Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Ayan Barat]

Indian Navy's Stealth Frigates Get New Firepower - Indian Defence Research Wing

SOURCE: IDRW.ORG The Indian Navy’s commitment to enhancing its naval capabilities is evident with the significant upgrades to the new batch of Talwar Class frigates. These upgrades include the introduction of the A-192M Naval Gun and a shift from the twin-arm launcher to a Vertical Launch System...

idrw.org

View attachment 20792

It took them 15 days to get this breaking news.

But that's not the best part, because here Chacha is launching VL-SRSAM and Barak-8 from a VLS designed for just Shtil-1
"Perhaps even more transformative is the switch from a twin-arm launcher to a Vertical Launch System...allows for the deployment of a broader array of missiles, including the Vertical Launch Short Range Air to Air Missile (VLSRAAM) and Medium Range Surface to Air Missiles (MRSAM)."

Both arm and VLS version of Shtil-1 has exactly the same magazine capacity, 24 rounds but no
"Increased Increased Capacity: More missiles can be stored and launched from a VLS, enhancing the frigate’s ability to manage multiple threats simultaneously."

And on top of everything the audacity to say this
"NOTE : Article cannot be reproduced without written permission of idrw.org in any form even for YouTube Videos to avoid Copy right strikes. Websites doing illegal reproductions will get DMCA and Legal Notices."

Arre Chacha, mati mari gayi hogi kisi ki jo copy karega aapko

Carrier CDG in Goa

Can we keep it

 

[shade2]

It took them 15 days to get this breaking news.

But that's not the best part, because here Chacha is launching VL-SRSAM and Barak-8 from a VLS designed for just Shtil-1
"Perhaps even more transformative is the switch from a twin-arm launcher to a Vertical Launch System...allows for the deployment of a broader array of missiles, including the Vertical Launch Short Range Air to Air Missile (VLSRAAM) and Medium Range Surface to Air Missiles (MRSAM)."

Both arm and VLS version of Shtil-1 has exactly the same magazine capacity, 24 rounds but no
"Increased Increased Capacity: More missiles can be stored and launched from a VLS, enhancing the frigate’s ability to manage multiple threats simultaneously."

And on top of everything the audacity to say this
"NOTE : Article cannot be reproduced without written permission of idrw.org in any form even for YouTube Videos to avoid Copy right strikes. Websites doing illegal reproductions will get DMCA and Legal Notices."

Arre Chacha, mati mari gayi hogi kisi ki jo copy karega aapko

Can we keep it

For the past 15 days they were posting made up bullshit articles that's why.

 

[Charlie]

It took them 15 days to get this breaking news.

But that's not the best part, because here Chacha is launching VL-SRSAM and Barak-8 from a VLS designed for just Shtil-1
"Perhaps even more transformative is the switch from a twin-arm launcher to a Vertical Launch System...allows for the deployment of a broader array of missiles, including the Vertical Launch Short Range Air to Air Missile (VLSRAAM) and Medium Range Surface to Air Missiles (MRSAM)."

Both arm and VLS version of Shtil-1 has exactly the same magazine capacity, 24 rounds but no
"Increased Increased Capacity: More missiles can be stored and launched from a VLS, enhancing the frigate’s ability to manage multiple threats simultaneously."

And on top of everything the audacity to say this
"NOTE : Article cannot be reproduced without written permission of idrw.org in any form even for YouTube Videos to avoid Copy right strikes. Websites doing illegal reproductions will get DMCA and Legal Notices."

Arre Chacha, mati mari gayi hogi kisi ki jo copy karega aapko

Can we keep it

While we are at it, can we put s400 into the list as well !!

 

[Miss Firing]

26 Rafale-M + 3 scorpene subs -> 10 Bil USD

With PM Modi expected to visit Paris in February, deals to buy Rafale fighter jets, Scorpene subs for Navy reach final stage​

PM invited to visit AI summit in France on February 10 and 11; deals worth over $10 billion; expected to be placed for approval before Cabinet Committee​

With PM Modi expected to visit Paris in February, deals to buy Rafale fighter jets, Scorpene subs for Navy reach final stage

India-France defence deals worth $10 billion, including Rafale jets and Scorpene submarines, to be finalized before PM Modi's Paris visit.

www.thehindu.com

 

[vampyrbladez]

From the Cochin Shipyard Limited (Annual Report) FY 2024.



ASW - SWC

 

[vampyrbladez]

But then he'd crib every single day for the rest of his life that there's no RBU-6000 on his private island and how his island is defenseless against a PLAN submarine assault. Leave it

Won't be cost effective to use AIM-132s in CIWS role unless there's a local production line and also a substantial order from IAF and IN to achieve economies of scale. Just for an idea, as of now some 1,10,000 Sidewinders have been produced.

Not much is available in public domain and whatever is seems to be is just fan-made.

So the only thing I can do is shitpost. The BrahMos seeker made by DataPatterns have a detection range of 20km and gimbal steeriabilty to ±40° in azimuth. So the S-maneuver can't be initiated before radar lock on (20km) and the max yaw can't be more than 40° from the boresight as it would break the lock. In short...
View attachment 20757
But here's my doubt; in head-on engagement shouldn't the "efforts" done by an interceptor be lesser? Like
View attachment 20752
• BrahMos is detected
coming head-on
• an interceptor is launched immediately and 6-7sec later the BrahMos starts the first leg of its maneuver
• it sharply turns 40° and travels some 5km. For BrahMos it's a considerable effort
• but to maintain a LoS the interceptor missile needs to just gradually change its yaw to a maximum of only 16°

Furthermore, as I've mentioned earlier that it's not a dynamic maneuver but rather just a preprogrammed path. If a fighter is maneuvering then nothing's is certain, it can randomly go anywhere. But in case of BrahMos no matter what S, F, K maneuver it does, in the end it'll still come towards the ship only. So this too helps in making interception slightly easier. If BrahMos is starting a S-maneuver then pitch up the interceptor instead of following it and wait for it to finish it's electric boogaloo, once two or there turns have been made then pitch down your interceptor and slam from above.

There's no data on this but generally I've seen a 10-15sec delay between two subsequent launches from the same unit. But these are for bigger Tomahawk sized missile, for ESSM this should be smaller. But even if we don't consider this then also it won't be a serious factor as there are atleast 8 other units so with all the VLS firing you'd get a sustained rate of fire of a missile every 1.25sec.
So in 5 sec a BrahMos would've covered (5*3*340) = 5.1km but you too would have launched (5/1.25) = 4 interceptors.

Instead of a simple 32 interceptor Vs one missile, this thing highlights something else.

Russian attacks are always in swarms with multiple types of weapons fired at the same time; subsonic cruise, Shaheds, aero-ballistic and supersonic AShMs. So if we too are successful in creating a similar scenario for a Type-055 then we can also lower their effectiveness to just may be 16:1 for LR-AShM.
To be honest, only then we'd be able to do

What about azimuth axis (Z) for the 'S' maneuver for the BrahMos.

Doesn't this suddenly complicate things for an interceptor. Even a TVC equipped one would be hard pressed to gain a probability of intercept of around .8 - .9 depending on number of missiles fired.

 

[Ayan Barat]

From the Cochin Shipyard Limited (Annual Report) FY 2024.

View attachment 20883

ASW - SWC

Decently armed for a 300 ton corvette
/s

 

[Fatalis]

Decently armed for a 300 ton corvette
/s

View attachment 20891

300 tonnes?

Mate, she is close to 900 tonnes.

 

[shade2]

26 Rafale-M + 3 scorpene subs -> 10 Bil USD

With PM Modi expected to visit Paris in February, deals to buy Rafale fighter jets, Scorpene subs for Navy reach final stage​

PM invited to visit AI summit in France on February 10 and 11; deals worth over $10 billion; expected to be placed for approval before Cabinet Committee​

With PM Modi expected to visit Paris in February, deals to buy Rafale fighter jets, Scorpene subs for Navy reach final stage

India-France defence deals worth $10 billion, including Rafale jets and Scorpene submarines, to be finalized before PM Modi's Paris visit.

www.thehindu.com

View attachment 20857

Let's hope the deal actually does get signed, patrakars were making all fanboys garam with the same news in 2023, extra planes are never bad and we do need more subs till the Admirals have GoI sign the contract for their precious P75I Deutsche U-booten.

 

[shade2]

Decently armed for a 300 ton corvette
/s

View attachment 20891

Per you what should be replacement for RBU?

In terms of role i mean, for the space 2x of those takes people suggest additional VLS modules, RAM Launcher style missile CIWS or even a raised platform with Phalanx/Goalkeeper style gun ciws.

 

[Ayan Barat]

300 tonnes?

Mate, she is close to 900 tonnes.

"/s"

Per you what should be replacement for RBU?

In terms of role i mean, for the space 2x of those takes people suggest additional VLS modules, RAM Launcher style missile CIWS or even a raised platform with Phalanx/Goalkeeper style gun ciws.

For smaller or dedicated ASuW ships, like this ASW-SWC with just one RBU-6000 module I don't think there's any need to completely replace them. Instead we can focus on improving the range of individual rockets and also making low cost, guided rockets. No matter how much I hate them, there's no denying that no other ASuW weapon offers a magazine depth of 72 rounds and this rapid rate of fire. So it's just better to use this potential.

But on bigger ships that are planned for dedicated anti-ship or air-defence roles, it's better to have 16x BrahMos or 16x Nirbhay or 32x Barak-8 in place of these.

 

[Fatalis]

"/s"

For smaller or dedicated ASuW ships, like this ASW-SWC with just one RBU-6000 module I don't think there's any need to completely replace them. Instead we can focus on improving the range of individual rockets and also making low cost, guided rockets. No matter how much I hate them, there's no denying that no other ASuW weapon offers a magazine depth of 72 rounds and this rapid rate of fire. So it's just better to use this potential.

But on bigger ships that are planned for dedicated anti-ship or air-defence roles, it's better to have 16x BrahMos or 16x Nirbhay or 32x Barak-8 in place of these.

IN says they operate their ships in a battle group formation but all the ships are having same armament and somewhat similar capabilities then what support one ship provides to other. It is just my thought but they should have a dedicated roles. One for ASuW and other for AAW.

 

[Ayan Barat]

IN says they operate their ships in a battle group formation but all the ships are having same armament and somewhat similar capabilities then what support one ship provides to other. It is just my thought but they should have a dedicated roles. One for ASuW and other for AAW.

Arrreee there are so many things that IN can do but everytime they get leeway because of how indigenous they're.

Imagine the benefits of ordering 30 ships of a same class. The economies of scale.

A 100m long, 11m wide and 3.5 meter deep ship that would weigh 1,500t in its lightest configuration and around 2,000t in heaviest. In the bow you'd have a 76mm SRGM, then an empty space (A), stealth superstructure which won't be a big deal given small size, an integrated mast made (cheaply) by slapping 4x X-BMFR with a rotating S-band on top, two AK-630s mid-ship, a decent helideck and the helideck on a raised platform with the "lower floor" being a huge empty space (B).

• coast guard can use the empty space (A) for storing fuel or ration to increase patrolling duration. Empty space (B) for multiple large RHIBs.
• navy can add 32x VL-SRSAM and 2x quad inclined launcher in this empty space (A)
• empty space (B) can be equipped with a towed sonar and torpedo tubes for ASuW role
• but this can also be utilized as a makeshift hospital in a carrier strike group or destroyer squadron
• or you can add accomodation for 100 or troops to do SpecOps mission

With just one carefully planned modular ship you can not just do everything from ASuW to AShW to patrolling but both coast guard and navy can use it. You can easily replace Sukanya, Veer, Khukri and Kora (some 20 ships) in Indian Navy and Sankalp, Vishwast and Samar (some 10 ships) in Indian Coast Guard.

And perhaps the most important part, in case of a war you can absorb these 10 coast guard ships into navy and convert them under a week for full fledged naval combat.

But won't happen, it's just Ayan Barat ke haseen sapne...

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Imagine the benefits of ordering 30 ships of a same class. The economies of scale.

Navy likes it's ships in batches with incremental improvements. In true Indian efficiency, by the time the 30th ship slides into water, the design would already have a replacement in development. It took 8 years to deliver D66. PLAN's 055 class cruiser Dalian was built and delivered in 5 years.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Navy likes it's ships in batches with incremental improvements. In true Indian efficiency, by the time the 30th ship slides into water, the design would already have a replacement in development. It took 8 years to deliver D66. PLAN's 055 class cruiser Dalian was built and delivered in 5 years.

But if you've a modular design then there's no need for any incremental improvement in batches like P-15 A and B; all improvements can be fleet wise.

It's even better than the current "I've taken deliveries of 3 vessels with mediocre arm launcher but now I want the remaining 3 with this VLS" because now you can retrofit this new SAM in every single ship instead of just the later batches.

Like if today US Navy comes up with a new hypersonic missile that can be launched from Mk-41 VLS then even USS Princeton, commissioned in 1989 would be able to use it with minimal modification because of its modular architecture.

As for timeline, frankly it's just a will issue not a resource issue. CSL, HSL, Mazgaon, GRSE and GSL; all five can easily make these kind of small 2,000t vessels...so rope in all of them. Back in 2015, it took GRSE 9 years to launch all four Kamortas so I'm sure today, for a lighter ship it should be lesser.

 

[shade2]

At 1:30 there is a pic of the current INS Nilgiri from the side


View: https://x.com/IndiannavyMedia/status/1876456221206859877

 

[Blood+]

But then he'd crib every single day for the rest of his life that there's no RBU-6000 on his private island and how his island is defenseless against a PLAN submarine assault. Leave it

Wo bhi lagwa denge, kyaa problem hai?? Between the members ourselves, I believe we can put together a contraption like that out of scrap metal, electronics from old washing machines and home cooked explosives.

So the only thing I can do is shitpost. The BrahMos seeker made by DataPatterns have a detection range of 20km and gimbal steeriabilty to ±40° in azimuth.

Wait, wasn't there a tweet about this X band seeker with range up to 60 (or was it 70) kms against large vessels?? Anyway, the range is not really relevant here since the electric boogaloo is supposed to be performed in the terminal phase anyway.

So the S-maneuver can't be initiated before radar lock on (20km) and the max yaw can't be more than 40° from the boresight as it would break the lock. In short...
View attachment 20757

Great point, just what is expected out of you. Now, to business -
1. The maneuver doesn't have to be in a single plane!! The missile can be made to bank at a compound angle as the gimbal can be steered in the vertical axis as well.

2. More importantly, just because the steering limit is set at 40 degrees, doesn't mean your maneuver has to be restricted within that limit as well!! I mean, you can afford to lose track (momentarily) in this case. After all, it's a large ass destroyer/ frigate we are talking about here, it's going nowhere, it's not a fighter darting around in the air in Brownian motion at Mach 1.8!!

The Naval Strike Missile supposedly does the same, only cranked up to a even higher degree.

But here's my doubt; in head-on engagement shouldn't the "efforts" done by an interceptor be lesser?

Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that it's coming straight at you. No in the sense that it's coming straight at you at Mach 3, which means you as the interceptor will have even less time to react and orient yourself!!

Like
View attachment 20752
• BrahMos is detected
coming head-on
• an interceptor is launched immediately and 6-7sec later the BrahMos starts the first leg of its maneuver
• it sharply turns 40° and travels some 5km. For BrahMos it's a considerable effort
• but to maintain a LoS the interceptor missile needs to just gradually change its yaw to a maximum of only 16°

If it's an HQ-10, then yeah, very likely but a heavy SAM like HHQ-9??

Furthermore, as I've mentioned earlier that it's not a dynamic maneuver but rather just a preprogrammed path. If a fighter is maneuvering then nothing's is certain, it can randomly go anywhere. But in case of BrahMos no matter what S, F, K maneuver it does, in the end it'll still come towards the ship only. So this too helps in making interception slightly easier. If BrahMos is starting a S-maneuver then pitch up the interceptor instead of following it and wait for it to finish it's electric boogaloo, once two or there turns have been made then pitch down your interceptor and slam from above.

Nah, by that time, it'll like be too late. Do keep in mind that the maneuver happens fairly late in the end game. Their best bet would be to intercept the BrahMos BEFORE it can start its boogaloo.

There's no data on this but generally I've seen a 10-15sec delay between two subsequent launches from the same unit. But these are for bigger Tomahawk sized missile, for ESSM this should be smaller. But even if we don't consider this then also it won't be a serious factor as there are atleast 8 other units so with all the VLS firing you'd get a sustained rate of fire of a missile every 1.25sec.
So in 5 sec a BrahMos would've covered (5*3*340) = 5.1km but you too would have launched (5/1.25) = 4 interceptors.

Instead of a simple 32 interceptor Vs one missile, this thing highlights something else.

Russian attacks are always in swarms with multiple types of weapons fired at the same time; subsonic cruise, Shaheds, aero-ballistic and supersonic AShMs. So if we too are successful in creating a similar scenario for a Type-055 then we can also lower their effectiveness to just may be 16:1 for LR-AShM.
To be honest, only then we'd be able to do

Can't really argue too much there, I mean I kinda reached the same conclusion in my Andaman hedge hog brain fart.

 

[shade2]

At 1:30 there is a pic of the current INS Nilgiri from the side


View: https://x.com/IndiannavyMedia/status/1876456221206859877

Some other nibbiar has already got a screengrab


View: https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1876554258348441755



It looks very sem2sem as P15A/B, the render made it seem squished

 

[Ayan Barat]

It looks very sem2sem as P15A/B, the render made it seem squished

Took you only an year to realise this...impressive my Guy

Wo bhi lagwa denge, kyaa problem hai??

Wo sab to khair thik hai, par Sir hain kahan!? On Sunday he was going to reply in an hour...Tuesday is almost gone. And most importantly, how the heck he makes such strong drink!? Medical grade pure ethanol!!!

Wait, wasn't there a tweet about this X band seeker with range up to 60 (or was it 70) kms against large vessels??

Well it can very well track big ahh warships at that range but I was just going with this image

Don't know how authentic it is

1. The maneuver doesn't have to be in a single plane!!

Not gonna answer you, would rather answer Vampyrbladez. My Man has put some serious efforts in the graphs

What about azimuth axis (Z) for the 'S' maneuver for the BrahMos.

Azimuth
Do you mean elevation!?
My estimation was already based around azimuth

gimbal steeriabilty to ±40° in azimuth

A maneuver including both elevation and azimuth is very much possible and might be what a BrahMos actually does. But the reason I didn't consider that was because it would've been more favourable for the interceptor than the BrahMos itself; because as long as all its moves are going on in the azimuth (probably the xy plane in your model) it's in sea skimming mode, hidden within the clutters. As you start moving too much in the elevation (the yx plane) it becomes easier to see you on the radar.

2. More importantly, just because the steering limit is set at 40 degrees, doesn't mean your maneuver has to be restricted within that limit as well!! I mean, you can afford to lose track (momentarily) in this case.

Definitely you can't "shake off" an AShM by out maneuvering your 7,000t destroyer at 9g. Also as the missile has an INS, it'll pretty easily steer back to lock on. But here comes the tricky part for the missile, once the lock is broken and then required, the missile has no idea to verify whether it's still the same warship or...

...or may be...

Naval Strike Missile can do these stunts because it's using an IIR seeker. So even with flares it would be bit tough to deceive it as it can differentiate the shape of a warship from a single bright spot of a flare.

No in the sense that it's coming straight at you at Mach 3, which means you as the interceptor will have even less time to react and orient yourself!!

But for most parts it depends on the interceptor that how fast it can react. Like for something with TVC or lateral thrusters, say a Tor this "reorientation" time can be extremely less

If it's an HQ-10, then yeah, very likely but a heavy SAM like HHQ-9??

Chinese won't be this dumb to fire an electric pole sized S-300 missile when a Mach 3 AShM is just 20km away.
Only way a HHQ-9 would be justified is if somehow they manage to detect the BrahMos at 80-100km range by AWACS maybe. If not that then it's just FM-3000N and HQ-10s. And also a ton of thoughts and prayers.

Nah, by that time, it'll like be too late. Do keep in mind that the maneuver happens fairly late in the end game.

I guess we both have reached a stalemate in our argument of how difficult it'd be to counter BrahMos's maneuverability.
The only way to break this stalemate would be if some dev manush gifts me ANSYS so that I can simulate a BrahMos interception.

 

[Blood+]

Chinese won't be this dumb to fire an electric pole sized S-300 missile when a Mach 3 AShM is just 20km away.
Only way a HHQ-9 would be justified is if somehow they manage to detect the BrahMos at 80-100km range by AWACS maybe. If not that then it's just FM-3000N and HQ-10s. And also a ton of thoughts and prayers.

I guess we both have reached a stalemate in our argument of how difficult it'd be to counter BrahMos's maneuverability.
The only way to break this stalemate would be if some dev manush gifts me ANSYS so that I can simulate a BrahMos interception.

Nah, no stalemate at all. My whole argument was based around the assumption that you were talking about HHQ-9s. But since that ain't been the case, there is nothing to disagree with.

By the way, you can use ANSYS??!! You a mech engineer or something??