Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

We thought of this 15 years ago and UVLM is a result of that thought, it isn't just for BrahMos, or just BrahMos + LR-LACM, it will continue to get new missiles integrated.
The only reason we call it Universal Vertical Launching System is because that's what the Russians call 3C-14Э; on which it's based. USKS standing for Универсальный Корабельный Стрельбовый Комплекс or Universal Shipborne Launching Complex.

And even for Russian the only reason it's something "universal" is because it can launch both Kalibr and Oniks.
That's it
 
The only reason we call it Universal Vertical Launching System is because that's what the Russians call 3C-14Э; on which it's based. USKS standing for Универсальный Корабельный Стрельбовый Комплекс or Universal Shipborne Launching Complex.

And even for Russian the only reason it's something "universal" is because it can launch both Kalibr and Oniks.
That's it

How difficult would it be to alter this so called USKS into a true UVLS like the Mk41?? I mean I know it's got round cross section but can't we just alter it to a square one and use that as one??
 
How difficult would it be to alter this so called USKS into a true UVLS like the Mk41?? I mean I know it's got round cross section but can't we just alter it to a square one and use that as one??
The problem's not the VLS...it's just one missile that messes everything up.
VL-SRSAM, Kusha-M1, M2, M3, LRSAM, AAD, even Nirbhay; all uses the Western hot launch method. But as for BrahMos it's based on the Russian design philosophy of cold launching.

So we can easily retrofit our UVLM Launchers for Mk-41 type VLS but then we won't be able to use BrahMos.

Making a true multi-purpose Hot-Cold VLS is not that tough as China is already using one but the problem is that it needs to be made from the ground up together with the ship it's supposed to equip; retrofitting one to older ships would be bit complicated.
 
The problem's not the VLS...it's just one missile that messes everything up.
VL-SRSAM, Kusha-M1, M2, M3, LRSAM, AAD, even Nirbhay; all uses the Western hot launch method. But as for BrahMos it's based on the Russian design philosophy of cold launching.

I know but can't we just use separate dedicated cold launch cells for BrahMos (and future hypersonic missiles) and UVLS for the rest of the missiles??
 
I know but can't we just use separate dedicated cold launch cells for BrahMos (and future hypersonic missiles) and UVLS for the rest of the missiles??
In "can't we" we can easily place 8 or 16 BrahMos erector launcher amidship just like most of the navies use that spot for sub-sonic AShM like Harpoons. And completely dedicate the bow to SAMs.

But there's a bit long road between "can't we" and "we will".
Like can't we have 4 simpler, lighter, single shot and non-deck-penetrating ASW rocket launchers on four corners of the ship instead of this current set-up of having a huge under deck volume wasted by RBU-6000's reloading mechanism?
 
In "can't we" we can easily place 8 or 16 BrahMos erector launcher amidship just like most of the navies use that spot for sub-sonic AShM like Harpoons. And completely dedicate the bow to SAMs.
The Russians are using two different kind of VLS modules and the Americans are planning on doing it as well for their supersonic/ hypersonic missiles, so I don't think you HAVE TO go with the erector launcher set up (not to say it won't work).
Like can't we have 4 simpler, lighter, single shot and non-deck-penetrating ASW rocket launchers on four corners of the ship instead of this current set-up of having a huge under deck volume wasted by RBU-6000's reloading mechanism?
Well, at least someone shares my opinion about our warship designs being in fact, extremely poorly optimized.
 
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The Russians are using two different kind of VLS modules and the Americans are planning on doing it as well for their supersonic/ hypersonic missiles, so I don't think you HAVE TO go with the erector launcher set up (not to say it won't work).
Well the reason I went specifically for erector launcher was the dimension constraints of of our vessels.

Zumwalts have a beam of 24.6 m - draft of 8.4m and even for Arleigh Burkes it's 20 m - 9.4m. So they can use that to easily accomodate longer ballistic missiles.

But for Vishakhapatnam it's 17.4m and 6.5m. So the best way to add bigger missile is to simply store them horizontally and erect them before launching.
 
Well the reason I went specifically for erector launcher was the dimension constraints of of our vessels.

Zumwalts have a beam of 24.6 m - draft of 8.4m and even for Arleigh Burkes it's 20 m - 9.4m. So they can use that to easily accomodate longer ballistic missiles.

But for Vishakhapatnam it's 17.4m and 6.5m. So the best way to add bigger missile is to simply store them horizontally and erect them before launching.

We can keep them in rear location, that can be made near 20m high in total.
E9AhsP.png
 
We can keep them in rear location, that can be made near 20m high in total.
View attachment 9486
IMG_20240915_103019.png
The height of UVLM/USKS VLS is approximately 9.5m so 10m would be perhaps the max you can get to add a missile. No matter where you add a 20m long missile it would be needing a tall superstructure, almost as long as the smokestacks.

Making a new ship with this kind of arrangement won't be that big of a problem (RCS would definitely increase tho) but retrofitting one would start to mess with ship's EO, radars and antennas.
 
View attachment 9487
The height of UVLM/USKS VLS is approximately 9.5m so 10m would be perhaps the max you can get to add a missile. No matter where you add a 20m long missile it would be needing a tall superstructure, almost as long as the smokestacks.

Making a new ship with this kind of arrangement won't be that big of a problem (RCS would definitely increase tho) but retrofitting one would start to mess with ship's EO, radars and antennas.

I don't think we'll be putting in these boats any missiles longer than BrahMos.
 
View attachment 9487
The height of UVLM/USKS VLS is approximately 9.5m so 10m would be perhaps the max you can get to add a missile. No matter where you add a 20m long missile it would be needing a tall superstructure, almost as long as the smokestacks.

Making a new ship with this kind of arrangement won't be that big of a problem (RCS would definitely increase tho) but retrofitting one would start to mess with ship's EO, radars and antennas.

We did fine on Delhi class... Also that has Brahmo-s shown too large. Check the scale.

Nilgiri will hold Brahmos in her unraised flush deck.
 
We did fine on Delhi class...
We did that...
IMG_20240915_133129.jpg
...by using a non deck penetrating inclined launcher. Which is just a cruder implementation of the exact same idea I proposed earlier 👇
So the best way to add bigger missile is to simply store them horizontally and erect them before launching.
Also that has Brahmo-s shown too large. Check the scale.
It had nothing to do with BrahMos or even scale; I simply extended a line from top of the raised hull to the rear. The UVLM is 9.5m tall, so the raised deck should be about 10m. As the rear raised deck also coincides with this line, it's safe to assume that it's also having similar dimensional constraints.

If scale is the problem then I can replicate my theory on an actual image. There you go
IMG_20240915_133703.png
Nilgiri will hold in her unraised flush deck.
Yes, it'll. But for that it'll be paying a price. Nilgiri would be having a single UVLM as opposed to twin on Kolkata class. As soon as you make something narrower, you can fit it more into something with conical cross section.
IMG_20240915_132536.jpg
See, how both the ships have the exact same draft but as soon as I increase the VLS from one to two, it extend beyond the deck.
 
We did that...
View attachment 9511
...by using a non deck penetrating inclined launcher. Which is just a cruder implementation of the exact same idea I proposed earlier 👇


It had nothing to do with BrahMos or even scale; I simply extended a line from top of the raised hull to the rear. The UVLM is 9.5m tall, so the raised deck should be about 10m. As the rear raised deck also coincides with this line, it's safe to assume that it's also having similar dimensional constraints.

If scale is the problem then I can replicate my theory on an actual image. There you go
View attachment 9514

Yes, it'll. But for that it'll be paying a price. Nilgiri would be having a single UVLM as opposed to twin on Kolkata class. As soon as you make something narrower, you can fit it more into something with conical cross section.
View attachment 9515
See, how both the ships have the exact same draft but as soon as I increase the VLS from one to two, it extend beyond the deck.

I got your Nilgiri point...
I guess Ranvijay also fits BrahMos by turning the VLS cells sideways, although rear is wider.
7ldr4a2oacm51.jpg
IMG_3847.jpeg
But a basic size comparison reveals that bigass Shivalik's big-ass could hold as many BrahMos or AShBM as we wanted.

Then why are we doing away with flush tops?

Nilgiri started like this, based on Shivalik...1723801687884.png
...then came a cut.
47154457512_a594e17717_k.jpgProject 17A FFG.jpg
And now the whole midsection is trimmed down. 🙄

Keep the SAMs at the front deck, & keep the offensive weapons at the rear.
 
I got you Nilgiri point...
I guess Ranvijay also fits BrahMos by turning the VLS cells sideways.
View attachment 9520
View attachment 9524
But a basic size comparison reveals that bigass Shivalik's big-ass could hold as many BrahMos as we wanted.

Then why are we doing away with flush tops?

Nilgiri started like this, based on Shivalik...View attachment 9521
...then came a cut.
View attachment 9522View attachment 9525
And now the whole midsection is trimmed down. 🙄
I just wonder why the navy keep insisting on calling these ships stealth when they are not even LO.
 
I just wonder why the navy keep insisting on calling these ships stealth when they are not even LO.

That i can answer... On Shivalik one officer commented something on the lines of "what stealth, it's 6000tons if visibility".

His explanation was LO doesn't really matter for large size warships. Their signatures can be brought down to replicate small fishing trawlers, but no enemies going to be fooled by a dozen fishing vessels moving in formation, they'll have satellites & they'll know soon. THE point was LO should be secondary for large warships, but important only for small missile-cutters. They could basically become a small dingy in the sea, & do fast hit & run manoeuvres alone, in very small groups or hovering in & about larger ship's formation.
 
That i can answer... On Shivalik one officer commented something on the lines of "what stealth, it's 6000tons if visibility".

His explanation was LO doesn't really matter for large size warships. Their signatures can be brought down to replicate small fishing trawlers, but no enemies going to be fooled by a dozen fishing vessels moving in formation, they'll have satellites & they'll know soon. THE point was LO should be secondary for large warships, but important only for small missile-cutters. They could basically become a small dingy in the sea, & do fast hit & run manoeuvres alone, in very small groups or hovering in & about larger ship's formation.
Oh I get that part but why even bother calling these boats stealth when they clearly are not??!!
 
I got your Nilgiri point...
I guess Ranvijay also fits BrahMos by turning the VLS cells sideways, although rear is wider.
View attachment 9520
View attachment 9524
But a basic size comparison reveals that bigass Shivalik's big-ass could hold as many BrahMos or AShBM as we wanted.

Then why are we doing away with flush tops?

Nilgiri started like this, based on Shivalik...View attachment 9521
...then came a cut.
View attachment 9522View attachment 9525
And now the whole midsection is trimmed down. 🙄

Keep the SAMs at the front deck, & keep the offensive weapons at the rear.
Well in case of Rajput class, it's simple; they are the oldest we have so do whatever experiment you like with them. Some of the Rajputs were fitted with inclined launcher and some with VLS, just to see the feasibility of both the systems. Like now they're the test bed for VL-SRSAM.

As for Shivalik, I agree with you.
The rear raised deck is much higher than front and is used for Barak VLS so we could have accomodate longer missiles in the rear if we wanted.
IMG_20240915_233014.jpg

As for the changes in CGI and models of Nilgiri the only explanation I can come up with is that the initial design might have been dominated by RCS team but then the fabrication and accounting team used their leverages.
That i can answer... On Shivalik one officer commented something on the lines of "what stealth, it's 6000tons if visibility".

His explanation was LO doesn't really matter for large size warships. Their signatures can be brought down to replicate small fishing trawlers, but no enemies going to be fooled by a dozen fishing vessels moving in formation, they'll have satellites & they'll know soon. THE point was LO should be secondary for large warships, but important only for small missile-cutters. They could basically become a small dingy in the sea, & do fast hit & run manoeuvres alone, in very small groups or hovering in & about larger ship's formation.
That is definitely one way of looking into it; with the advent of high resolution satellites no matter how much stealth or even camouflaged you make your ship, your wake would still be more than enough to ruin everything for you.

But here's a counter argument.
In aircrafts the more stealthy a plane would get the less aerodynamic it would become. Hence it's such a pain to design a plane that's both aerodynamic and also stealthy. You can easily end up with a "wobblin goblin" like F-117.
But that's not the case with ships. In ships it's pretty straightforward, have a continuous flush deck, least amount of superstructure possible, two flat sides and every protruding thing (like gun, CIWS, radar, antenna) faceted...that's it, nothing to worry about performance. So if it's this easy then why not make it a default and reduce the RCS as much as possible.
Oh I get that part but why even bother calling these boats stealth when they clearly are not??!!
The same reason we have just four generations of jets from 1st to 4th but almost a dozen in between 4th and 5th...marketing.

So it's kind of like naval equivalent of 4.5/4+/4++/5- genration jet fighters.
Simply cause their STEALTHEIR than their predecessors. Its all relative.
I mean definitely yes, but that's not how how things work. B1-B was exponentially "stealthier" than previous bombers but still it's termed as a LO platform instead of VLO.

Similarly in vessels only two three qualify as true stealth; Zumwalt being the pinnacle, followed by Visby and then probably Skjold. Everything else is just a LO platform with varying degrees of effectiveness.
 

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