etc, will make f15ex more expensive.

Plus, Russia never put any political pressure on us on any weapon system.
US did in past.
US is more lenient in transport aircraft, but in case of fighter jets, we will have to bow down to US.
There are already suspicion that biden administration delayed apache delivery, and suspicion that f404 delay also has political angle.

Out of all the countries on earth, US is most reluctant to share tot.

 

[Binayak95]

Cooperative on older tech and even then not in key components.
They may agree to manufacture mq9 in India, but Sar radars, engine etc will still come from usa, it will only be airframe that will be made.


See how much freedom their european allies have with f35 use.

F35 is another entirely different ballgame, its less of an aircraft, more of a neural machine that processes threats like vectors in a ml model.

No one understands the system here, least of all the govt.

The US guards its threat libraries and models like a classified secret of the highest order, and rightfully so. the amount of chinese penetration globally is not only dangerous, its a fatal flaw. Chinks were able to steal the design after all, and chinese master and phd students in US and Europe are what has led to their technological rise.

SO yeah, they will allow us to play with a generation older equipment, but that, combined with our doctrine and warfighting experience will allow us to trump the chinks, is the hope and prayer.

Plus, from a pure historical perspective, several nations have prospered when their private entities team up with american firms to do some manufacturing, they naturally spend money and resources to do R&D and upgrades because unlike govt firms, they cant survive on taxpayer largesse. Once the aircraft is flying, they have to earn money by upgrading them and overhauling them AND developing the next thing lest they go bankrupt.

Examples being IAI, Mitsubishi and TAI.

 

[username unkown]

How much freedom do you think you have with the Su30? With the F15, or any non Russian aircraft, you know the comm standards, you know the interface bus (MIL STD 1553B ftw) and voila, everything from israeli rampage to Indian SAAW is now open for game.

Why do you think we insisted on Indian mission computers on the MKI?

European who ordered f 35 are crying on kill switch how can south Asian country believe in usa and you have to integrate all your weapons avionics on f 15 you have to pay Boeing tons of money gotta take permission with su 30 not so much

 

[Binayak95]

We already have indian mission computers on mki's.
Already desified them.
Gotta do it all again on f15ex.

Plus even if Boeing agrees, then the extra money to integrate indian mission computer, to integrate other origin weapons, to biuld new infrastructure and training etc, will make f15ex more expensive.

Plus, Russia never put any political pressure on us on any weapon system.
US did in past.
US is more lenient in transport aircraft, but in case of fighter jets, we will have to bow down to US.
There are already suspicion that biden administration delayed apache delivery, and suspicion that f404 delay also has political angle.

Out of all the countries on earth, US is most reluctant to share tot.

No thats the point. We wont have to retrofit Indian mission computers and avionics to ANY non Russian fighter (Rafale included) because they already conform to the MILSTD 1553B.

We can configure it as is to use Indian weapons, that was the entire point.

Apache delivery? IA doesnt have the crews to man them, those Apaches are sitting idle in Hyderabad. F404 delay was entirely on HAL and MOD file pushing. Fuckers took so long that the entire line shut down. Same thing with the MTU engines for Arjuns, and the C17s. we could have gotten 7 more, but took so long that UAE of all countries snapped them up, leaving us to settle for one.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

HAL almost was shuttered by Parikar. Tejas was their last chance, they fucked it up as usual. So now, GOI went ahead and wrote down on paper, what kind of strength the IAF actually desires for a two front war. 60 squadrons sounds about right, and then there's refuellers, AWACS and everything else.

So, given this tall cliff face of a capability gap, what do you do? You let JVs come in and rock the boat, since after all, all these years HAL has been doing precisely that - building Jaguars and MiG21s and Su30MKIs.

I'm not defending HAL, and I don't care if it gets shut down. I'm not even against imports if they're necessary. But what's the point of importing outdated platforms? Looking at Dassault's tactics, it seems they want to own the FAL in India entirely without transferring any real technology. The F-15 is a relic, the Su-57 was outdated the moment it arrived, and the F-16 is a complete non-starter. Gripen doesn’t stand a chance either. The only aircraft that make sense are the F-18, Rafale, and Typhoon. However, the Typhoon has almost no chance, despite being technologically on par with the Rafale, because we don’t want to deal with multiple partners. I also don't think the IAF has much interest in the F-18, which leaves only the Rafale. But I have serious doubts about Dassault’s ToT clause—after all, cheating is part and parcel of French approach to business.

 

[Binayak95]

European who ordered f 35 are crying on kill switch how can south Asian country believe in usa and you have to integrate all your weapons avionics on f 15 you have to pay Boeing tons of money gotta take permission with su 30 not so much

Eurocucks ke baare mai bolo mat. I have an axe to grind there. Useless shits with more pathetic citizenry than our own.

Apart from Poland France and Italy no one there is serious about their military and even in those countries there is zero appetite for serving the nation.

 

[randombully]

The SU57 is a joke of a plane.

Its not stealthy, it's radars, EW and weapons package is a generation behind the rafale and even behind what we can make here (Virupaksha and the new MkIII astra).

Theres a reason why the CONGRESS govt walked out after sinking 300 million USD into it. Russian tech is frozen in the 90s after the collapse.

here we go again with this same wrong shit.

Kindly give the details of radar, weapon packages of both su57 And rafale to me and explain how rafale Is a generation ahead.

Also kindly provide me the source that informed you that stealth of su57 is shit.
Like from what my uneducated ass knows, it's stealth is worse than f35 and j20 But still a stealth jet, miles stealthier than rafale.

"Theres a reason why the CONGRESS govt walked out after sinking 300 million USD into it. Russian tech is frozen in the 90s after the collapse."

After walking out we started our own "stealth project" did not start "rafale like project" to compensate from walking out of fgfa.
I would say still behind US, and even china somewhat.
Behind Europe in terms of jet engines.
But way above 90s.

 

[Binayak95]

I'm not defending HAL, and I don't care if it gets shut down. I'm not even against imports if they're necessary. But what's the point of importing outdated platforms? Looking at Dassault's tactics, it seems they want to own the FAL in India entirely without transferring any real technology. The F-15 is a relic, the Su-57 was outdated the moment it arrived, and the F-16 is a complete non-starter. Gripen doesn’t stand a chance either. The only aircraft that make sense are the F-18, Rafale, and Typhoon. However, the Typhoon has almost no chance, despite being technologically on par with the Rafale, because we don’t want to deal with multiple partners. I also don't think the IAF has much interest in the F-18, which leaves only the Rafale. But I have serious doubts about Dassault’s ToT clause—after all, cheating is part and parcel of French approach to business.

IF the F15 is outdated, why is the USAF building and buying 12 squadrons worth of the new EXs? and yes, its the EX on offer.

Let me be clear, I am not saying the EX should be bought.

I am just saying its on the table and is a serious contender.