Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

It's 11:45, whatever was supposed to happen, happened. We lost an UAV, already had limited supply of them in the first place. But what's more important is the necessity of unmanned platform for such low risk mission

Imagine if this would have been a P-8I. The loss of not just two very capable pilot but 8-10 even more important ASuW personel. How nonchalantly we're discussing the MQ-9 getting ditched, this would not have been the tone then.

A HALE with SAR, sonobuoys, one or two lightweight torpedoes and one or two NASM-SR is what's perhaps the best solution for air-defence deficit scenarios like ASuW or anti-piracy. Perhaps even better than dedicated manned platforms given it's long endurance.
 
KAB7777 said:
Language of the Dalal’s by our esteemed mod @FalconSlayers 😂.

In all seriousness if it was actually piloted by Indian Navy Crew, the OEM, it’s Dalal’s, fanbois and the Media would’ve blamed everything on Operator Error implicitly and explicitly, and wiped General Atomic’s hands off the incident.
Click to expand...
Agar tapas crash hota toh uski design wagerah se lekar yahi Dalal hazar sawal kar rahe hote x par
 
Must watch video.
Amreeki pet Krauts are selling their Submarine division to US investors.
To get a better bargain and make their orderbook look bigger, Krauts have baited Indian Navy and superficially agreed for all the demands which Indian Navy made for peoject 75-I, because few years later it will be Amreeki parent org's headache to fulfill the requirements.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EADSFKbHb8M
 
Nutcracker said:
Must watch video.
Amreeki pet Krauts are selling their Submarine division to US investors.
To get a better bargain and make their orderbook look bigger, Krauts have baited Indian Navy and superficially agreed for all the demands which Indian Navy made for peoject 75-I, because few years later it will be Amreeki parent org's headache to fulfill the requirements.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EADSFKbHb8M
Click to expand...


Why can't we just buy them out instead of having americans buy them out?
 
Nutcracker said:
Must watch video.
Amreeki pet Krauts are selling their Submarine division to US investors.
To get a better bargain and make their orderbook look bigger, Krauts have baited Indian Navy and superficially agreed for all the demands which Indian Navy made for peoject 75-I, because few years later it will be Amreeki parent org's headache to fulfill the requirements.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EADSFKbHb8M
Click to expand...

Alpha Defence is hyping up the fear factor. Talks have been going on since late last year or early this year. All this information is in the public domain since then.

Besides Carlyle is a private equity firm. They aren't going to be involved in day to day management. It remains to be seen though what kind of control they exercise in TKMS once they gain management control.

The German government will still have a stake in TKMS through one of their financial organisations as this is a strategic asset. No country will surrender such an asset to any foreign country even if that country happens to be the closest ally.

At the end of the day our agreement will be with the German government & they have the veto rights as well as the power to enforce the contract. A quick sale will boost up the bargaining power of TKMS thus their asking price .

GoI is expected to safeguard our position & our baboos are the best in the world when it comes to legalese.
 
Azaad said:
Alpha Defence is hyping up the fear factor. Talks have been going on since late last year or early this year. All this information is in the public domain since then.

Besides Carlyle is a private equity firm. They aren't going to be involved in day to day management. It remains to be seen though what kind of control they exercise in TKMS once they gain management control.

The German government will still have a stake in TKMS through one of their financial organisations as this is a strategic asset. No country will surrender such an asset to any foreign country even if that country happens to be the closest ally.

At the end of the day our agreement will be with the German government & they have the veto rights as well as the power to enforce the contract. A quick sale will boost up the bargaining power of TKMS thus their asking price .

GoI is expected to safeguard our position & our baboos are the best in the world when it comes to legalese.
Click to expand...
Still, when every other bugger in the market including this Kraut company pulled out from the requirements IN proposed. Now we have a proposal from same TKMS vouching to fulfill all requirements when it's majority share transfer is on the table, that too to a US equity firm.
I hope Babus have a real backup plan in mind or French are going to extort premium for more Kalvaris.
 
Azaad said:
GoI is expected to safeguard our position & our baboos are the best in the world when it comes to legalese.
Click to expand...

Not really. There have been a few examples where the finer print of the contracts came back and bit GoI squarely on its ass.
 
Nutcracker said:
Still, when every other bugger in the market including this Kraut company pulled out from the requirements IN proposed. Now we have a proposal from same TKMS vouching to fulfill all requirements when it's majority share transfer is on the table, that too to a US equity firm.
I hope Babus have a real backup plan in mind or French are going to extort premium for more Kalvaris.
Click to expand...
The situation is complicated & neither are there easy explanations nor easy solutions. Ideally given our excellent relationship with France , Naval Group should've been the front runners. This tender was theirs to lose especially since they were awarded Project 75. However their underhanded tactics ruined their chances.

The only other alternative was TKMS which fitted in with IN's requirements . Ironically we had no problems whatsoever with HDW when we concluded the Shishumar class deal nearly 4 decades ago except for the kickbacks issue which had them blacklisted , the deal not exploited to its full potential ( had it been as per what IN envisaged we'd be where RoK is today in this sphere for they proceeded later on the same path we planned & got there ahead of us ) & it seriously damaged the IN's future submarine plans. Arguably this was 4 decades ago & a lot of water has flown under the bridge since then but our problems were more with the German government , at least in the past 2 decades.

Once the IN decided that NG wasn't to be part of the tender hence drew up the technical aspects of the tender accordingly this became a tender for TKMS to lose. Hence the bending over backwards to accomodate TKMS as without them there is no Project 75 I .

The others , be they the Swedes with the Gotland class or Russians with the Amur class or RoK with their TKMS derivatives or even Navantia with the S-80 were there to make up the numbers.

There was some flirtation with the Japanese but that didn't go anywhere. Ditto with RoK till their performance issues with the Indonesian Navy came to light. Read up more on that saga.

As far as your statement about us being at their mercy goes that's true for any external procurement viz - our relationship with the Russians. We reached some sort of accomodation with the Russians over a period of time , when they were at the top of their game as far as the technical aspects & financial aspects of their equipment went . The MKI episode is a good example of both our triumphs & despair.

Without the IAF there is no Su-30 Fighter Aircraft as that one program spawned an entire family of FAs more so since the J-11 program with the Chinese hit a very rough patch as the Chinese started reverse engineering the Su-27 in violation of the terms of the contract.

However that was WiP & although the IAF & the entire Indian aerospace ecosystem viz HAL , DRDO & its affiliated laboratories learnt a lot it was a chaotic program with a long gestation period of nearly 2 decades before the MKI was realised in its final form as per the specifications of the IAF.

It's not as if our relationship with them was smooth but we knew how to deal with them till the Admiral Gorshkov / INS Vikramaditya saga. That soured the relationship considerably & was the turning point in our mutual relationship. Moreover by that time the writing was on the wall. Russian technologies were getting behind the west & we were building up our capacities.

Whatever gaps remained couldn't be plugged using Russian technologies except for certain niche areas like N tech or exotic technologies like Brahmos both of which we couldn't get from any other source.

As of the present only France has displayed the willingness to collaborate with India in such ventures but this is a recent phenomenon not earlier than 2010. What's prompted France to express such interest in replacing Russia is also related a great deal to the AUKUS debacle but we've yet to get into any such arrangement with them or probably we have just that there's nothing of note in the public domain.
 
Nutcracker said:
I hope Babus have a real backup plan in mind or French are going to extort premium for more Kalvaris.
Click to expand...
The only back up plan is Import Substitution / Indigenization / Atma Nirbhar Bharat / MII / DMII & its various iterations.

Till then we're at the mercy of foreign vendors who be they the French or the Americans or ze Germans or the Russkies or the Japanese or any other nationality are there just to screw us one way or another.

It's only the degree to which they screw us which is different. In short you look out for someone who conforms to most of your requirements & screws you the least.
 
Blademaster said:
Why can't we just buy them out instead of having americans buy them out?
Click to expand...
They won't sell such asset to non ally country even if we are willing to pay more.
 
Aight lads, I got a treat for you this Sunday. FEEL FREE TO CIRCULATE THIS ON TWITTER ETC. (Credits first: Original work from here, I built upon it.
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/19ef3xh/surface_ships_of_indian_navys_western_fleet_vs/)

If all goes well & the gods are good, then Indian Navy surface fleet will double in tonnage over the next 15 years. Comparing at beginning of 2025 & 2040.


Note that, there are some assumptions & considerations.
I'm taking only the surface combat capable fleet including anti-sub & offshore patrol ships, no fast-attack crafts or minesweepers. Minor rounding off of tonnages here & there. Some silhouettes are informed guesses at best (notice LRMFR on IAC 2, P-17B & P-18).
  • The IAC-2 is assumed to be a 50k ton skyjumper.
  • Assumed tonnages for NG Classes are taken conservatively. P-18 is assumed 10000 tons as Wikipedia, P-17B as 7000 ton, Next generation Corvette is taken 4000 tons.
  • P-17B & NGF are assumed same in absence of anything indicating otherwise.
  • Retirement age is taken ±40yrs. Rajput, Brahmaputra, Khukri, Veer, Abhay Classes are removed at 2040, Delhi & Khukri stays but will then be just in line for retirement.
  • INS Nilgiri is not being counted, but INS Surat is as it's expected to be delivered by December. 8 Talwars considered at 2025 as per delivery schedule.
2025.png2040.png
 
Not sure where else I'd post this, but found an interesting little video of an old game from the 90s of a scenario where the Indian military prepares to invade Sri Lanka. The human player plays as the US Navy, trying to stabilize the area.

Obviously not the paragon of realism, but still pretty detailed.


View: https://youtu.be/RI28cSYWY40
 
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