Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[pixxel]

My gut feeling is that India will go for :

F 35 : 35-40 aircraft in the late 2020s to early 2030s. Lots of EU countries may back out due to Trump and GCAP availability by the mid 2030s.

Su 30 MKI : Upgraded variants (260 + 12 new orders) + tentatively 40 more as proposed by HAL previously upto early 2030s

Tejas MK1A : (83 + 97) Point defense, Trainer, CAP, A2G upto early 2030s

Tejas MK2 : 120-180 aircraft to replace all Mig 29s and Mirage 2000s by early to mid 2030s

AMCA : 40 aircraft in early 2030s to 80-100 by late 2030s closing off at around 200 aircraft by 2040.

Rafale : Possible order of 36 more by late 2020s to early 2030s to secure production line and spares and prevent another Mirage 2000.

AHCA/FXX (6th generation) : 20-30 aircraft (prototypes and LSP variants) by late 2030a to early 2040s.

Add two more aircraft like gripen and kf21 . Then we will have an whole zoo of airpower

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

Indian MoD Opens Door for Russia in AMCA Engine Development – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Su 57 mki with indian weapons & sensor package could be excellent option while we bulk up numbers with Tejas/ Mk II/ AMCA . 60 squadrons is a pipe dream , it'd be a miracle if we even have 20 squadrons by 2030.

That's what I was talking about.

Instead of expensive rafale, can be rolled out from nasik

Russia Offers Su-57E with ToT for Local Manufacturing, Open to AMCAnisation of the Jet – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Azaad]

That's what I was talking about.
View attachment 27439
Instead of expensive rafale, can be rolled out from nasik

Russia Offers Su-57E with ToT for Local Manufacturing, Open to AMCAnisation of the Jet – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Apparently you guys can't even see the irony of a "5th Gen FA " coming off a 4th Gen FA FAL which has many toolings in common & has apparently been built intentionally for commonality of parts & economies of scale.

Besides all that AMCA ization you're referring to is the FGFA ization of the PAKFA , the IAF has already walked out of in 2018 itself.

For perspective that FGFA ization was supposed to take a good decade after the PAKFA was certified. News for you - the Stage 2 is still in trials.

Btw the MKI zation also took a good 10-15 years & the Russians coolly took those designs , made some slight changes & marketed it to the Chinese , Algerians , Malaysians , etc.

Finally the Russians themselves started using the Su-30 M2 version developed exclusively for the VKS ~ 2012 IIRC.

Tu kule war tel ghal re , Hellfire la patavto. Aata ha tujhya faltu tark sahan hoth nahi . Sota padoo de kharach , tari kalel tula tu nusta kahi lihto aahe mhanun.

 

[Azaad]

Yes the F-35 has ~ 60% in common with the F-16 . But do you see anyone question the status of the F-35 as a 5th Gen FA ?

Why talk of 2018 , when back in the day the MKI was being implemented , most of the avionics were French Israel & rest of Europe in that order followed by Russia & India. And that entire exercise wenton from the mid 1990s to ~ 2010.

If it's still the same in 2018 or 2025 with the Russians what exactly are we debating ? I've written this before - look at the networked system we're coming up with . That's your clue for how'd we be going up against the PLAAF.

It's networking all sensors whether civil or defence , land sea underwater aerial & space based followed by a highly networked IADS & the IRF which you should be considering. Tu farach mage aahe .

I'd also written had we not gone in for the Rafales we would definitely have considered the Su-57. It's the best quasi 5th Gen FA out there.

As far as squadron strength goes let's think of 2030 for that's when we're expected to go up against the Chinese . Once we get that out of the way , the future can take care of itself.

Finally if you've been arguing for the AMCA ization of the Su-57 & I've been constantly drawing your attention to the simple fact that it's a time consuming affair which assuming we went through with will come out the same time as the AMCA Mk-2 .

What's the point of this exercise ? This would've made sense to the IAF & HAL in the 2000s when we were expected to learn the ropes of designing & mfg a 5th Gen FA which we'd then utilise in designing & developing the AMCA.

However what transpired in between was something unimaginable. The Russians due to their own compulsion came up with the Su-57 which didn't fit in with our requirements & contrary to our expectations the AMCA shaped up better than what the IAF expected it to be & quite possibly what the Russians expected as well .

Now make out of it what you can

 

[randombully]

Btw the MKI zation took a good 10-15 years

You are not accounting the fact, that we did not have an ecosystem for fighter development.
Su30mki and tejas helped develop that ecosystem.
Currently we have have developed everything/have solid base for current and future fighter jets excepts engines, we didn't have that in 2000's when su30 deal was signed.
It's an exponential curve.
The Super sukhoi upgrade is supposed to be bigger task than mki zation and supposed to be completed in 5-6 year, when first super sukhoi will role out.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Add two more aircraft like gripen and kf21 . Then we will have an whole zoo of airpower

Add these two fighters with 100% Indigenous popped out suddenly in Aero India. Reverse Image search gives these pictures.






Dhandomaxxers rocks.

MOD Babus Shocked.

That's what I was talking about.
View attachment 27439
Instead of expensive rafale, can be rolled out from nasik

Russia Offers Su-57E with ToT for Local Manufacturing, Open to AMCAnisation of the Jet – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

I will rather wait for 3000 Black jets from Allah then building the same Russian jets with horrible Maintenance history with IAF.

 

[darkflame]

I will rather wait for 3000 Black jets from Allah then building the same Russian jets with horrible Maintenance history with IAF.

mkis used to have an availability rate of 49% but now it is close to 60%. though availability rate of rafales of iaf is not known but those of french air-force have an availability rate of just 48.5% hence Russian jets edges rafales in maintenance.

 

[Binayak95]

You are not accounting the fact, that we did not have an ecosystem for fighter development.
Su30mki and tejas helped develop that ecosystem.

eh What? By then we had already rolled out the DARIN upgrades to the NAVWASS standard Jags, had done prep work on the 27 upgrade and had already been working on Tejas with the Americans and the French.

Again, let me reiterate. Russian IPC and SDDs are pieces of antique garbage that still hasnt changed.

And this is from a guy whose rozi ki roti is from interfacing with these systems. Even as late as the the new Shtil VLS systems, Russian electronics is a nightmare to interface with, even though IN has had WESEE for 50 years now doing exactly that.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Sorry, IMO AMCA is not going from FF to delivery in 3 years.

Limited Series Production AMCA in IOC format will be cleared for induction of 1 squadron just like Tejas MK1. That doesn't mean it will be 100% ready for operations.

Similar to the present condition of the Su 57.

FF in 2027 to 2033 is 8 years BTW.

 

[randombully]

eh What? By then we had already rolled out the DARIN upgrades to the NAVWASS standard Jags, had done prep work on the 27 upgrade and had already been working on Tejas with the Americans and the French.

Again, let me reiterate. Russian IPC and SDDs are pieces of antique garbage that still hasnt changed.

And this is from a guy whose rozi ki roti is from interfacing with these systems. Even as late as the the new Shtil VLS systems, Russian electronics is a nightmare to interface with, even though IN has had WESEE for 50 years now doing exactly that.

Mki zation:- developing our own mission computer, our own rwr, our own EW suite, our own bvr missiles, our own multifunction display cockpit, our own digital fly by wire control to replace some parts of original russian fly-by-wire, our own irst etc, all of which are either already on su30mki or completed development and waiting to be installed.
And prototype stage of developing the new Virupaksha radar.
No11 Bars while an decades old radars, still helped us in part learning how to make radars.
So did manufacturing of aircraft airframe and engine.

"On going development" of tejas and Darin 1 upgrades did not create a "ecosystem of manufacturing a 4th gen fighter jet" at that time.
Hal's manufacturing su30mki has provided them industrial experience.
This along with tejas program
And now we have every thing(except engines) to make modern non stealth jet and solid base to make a stealth jet( again except engines ).

Shitl vls is not a modern system.
Shitl rotary system is from 1990's .
And shitl-1 "VLS" is from-2000s.

Russia created redut vls- in 2010s used in systems like s400, it uses their equivalent of western STANAG-3910.
Tho they are still behind latest western sdd's that are emerging.

 

[Binayak95]

Mki zation:- developing our own mission computer, our own rwr, our own EW suite, our own bvr missiles, our own multifunction display cockpit, our own digital fly by wire control to replace some parts of original russian fly-by-wire, our own irst etc, all of which are either already on su30mki or completed development and waiting to be installed.
And prototype stage of developing the new Virupaksha radar.
No11 Bars while an decades old radars, still helped us in part learning how to make radars.
So did manufacturing of aircraft airframe and engine.

"On going development" of tejas and Darin 1 upgrades did not create a "ecosystem of manufacturing a 4th gen fighter jet" at that time.
Hal's manufacturing su30mki has provided them industrial experience.
This along with tejas program
And now we have every thing(except engines) to make modern non stealth jet and solid base to make a stealth jet( again except engines ).

Shitl vls is not a modern system.
Shitl rotary system is from 1990's .
And shitl-1 "VLS" is from-2000s.

Russia created redut vls- in 2010s used in systems like s400, it uses their equivalent of western STANAG-3910.
Tho they are still behind latest western sdd's that are emerging.

Mujhe S400 ka dekhna hai integration with IACCS. THAT WILL TELL ALL

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Mujhe S400 ka dekhna hai integration with IACCS. THAT WILL TELL ALL

I heard that a customer of S-400 was excited about it and when they looked it inside everything is sub-standard piece of junk that even middle powers could do better if given money?

 

[daya]

Almost 11 years have flushed away, the same story is repeated. Keep cool, don't get your blood boiled.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Timeline per my estimates :

• Early 2025 - Full scale mockup (EMD)
• Late 2026 -Early 27 - Rollout
• Late 2027 -Early 2028 - First Flight
• Late 2031-Early 2032 - IOC Achieved
• Late 2032-Early 2033 - Limited Series Production/ Induction
• 2033 - First Squadron
• 2034 - Second Squadron
• 2035 - FOC Achieved
• 2038 - AMCA Mk.1 production completed at 100+ aircraft (20/yr)
• 2038 - AMCA Mk.2 IOC (?)

I confess I don't see how you get from completed testing of 5 flying prototypes in 2031/2 to completed LSP production airframes in 2033. At what point does GOI place an order for x no of aircraft to enable parts to be ordered from subcontractors so that deliveries can be made 2033?