Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Corvus Splendens]

1.2 billion per ship??!! That's gotta be overpriced for what we'll be getting.

To carry 8x and 32x MRSAM. Waste of tonnage. Absolutely infuriates me, when IN is supposed to compete with PLAN qualitatively.

 

[marliii]

To carry 8x and 32x MRSAM. Waste of tonnage. Absolutely infuriates me, when IN is supposed to compete with PLAN qualitatively.
View attachment 8392

It will be much worse if the new frigates are gonna be of the same size or even bigger than even Visakhapatnam class.

 

[Blood+]

To carry 8x and 32x MRSAM. Waste of tonnage. Absolutely infuriates me, when IN is supposed to compete with PLAN qualitatively.
View attachment 8392

Yeah, at this point, I've pretty much quit thinking about this shit just to retain my sanity. My only hopium is now that these ships will get a proper make over once the UVLS becomes operational, who knows when.

 

[ezsasa]

1.2 billion per ship??!! That's gotta be overpriced for what we'll be getting.

Project 17A was approved for 45000 cr ₹ in 2009, i.e 9.8 billion $ in 2009's exchange rate.
Project 17B is now costing 70000 cr ₹ in 2024, i.e 8.3 billion $ in 2024's exchange rate.

they got cheaper in $ value. and these are project costs, not just the ships alone.

 

[Blood+]

Project 17A was approved for 45000 cr ₹ in 2009, i.e 9.8 billion $ in 2009's exchange rate.
Project 17B is now costing 70000 cr ₹ in 2024, i.e 8.3 billion $ in 2024's exchange rate.

they got cheaper in $ value. and these are project costs, not just the ships alone.

Nilgiri was laid down at the tail end of 2017, the same won't be the case for the 17Bs!! Therefore, the inflation theory doesn't really stick in this case.
And can you kindly clarify what you mean by "project costs"?? All the infrastructure is already there, so what additional cost there can be?? It ain't adding up, mate.

 

[SlayingHell]

To carry 8x and 32x MRSAM. Waste of tonnage. Absolutely infuriates me, when IN is supposed to compete with PLAN qualitatively.
View attachment 8392

I need to express some serious concerns about the current state of the Navy’s vessel strategy, particularly when it comes to classes like the Nilgiri and Vishakapatnam. While we often hear high praise for the Navy, it seems to me that their strategy is lacking in several crucial areas. The SSBN program and ASWSWC are commendable, but other aspects appear to be misaligned with effective naval strategy.

Take the Nilgiri Class, for instance. Are they being built solely to meet a numerical target by 2030, without considering their actual role and effectiveness in modern naval warfare? This approach seems to lack strategic foresight of what each kind of class constitutes in broader strategy.

When evaluating the role of these ships in Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW) and Land Attack scenarios, it becomes clear that their design may not be the most efficient. Globally, navies are moving away from building small to medium-sized frigates (<7000 tons) for these roles. The cost-effectiveness of using fighter jets, surface-launched missiles, or aircraft carriers for strikes is much higher. If the intent is for these ships to engage offensively beyond our territorial waters, the number of just eight missiles is insufficient. On the defensive side, using fighter jets armed with BrahMos missiles would be more effective against incoming ships from the PLAN.

For Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW), the Nilgiri Class seems to be an overkill in several aspects. The inclusion of a 4-panel AESA radar and L-band early warning radar appears excessive. A 2-panel rotating radar would suffice for ASW operations. Similarly, the choice of Barak-8 missiles seems excessive; more cost-effective options like ESSM or VL-SRSAM would be adequate. Additionally, the lack of ASROC-type missiles in favor of torpedoes alone seems to be a missed opportunity. The single helicopter hangar, rather than two, severely limits the availability of ASW helicopters for missions. The absence of electric motors, which are present in other advanced frigates like the FREMM or Type 26, is another significant shortcoming.

In terms of Anti-Air Warfare (AAW), while the radars are indeed top-notch, the deployment of only 32 Barak-8 missiles raises questions. This setup lacks a high-low mix, which is critical for effective AAW. The combination of two expensive radars with a limited number of missiles suggests a mismatch in capability and expenditure.

The design appears to be an attempt at a general-purpose frigate, but this approach does not justify the inclusion of an early warning radar, especially when the ship lacks a long-range surface-to-air missile (LRSAM) system. At a cost of approximately 1 billion dollars, the vessel seems to be a half-assed jack-of-all-trades but master of none. It falls short of effectively fulfilling any of the roles it is supposed to cover.
You aren't gonna send this 1 Billion ship to fight Asymmetric Warfare, Secure Shipping Lines, Anti-Piracy right?

Overall, the Nilgiri Class represents a costly and inefficient solution that does not seem to address the broader needs of our naval strategy effectively. It appears to be a poorly executed attempt to cover multiple roles without excelling in any.

I really like Navy to answer themselves? What do they intend to achieve with this half-assed ships?

Personally I think we need
1. ASWSWC(For Inshore ASW Duties)
2. 6000 Ton ASW Frigate for both Carrier Escort Roles and Filtering out waters in far away from Coast
3. A General Purpose Tier-2 Frigate for all Generic Duties such as Anti-Piracy, Maritime Security.. Second tier duties.
4. 12,000 Ton Multi Role Destroyer.
Navy got 2 things right, the ASWSWC and NGD while the Nilgiri and Vishakapatnam excel at none- neither AAW nor ASW.

 

[ezsasa]

Nilgiri was laid down at the tail end of 2017, the same won't be the case for the 17Bs!! Therefore, the inflation theory doesn't really stick in this case.
And can you kindly clarify what you mean by "project costs"?? All the infrastructure is already there, so what additional cost there can be?? It ain't adding up, mate.

work on nilgiri ended up starting in 2017, because procurement was a mess under previous gormint. until the actual cost for nilgiri class comes up in some CAG report, last known number is from 2009.

not sure what IN calls these costs, let's call it forward costs. these are costs for recruitment and training, maintenance contracts, expendables including ammunition, other consumables. these are contracts that are given out by IN except for HR related items. all these items have to booked under some head in the ledger and it won't be a fully capex head.

as a general rule, DAC approves project cost, which means this the amount gormint is allotting to this program within finance ministry. over a period of time, IN will keep consuming this budget for this particular item during and after construction. after this project is done, accounting might vary.

note: these are speculations from my end, assuming accounting principles must be the same.

 

[ezsasa]

work on nilgiri ended up starting in 2017, because procurement was a mess under previous gormint. until the actual cost for nilgiri class comes up in some CAG report, last known number is from 2009.

not sure what IN calls these costs, let's call it forward costs. these are costs for recruitment and training, maintenance contracts, expendables including ammunition, other consumables. these are contracts that are given out by IN except for HR related items. all these items have to booked under some head in the ledger and it won't be a fully capex head.

as a general rule, DAC approves project cost, which means this the amount gormint is allotting to this program within finance ministry. over a period of time, IN will keep consuming this budget for this particular item during and after construction. after this project is done, accounting might vary.

note: these are speculations from my end, assuming accounting principles must be the same.

let me also add, when russians were our primary suppliers, the numbers that used to be published in media was purely capex costs, that's why they used to look cheap. the mess used to start after delivery, when signing other contracts, which invariably led to delays. this one i picked up from some think tank discussion video many years ago.

 

[jaijaganath]

In Nilgiri Class, the imported and semi-imported contents(licensed manufacturing/joint venture) are
1. MFSTAR
2. L-Band Radar
3. Barak-8
4.
5. OTO 76mm Gun
6. AK-630M.
So in the latter 4 case, even with screw driver giri like OTO or importing sub components like or Barak-8, we are paying too much money as hafta. What are they gonna replace these with?
Its actually fine even if we pay 2B$ for one ship if all components are indigenous as majority of the money stays in India but here is not the case.

1. drdo and amp produced lrmfr
3. indigenous missile derived from ersam

Many other sub systems exists in a ship apart from weapons and those things will also get replaced by indigenous alternative

Wait for final ccs u will get to know exact price as mentioned generally in AoN they clear a larger amount but later the price quoted gets reduced

 

[jaijaganath]

LOL, no. P 17B is gonna be a ctrl+c - ctrl+v of its predecessor.


Hope you're right, otherwise, it's gonna be a huge rip off.

Many sources have started it to be different as many capabilities have been proved and tested since 2017
Let's see
It's just AoN so it's not right time to assume cost
That was my point

 

[Binayak95]

To carry 8x and 32x MRSAM. Waste of tonnage. Absolutely infuriates me, when IN is supposed to compete with PLAN qualitatively.
View attachment 8392

aapko khush karne ke liye budget and design nahi hoti, alas.

 

[Blood+]

aapko khush karne ke liye budget and design nahi hoti, alas.

Baat wo nehi hai. People are just concerned about the sparse armamemt profile of our ships. Sure, at a first glance, these have the same number of VLS cells as any other frigates but their each VLS cell is equivalent to 4 of the Barak 8 cells, let's not even mention the reduced flexibility it causes.

I just wonder why no one ever thought about getting the Mk41 VLS system from Uncle Sam?? It's not as if we aren't using their engines.

 

[Binayak95]

Baat wo nehi hai. People are just concerned about the sparse armamemt profile of our ships. Sure, at a first glance, these have the same number of VLS cells as any other frigates but their each VLS cell is equivalent to 4 of the Barak 8 cells, let's not even mention the reduced flexibility it causes.

I just wonder why no one ever thought about getting the Mk41 VLS system from Uncle Sam?? It's not as if we aren't using their engines.

the extra money is being spent on DEW, integrated mast, new Power management systems, ESSM and VL SRSAM fitment.

IN has its priorities right. Fightability takes precedence over sheer loading it to the brim with weapon systems.

 

[Blood+]

Many sources have started it to be different as many capabilities have been proved and tested since 2017
Let's see

That will take too much time. I don't think this batch is gonna differ all that much from the Nilgiri class. I'd be ecstatic to be proven wrong though.

It's just AoN so it's not right time to assume cost
That was my point

I agreed with that part, did I not??

 

[Blood+]

the extra money is being spent on DEW, integrated mast, new Power management systems, ESSM and VL SRSAM fitment.

IN has its priorities right. Fightability takes precedence over sheer loading it to the brim with weapon systems.

I get that but adding a mere 32 cell Mk41 type VLS module would never load a ship this size to the brim as you put it.

 

[Fatalis]

Bhai ham jitna bhi logic nikal le, jawab mang le par armed forces wahi karengi jo unko sahi lagta hai (after all they are the end user and experts of that domain). If they want to keep Rbu-6000 then they will do it, if they want only 32 MRSAM then they will stick with that number only.

 

[Fatalis]

Baat wo nehi hai. People are just concerned about the sparse armamemt profile of our ships. Sure, at a first glance, these have the same number of VLS cells as any other frigates but their each VLS cell is equivalent to 4 of the Barak 8 cells, let's not even mention the reduced flexibility it causes.

I just wonder why no one ever thought about getting the Mk41 VLS system from Uncle Sam?? It's not as if we aren't using their engines.

Ok let's go to US and ask for Mk-41, then what? Will we be able to integrate our missiles in the VLS? Won't they charge for it ( as if they will allow the integration). Navy is in a deep state of modernization, so lot of mismatching is happening - some cases ships are there but technology is being developed and in other case technology is there but ships are to be produced. Once, every thing aligns then only you see what you want to see.

 

[Blood+]

Bhai ham jitna bhi logic nikal le, jawab mang le par armed forces wahi karengi jo unko sahi lagta hai (after all they are the end user and experts of that domain). If they want to keep Rbu-6000 then they will do it, if they want only 32 MRSAM then they will stick with that number only.

Since when hasn't that been true?? Having said that, this is a forum for discussing this stuff and let's be honest, it's kinda fun to nerd the shit of this stuff. But do you actually believe 32 Barak 8s would be enough and that too for a ship this big??!! Don't you think by doing so, their potential is being wasted??

Even the old Delhi class have more SAMs (of poorer quality but still, more of them never the less) than their children and grand children!!

 

[Binayak95]

Since when hasn't that been true?? Having said that, this is a forum for discussing this stuff and let's be honest, it's kinda fun to nerd the shit of this stuff. But do you actually believe 32 Barak 8s would be enough and that too for a ship this big??!! Don't you think by doing so, their potential is being wasted??

Even the old Delhi class have more SAMs (of poorer quality but still, more of them never the less) than their children and grand children!!

32 Barak 8 will be supplemented by both the DEW and the VL SRSAM in time. Probably before the first of the P17Bs are launched.

 

[Blood+]

32 Barak 8 will be supplemented by both the DEW and the VL SRSAM in time. Probably before the first of the P17Bs are launched.

So, no UVLS to be expected within this decade then?? And are they gonna have CODLAG or the same CODAG??