Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[shade2]

Looks to be a very capable ship. Very likely to be the reason why NGMV are so gimped in their firepower by comparison.

What do you think are the possibilities of a repeat order of more NGMV ?

Current order is only 6 ships but there are ~12 Khurkri,Kora and Veer class corvette/missile boat in service with IN, across these classes also some ~8 boats were gifted or decommissioned, so peak missile boat strength of IN would be ~20 missile boats.

Perhaps we will see more when NASM-MR development is complete and inducted by IN? current bottleneck i think is the cost of missiles

 

[vampyrbladez]

There seems to be 2x4=8 Per One side. I think you didn't count the other side which is hidden from this view. Those launchers seem to be too small for , maybe -NG? Or NASM-MR? ITCM?

Which ship design are you referring to? The NGC?

Just like how the NGMV went from 4x2 midship NASM-ER/KH-35 to 2x2 bow launcher based BrahMos, I expect the NGC to end up with BrahMos due to availability and logistics.

 

[Blood+]

What do you think are the possibilities of a repeat order of more NGMV ?

Current order is only 6 ships but there are ~12 Khurkri,Kora and Veer class corvette/missile boat in service with IN, across these classes also some ~8 boats were gifted or decommissioned, so peak missile boat strength of IN would be ~20 missile boats.

Perhaps we will see more when NASM-MR development is complete and inducted by IN? current bottleneck i think is the cost of missiles

By the way, has anyone yet figured out what's so "Next Generation" about these missile vessels?? I mean seriously, what am I missing here, folks??

 

[vampyrbladez]

What do you think are the possibilities of a repeat order of more NGMV ?

Current order is only 6 ships but there are ~12 Khurkri,Kora and Veer class corvette/missile boat in service with IN, across these classes also some ~8 boats were gifted or decommissioned, so peak missile boat strength of IN would be ~20 missile boats.

Perhaps we will see more when NASM-MR development is complete and inducted by IN? current bottleneck i think is the cost of missiles

I don't see much chance of this happening.

• Growth of Naval Mission Plan

Indian Navy is moving towards a blue water navy similar to NATO and the PLAN with large numbers of Destroyers and Frigates to escort CBG and for theatre defense.

The Khukri, Kora and Veer class were part of Anti-Access/Area-Denial strategies from the 1980s-90s when our frigates were still being built in Russia. These were also entirely Pakistan specific.

From the below excerpt we can see that the Indian Navy in the 1980s had focused on missile corvettes to maintain fleet numbers. Now this seems inadequate given that we have been de-hyphenated from Pakistan and integrated with Indo-Pacific.

These vessels were originally conceived as a class of 12 units, being divided into three sub-classes of anti-air, anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare platforms. However due to budgetary constraints and extensive delays in construction & weapons supplies, the number has been revised downwards.

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/navy/equipment/specs/project-25a/

• Shipyard Productivity and Fleet Inductions

The below table with approximations for ship commissioning shows that in the years 2033-2034, there may be no significant warship inductions (excluding submarines).

Commissioning Year/Ship Class	Ship Type	2024	2025	2026	2027	2028	2029	2030	2031	2032	2033	2034	2035	2036	2037	2038	2039	2040
Vishakhapatnam Class	Destroyer		1
Talwar Class (Batch III)	Frigate	1	1	1	1
Nilgiri Class	Frigate		2	2	2	1
P 17B Class	Frigate							2	3	2
NGMV	Corvette				1	2	2	1
NGC	Corvette						1	2	3	2
NGOPV	OPV					1	2	2	3	3
P 18A/B	Destroyer												1	2	2	3	2
Total	(-)	1	4	3	4	3	3	5	6	4	0	0	1	2	2	3	2	0

MDL and GRSE will be busy with P 17B and P 18A/B which leaves only CSL and GSL. CSL will most likely be busy with IAC-II which leaves only GSL and Pipavav Shipyard.

GSL is learning the ropes regarding Frigate construction from Talwar (Batch III). Another possibility of a Talwar Class follow on NGF (Next Generation Frigate) like the Japanese Mogami Class will occupy it's production capacity.

As for Pipavav, the less said the better.

 

[shade2]

As for Pipavav, the less said the better.

I think missile boats in good numbers still have a role to play but then Navy knows best on how to spend their funding, especially since the funding bottleneck is the "missile" not the boat.

Pipavav meanwhile is idle for past 5-6 years, only recently a textile company called Swan Energy managed to buy it last year since chota Ambani went bankrupt.

So I don't think they were in the picture, the Private Sector Shipyard role has been taken over by L&T Katupalli, they are building "Multi Purpose Vessels", OPVs and Coast Guard ships last i checked, they may build Corvettes in the future also if Navy is impressed.

Anyway it's good Navy placing large orders now and distributed between two shipyards, so from this we get

Destroyers/Cruisers, Frigates, Corvettes :- MDL, GRSE
Corvettes, Frigates only :- GSL
Corvettes only :- CSL, L&T Katupalli possible.
Replenishment Ship, LHD/LPD :- HSL, L&T Katupalli
Carrier :- CSL
Conventional Submarines :- MDL, but maybe L&T Katupalli is possible also.

 

[shade2]

Another promo video for INS Nilgiri, with some extra seconds of footage showing it being built and also opening of VLS cells and the sailors loading shells for the 76mm gun


View: https://x.com/IN_WNC/status/1878691277816107350

 

[shade2]

Y'all nibbiars, are these new "Mothership" Minehunter vessels a full replacement for the current "Minesweeper" boats with FRP hulls?

Navy seems to be interested in such ships, article is from 2023

India Launches Hunt for New MCM Vessels - Naval News

India is currently without a single MCM vessel. The Indian Navy is now looking at procuring MCM motherships.

www.navalnews.com

The Italians also have a hybrid design of the same FRP hull with sweeper plus all the drones in development

Intermarine Wins Contract for Italian Navy's New Generation MCM Vessel - Naval News

Intermarine, a company in the Immsi industrial group (IMS.MI), has signed a contract to study "risk reduction and definition of the project for a new-generation minehunter" for the Italian Navy.

www.navalnews.com

Basically is this new method of use drones to find and blow up mines from a safe distance a straight upgrade over the earlier method of dragging the "sweep" to cut mines from the seabed and then shoot at them from the ship's guns, or are there any drawbacks?

 

[Bleh]

Lovely!


Right one is not possible. The hull starts narrowing at the front & it can't fit BraHmos' length at the sides.

Even 16 would be enough... The fore-section would become too have otherwise & reduce rough- seaworthyness

 

[Fatalis]

Looks like Navy is working on the doctrine of first get the vessels in numbers albit with less firepower and may be later on increase their firepower.

 

[shade2]

Looks like Navy is working on the doctrine of first get the vessels in numbers albit with less firepower and may be later on increase their firepower.

Yes, this is my theory also, the below BTS Navy ship class launched with 32 Mk41 VLS Cells

ROKS Chungmugong Yi Sun-sin (DDH-975) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sometime later they decided to move the Mk41 to the right and add 3x of their own domestic made K-VLS system to the left



Ship now has 56 VLS cells total, that is 32 Mk41 VLS cells and 24 K-VLS cells.

This ship class had additional deck space built in in order to add more VLS later on, most likely our Nilgiris are also the same.


Going only with and Barak-8 combo is long-range and expensive.

For , NASM-MR is in development as a cheaper, lower range alternative and for Barak-8 we all know about VL-SRSAM.

 

[Bleh]

View attachment 21637

We need this as an export model! Wonder why they cut out half the Nilgiri at the middle. A flush roof & covered bay should have been better.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I think missile boats in good numbers still have a role to play but then Navy knows best on how to spend their funding, especially since the funding bottleneck is the "missile" not the boat.

There are several reasons why a blue water navy may not want corvette style ships.

• Range and sea keeping are two major concerns with Corvettes and Missile Boats.

The NGMV (~2500 tons) and the NGC (~1500 tons) with 1 x LM2500 and 2 x Pielstick 12PA 6 STC6 Diesel engines have a range of 2800nm at 25 kn.

The older Kora Class corvette (~1500 tons) with 2 × SEMT Pielstick/Kirloskar 18 PA6V 280 diesel engines can do 3476 nmi at 16 kn.

The Talwar Class frigate (4000 tons) with 1 x Zorya-Mashproekt M7N.1E propulsion plant, 2 × DS-71 cruise gas turbines and 2 × DT-59 boost gas turbines has a range of 4,210 nmi at 14 kn with much more powerful armament and tonnage.

This is important since these vessels need to keep up with Carrier Battle Groups and act as Destroyer Escorts during picket duties.

The more the tonnage, the better your ship handles at higher sea states.

• Smaller vessels like NGC and NGMV are not survivable in a sustained fight

Corvettes and missile boats are not meant to be used in a pitched battle which is what we are looking at against China and perhaps Pakistan.

The Littoral Combat Ship of the USN is essentially a corvette and here is an excerpt on it's survivability.

“Navy surface ships are designed to one of three survivability standards, called Level I (low), Level II (moderate), and Level III (high). Aircraft carriers, cruisers, and destroyers are designed to Level III. Frigates, amphibious ships, and certain underway replenishment (resupply) ships are designed to Level II. Other replenishment ships, as well as mine warfare ships, patrol craft, and support ships are designed to Level I.”

“The Navy decided to design the LCS to what it calls a Level 1+ survivability standard, which is greater than the Level I standard to which the Navy’s current patrol craft and mine warfare ships were designed, but less than the Level II standard to which the Navy’s current Oliver Hazard Perry (FFG-7)-class frigates were designed, ”

https://news.usni.org/2013/01/17/navy-responds-pentagon-lcs-survivability-claims

• Limited armament and sensors

You have a much lower Return on Investment per tonnage compared to corvettes based on the number of missiles and sensors you can employ.

This is very important since only a limited number of yards can produce what you want. I'm not completely sold on L&T Kattupalli despite their 90 hr/week work ethics due to no experience in making such ships previously.

Now taking all of the points above, if I have to choose between 12 corvettes or 4 frigates, which would be more feasible for the Indian Navy?

 

[shade2]

There are several reasons why a blue water navy may not want corvette style ships.

• Range and sea keeping are two major concerns with Corvettes and Missile Boats.

The NGMV (~2500 tons) and the NGC (~1500 tons) with 1 x LM2500 and 2 x Pielstick 12PA 6 STC6 Diesel engines have a range of 2800nm at 25 kn.

The older Kora Class corvette (~1500 tons) with 2 × SEMT Pielstick/Kirloskar 18 PA6V 280 diesel engines can do 3476 nmi at 16 kn.

The Talwar Class frigate (4000 tons) with 1 x Zorya-Mashproekt M7N.1E propulsion plant, 2 × DS-71 cruise gas turbines and 2 × DT-59 boost gas turbines has a range of 4,210 nmi at 14 kn with much more powerful armament and tonnage.

This is important since these vessels need to keep up with Carrier Battle Groups and act as Destroyer Escorts during picket duties.

The more the tonnage, the better your ship handles at higher sea states.

• Smaller vessels like NGC and NGMV are not survivable in a sustained fight

Corvettes and missile boats are not meant to be used in a pitched battle which is what we are looking at against China and perhaps Pakistan.

The Littoral Combat Ship of the USN is essentially a corvette and here is an excerpt on it's survivability.



https://news.usni.org/2013/01/17/navy-responds-pentagon-lcs-survivability-claims

• Limited armament and sensors

You have a much lower Return on Investment per tonnage compared to corvettes based on the number of missiles and sensors you can employ.

This is very important since only a limited number of yards can produce what you want. I'm not completely sold on L&T Kattupalli despite their 90 hr/week work ethics due to no experience in making such ships previously.

Now taking all of the points above, if I have to choose between 12 corvettes or 4 frigates, which would be more feasible for the Indian Navy?

Thanks for the detailed explanation, I guess this is the reason why the US and the EU Big 5 navies don't bother with corvettes for their own purposes( export only ), USN is destroyer only and the EU ones are destroyers and frigates.

btw NGC is supposed to be 3500+ tons plus, since Kamorta was 3300 tons of displacement.

 

[Flanker]

next two years will be nice for IN... made this ok looking infographic so some of u lot may post it in some other social media to piss off turkroaches.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Being Blue Water doesn't mean losing Green Water, on the contrary it means so good of a Green Water that you can spare vessels for expeditionary roles.

12 corvettes

- to prowl the whole IOR; from Arabian sea to beyond Andaman & Nicobar. These smaller, but numerous vessels would have a bit of everything (324mm for ASuW, atleast 4x AShMs, Okay-ish ADS) to act as hunter killer for submarines and trawlers.
- this can also form the first layer of defensive response, forming a QRF.
- all these at the expense of limited endurance and AOR limited to coast. But in emergency can also be used for hit-and-run attacks.

Our Coast Guard is abysmally armed and on top of everything, there no "reconfigurable" vessels that can be switched between policing and combat based on peace/war like say PLAN. So you need vessels for these too.

4 frigates

- these have endurance so these are what would accompany carriers; form the second layer of offensive force
- assuming we're Blue Water Navy, we'd need occasional deployment to protect shipping lanes or act as escorts. This is where Frigates can shine; have a endurance of destroyers but won't compromise the CSG as much as sending two AD destroyer would. The World recently saw this while dealing with Houthis.

Also you've to account for the rule of third.
Generally, at any given time only ⅓ of your vessels would be available, ⅓ in transit and ⅓ under maintenance.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

There are several reasons why a blue water navy may not want corvette style ships.

• Range and sea keeping are two major concerns with Corvettes and Missile Boats.

The NGMV (~2500 tons) and the NGC (~1500 tons) with 1 x LM2500 and 2 x Pielstick 12PA 6 STC6 Diesel engines have a range of 2800nm at 25 kn.

The older Kora Class corvette (~1500 tons) with 2 × SEMT Pielstick/Kirloskar 18 PA6V 280 diesel engines can do 3476 nmi at 16 kn.

The Talwar Class frigate (4000 tons) with 1 x Zorya-Mashproekt M7N.1E propulsion plant, 2 × DS-71 cruise gas turbines and 2 × DT-59 boost gas turbines has a range of 4,210 nmi at 14 kn with much more powerful armament and tonnage.

This is important since these vessels need to keep up with Carrier Battle Groups and act as Destroyer Escorts during picket duties.

The more the tonnage, the better your ship handles at higher sea states.

• Smaller vessels like NGC and NGMV are not survivable in a sustained fight

Corvettes and missile boats are not meant to be used in a pitched battle which is what we are looking at against China and perhaps Pakistan.

The Littoral Combat Ship of the USN is essentially a corvette and here is an excerpt on it's survivability.



https://news.usni.org/2013/01/17/navy-responds-pentagon-lcs-survivability-claims

• Limited armament and sensors

You have a much lower Return on Investment per tonnage compared to corvettes based on the number of missiles and sensors you can employ.

This is very important since only a limited number of yards can produce what you want. I'm not completely sold on L&T Kattupalli despite their 90 hr/week work ethics due to no experience in making such ships previously.

Now taking all of the points above, if I have to choose between 12 corvettes or 4 frigates, which would be more feasible for the Indian Navy?

A modern equivalent of the Vidyut/Osa class missile boats, backed by airborn ISR and land based Radars from Andaman islands might be a very good investment in keeping an eye on large picnic parties coming through the malacca gap. Inclined launchers, vshorads, 30mm bow CIWS. No nonsense ships under 1000 ton displacement. Print them and post them around strategic isles far from mainland.