Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Gslv Mk3]

This is essentially American Nilgiri Class



And their project management is pretty bad to say the least.

The Navy's Constellation-Class Mess Is Only Beginning

The major changes the Navy forced upon the designers of the Constellation-class have compromised the speed and reliability of the class.

nationalinterest.org

 

[Blood+]

I don't think we'll carry 108 SAMs even it the ship can house them. 48 I said because again it's a reasonable standard number.

P-17B maybe. Let's see.

I'm not saying you must carry 100+ SAMs at all times, NO!! I'm just saying that you keep the option open!! It's better to have the capacity and not needing it than the other way around, won't you agree??

 

[Fatalis]

 

[shade2]

DBFers, before you keep going on for more missiles, let us ask the question of how many times do we really fire those high priced missiles and how long those missiles last when the ships go out on sea. If they are really expensive and we are mostly in peace time, there is no way in hell that MoD would authorize a huge purchase of missiles of the majority of them goes unused. What I suspect is that the IN has created the space for more missiles and are working on an in ship reloading VLS capability so you really don't need to create more VLS space on deck. Just create the space for more magazines and be able to reload those missiles into the VLS space as needed. That way IN during peacetime do not need to carry a large contingent of missiles out to sea and blowing up the IN's budget.

Seems like a lot of work (and not really optimum either) for a whole lot of nothing, though. Why not just put in the VLS modules and leave them empty until the need arises??!!

As i've said before from the SAM perspective they seem to be waiting on the VL-SRSAM to fill the gap.
For all you know the VLS is also imported from Israel so additional kharcha there, besides you'll be locked to only more Barak8s with those

They might also, no they have to build a UVLS system with two lengths to house

• VL-SRSAM( including quad packing ) - 40-50km range
• Barak-8 - 80-100km range
• Project Kusha M1 - 150km range

and for the longer UVLS

• 
• LRAShM( the hypersonic one which was tested some months back)
• NASM-MR
• Nirbhay
• Project Kusha m2 & m3( these ones are for BMD i think )

 

[Blood+]

As i've said before from the SAM perspective they seem to be waiting on the VL-SRSAM to fill the gap.
For all you know the VLS is also imported from Israel so additional kharcha there, besides you'll be locked to only more Barak8s with those

They might also, no they have to build a UVLS system with two lengths to house

• VL-SRSAM( including quad packing ) - 40-50km range
• Barak-8 - 80-100km range
• Project Kusha M1 - 150km range

and for the longer UVLS

• 
• LRAShM( the hypersonic one which was tested some months back)
• NASM-MR
• Nirbhay
• Project Kusha m2 & m3( these ones are for BMD i think )

You'll need three, rest is on point.

 

[Bleh]

This has been a long-standing issue.

A case for combat-capable offshore patrol vessels (OPVs)

www.ajaishukla.com

OPVs are negligibly armed, even though the Union War Book mandates that all its ships will come under the navy as soon as war breaks out. That means these vessels should be prepared to participate in full-fledged naval combat.
“The problem of insufficiently armed OPVs has been troubling the navy for some years now. Vessels that displace over 2,000 tonnes must carry sufficient armament to be able to fight,” says former navy chief, Admiral Arun Prakash (Retired).

This apprehension is not just confined to OPVs. Critics of Indian warship design argue that the navy’s capital warships are under-weaponised as well.

You see that tiny thing beside the massive 6000+ & 7000+ ton ships?.. That can kill them both if it can avoid detection.

As I was ranting yesterday, we need small stealthy Cutters with raised-decks to fit missiles. Our OPVs have 5000km range at 2000t, that's enough to dominate every-waters north of the Equator!

 

[Ayan Barat]

View attachment 22015

So let's discuss VLS the missile you'd put in those VLS

If we consider the frontline ships we'd having in near future then we'd having Talwar, Shivalik, Nilgiri, Delhi, Kolkata, Visakhapatnam, NGC and NGMV.

• For both land attack and anti-ship role you've one missile and you'd need 384 of these missile.
• Primary air-defence comes in the form of Big Yahoodi missile with atleast 576 of them.
• Secondary air-defence, primarily on the Ruski ships are from 363 missiles.
• Some ships have Smol Yahoodi missile for secondary air-defence, 192 of these.

Now the most important part

> Even if we consider per unit cost to be $5 million then total cost of BrahMos would be $1.92 billion.
[if backward calculated from the 220 piece Navy order worth $2.3 billion then it'd a whopping $10 million; I went with the 2007 Army order of 72 (one reg) for $83 million and then adjusted it for inflation]
> It's almost impossible to calculated the price of Shtil-1 one as there have been no separate order for it; it always came integrated with a ship or as a launch complex. But based on the schema and range it'd be safe to assume that it's atleast $2 million. So total becomes $0.726 billion.
[might be more than this but definitely not less]
> For Barak-8 the unit cost should be around $5 million so for total, it's $2.88 billion.
[backward calculated from $630 million order to equip four (4x32) and $1.28 billion to equip seven (7x32) ships]
> For Barak-1 we've quite an accurate number because of, well...reasons. In 2000, it costed $69 million to get 200 units. Adjust for inflation and it'd be around $1.5 million per shot; total $0.3 billion.
[but chances are low that any further Barak-1 would be ordered, even in case of war]

So for just one complete missile reload of all the frontline ships you'd need to shell out 5.8...approximately $6 billion dollars.
(The total capital outlay in 23-24 budget for all services was $20 billion)

We've yet to see an actual LSCO in naval combat like army and air-force have seen. In LSCO you go through missiles, especially SAMs like there's no tomorrow. Yesterday only the USN released ammunition expenditure report during the 15 months deployment in the Gulf; 120 SM-2, 80 SM-6 and 20 for ESSM and SM-3 combined. This much HOUTHIS, no Russia, no China...just a bunch of terrorists.

Definitely a counter argument to this is that just have VLS and no need to fill them during peace time, multiple people here including me have proposed this.

But still this high cost becomes one of the biggest factor in practical sense as even if you have empty cells, you'd need to buy a missile at some point to replenish it. So on paper we can put 32, 48 or whatever multiple of 8 we like but would we be able to buy them?

NOTE: This article was written by a seriously retarded Guy, proceed with caution.

 

[Blood+]

So let's discuss VLS the missile you'd put in those VLS

If we consider the frontline ships we'd having in near future then we'd having Talwar, Shivalik, Nilgiri, Delhi, Kolkata, Visakhapatnam, NGC and NGMV.

• For both land attack and anti-ship role you've one missile and you'd need 384 of these missile.
• Primary air-defence comes in the form of Big Yahoodi missile with atleast 576 of them.
• Secondary air-defence, primarily on the Ruski ships are from 363 missiles.
• Some ships have Smol Yahoodi missile for secondary air-defence, 192 of these.

Now the most important part

> Even if we consider per unit cost to be $5 million then total cost of BrahMos would be $1.92 billion.
[if backward calculated from the 220 piece Navy order worth $2.3 billion then it'd a whopping $10 million; I went with the 2007 Army order of 72 (one reg) for $83 million and then adjusted it for inflation]
> It's almost impossible to calculated the price of Shtil-1 one as there have been no separate order for it; it always came integrated with a ship or as a launch complex. But based on the schema and range it'd be safe to assume that it's atleast $2 million. So total becomes $0.726 billion.
[might be more than this but definitely not less]
> For Barak-8 the unit cost should be around $5 million so for total, it's $2.88 billion.
[backward calculated from $630 million order to equip four (4x32) and $1.28 billion to equip seven (7x32) ships]
> For Barak-1 we've quite an accurate number because of, well...reasons. In 2000, it costed $69 million to get 200 units. Adjust for inflation and it'd be around $1.5 million per shot; total $0.3 billion.
[but chances are low that any further Barak-1 would be ordered, even in case of war]

So for just one complete missile reload of all the frontline ships you'd need to shell out 5.8...approximately $6 billion dollars.
(The total capital outlay in 23-24 budget for all services was $20 billion)

We've yet to see an actual LSCO in naval combat like army and air-force have seen. In LSCO you go through missiles, especially SAMs like there's no tomorrow. Yesterday only the USN released ammunition expenditure report during the 15 months deployment in the Gulf; 120 SM-2, 80 SM-6 and 20 for ESSM and SM-3 combined. This much HOUTHIS, no Russia, no China...just a bunch of terrorists.

Definitely a counter argument to this is that just have VLS and no need to fill them during peace time, multiple people here including me have proposed this.

But still this high cost becomes one of the biggest factor in practical sense as even if you have empty cells, you'd need to buy a missile at some point to replenish it. So on paper we can put 32, 48 or whatever multiple of 8 we like but would we be able to buy them?

NOTE: This article was written by a seriously retarded Guy, proceed with caution.

Need to find a way to shed the Israeli IP stranglehold over Barak 8s ASAP. No way in hell 5 mil a piece is justified for a missile of that range, regardless of whatever exotic quirks they supposedly bring with them.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Need to find a way to shed the Israeli IP stranglehold over Barak 8s ASAP. No way in hell 5 mil a piece is justified for a missile of that range, regardless of whatever exotic quirks they supposedly bring with them.

Then what about BrahMos? Most of its parts are local yet it costs so much. Compare it to the price of RIM-8 Talos, pretty much the exact BrahMos missile but some four decades before it.

 

[shade2]

Definitely a counter argument to this is that just have VLS and no need to fill them during peace time, multiple people here including me have proposed this.

But still this high cost becomes one of the biggest factor in practical sense as even if you have empty cells, you'd need to buy a missile at some point to replenish it. So on paper we can put 32, 48 or whatever multiple of 8 we like but would we be able to buy them?

Good job with the calculations of $$$ cost of missiles, helps put things into perspective.

As for "empty VLS" it's not a UVLS so those empty VLS will have to either be filled with Barak8 or depending on what empty VLS module we add.


Basically if we add empty VLS we're locked in to only buying 2 types of missiles in the future, better to just let it be Empty Space and add VL-SRSAM or UVLS later on.

If we had UVLS we could have added empty modules like you said, missiles could come in later, whether you don't buy them for budget issues or they take time to arrive because of production ramp up.

 

[shade2]

Need to find a way to shed the Israeli IP stranglehold over Barak 8s ASAP. No way in hell 5 mil a piece is justified for a missile of that range, regardless of whatever exotic quirks they supposedly bring with them.

Aatmanirbhar Bharat: MoD inks Rs 2,960 crore contract with BDL for Medium-Range Surface-to-Air Missiles for Indian Navy

Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a contract with Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for the supply of

pib.gov.in

More money for Israelis for exotic seeker and electronics, should just roll our own seeker and electronics instead.

After all the jooz sell "Barak-8" missiles by themselves to assorted other foreign countries, and the rocket motor wagera was our contribution.

We need a UVLS, Project Kusha missiles, VL-SRSAM and the LRMFR radar to be operationalized to be foreign-vendor-mukt.

 

[Ayan Barat]

They might also, no they have to build a UVLS system with two lengths to house

• VL-SRSAM( including quad packing ) - 40-50km range
• Barak-8 - 80-100km range
• Project Kusha M1 - 150km range

and for the longer UVLS

• 
• LRAShM( the hypersonic one which was tested some months back)
• NASM-MR
• Nirbhay
• Project Kusha m2 & m3( these ones are for BMD i think )

Nice Diwali shopping list you've
• LRAShM will never fit inside a VLS designed for Nirbhay and Nirbhay would waste too much space in VLS designed for LR-AShM. Also, you know how huge LR-AShM is?
• No one bothers putting NASM-MR type missiles in VLS as they waste vertical space. These kinds of missile are almost always used in inclined launchers.
• There's no point in expensive Barak-8 when you always have a 50 and 150km ranged SAM.

A more realistic VLS loadout should be
• BrahMos as AShM
• Nirbhay as LACM
• Kusha as layered ADS
• VL-SRSAM as last layer ADS

You don't need anything more than this

VL-SRSAM or UVLS later on

Flanks and the space near hangar are better choice for these types of short ranged SAMs so you can use your bow while having empty space for VL-SRSAM. Just like Barak-1 were retrofitted.

There's in no UVLS, there's no UVLS in near future. Go through all the cross-section of some half a dozen missiles we've and also the different launch methods we use and you'll realise how tough it is to develop a VLS when you're going backwards.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Something interesting.

INS Traya, a Mobile Missile Coastal Battery (MMCB) Squadron stationed near Mumbai since 1964. Equipped with P 15M Termit missile based coastal batteries.

 

[Blood+]

Then what about BrahMos? Most of its parts are local yet it costs so much. Compare it to the price of RIM-8 Talos, pretty much the exact BrahMos missile but some four decades before it.

First of all, that hasn't been the case up until a few years ago, so there is that. But more importantly, as you already know, it's still a JV and as long as it remains the case, we will have to keep paying hafta to the Russians and quite a hefty one as well.

We need to replace every last piece of screws and rivets and with homemade ones and cut them off completely (needless to say change the name as well). Only then we can even dream about bringing the price down to a remotely bearable level.

 

[Blademaster]

Seems like a lot of work (and not really optimum either) for a whole lot of nothing, though. Why not just put in the VLS modules and leave them empty until the need arises??!!

I don't know. But after realizing the cost of the missiles themselves and the maintenance upkeep I can understand why MoD is reluctant to go for massive numbers of missiles when they have other pending priorities. So IN trying to balance the need with more ships with more missiles may have decided to go for more ships with ample space than more missiles and have the ability to add more missiles later on.

 

[Blood+]

I don't know. But after realizing the cost of the missiles themselves and the maintenance upkeep I can understand why MoD is reluctant to go for massive numbers of missiles when they have other pending priorities. So IN trying to balance the need with more ships with more missiles may have decided to go for more ships with ample space than more missiles and have the ability to add more missiles later on.

Dude, I said the same thing (more or less)!!

 

[Bleh]

Nice Diwali shopping list you've
• LRAShM will never fit inside a VLS designed for Nirbhay and Nirbhay would waste too much space in VLS designed for LR-AShM. Also, you know how huge LR-AShM is?
• No one bothers putting NASM-MR type missiles in VLS as they waste vertical space. These kinds of missile are almost always used in inclined launchers.
• There's no point in expensive Barak-8 when you always have a 50 and 150km ranged SAM.

A more realistic VLS loadout should be
• BrahMos as AShM
• Nirbhay as LACM
• Kusha as layered ADS
• VL-SRSAM as last layer ADS

You don't need anything more than this

Flanks and the space near hangar are better choice for these types of short ranged SAMs so you can use your bow while having empty space for VL-SRSAM. Just like Barak-1 were retrofitted.

There's in no UVLS, there's no UVLS in near future. Go through all the cross-section of some half a dozen missiles we've and also the different launch methods we use and you'll realise how tough it is to develop a VLS when you're going backwards.

Good to see everyone agree with me

I believe that the plan for P-17b to hold more missiles is based on completion timeline of Indian missile projects like Nirbhay & Kusha. The first Nilgiri is will come out under-armed like the first Talwars & will be pumping up the armament in the next lot when desi missiles are standardized.

Additionally the attack & defense power of a ship who should be aligned with the size.

• The smallest Cutters namely ASWSWC, NGMVs & armes-OPVs could rely on NaShM-MR & VL-SRSAM, light torpedos & mines
• the 5kton NGC should be getting there BraHmos-NG & VL-SRSAM, larger torpedos,
• while upto-7kton class Frigates base themselves on BraHos & Nirbhay with LR-SAM or Kusha, SMART etc.
• the larger destroyers need to have AShBMs & BMD.

 

[Fatalis]

A more realistic VLS loadout should be
• BrahMos as AShM
• Nirbhay as LACM
• Kusha as layered ADS
• VL-SRSAM as last layer ADS

The MRSAM system is a standard fit, onboard multiple Indian Naval Ships and is planned to be fitted on the majority of the future platforms planned for acquisition. - From PIB

the 5kton NGC should be getting there BraHmos-NG & VL-SRSAM, larger torpedos,

No VL-SRSAM only MRSAM.

 

[Blood+]

Aatmanirbhar Bharat: MoD inks Rs 2,960 crore contract with BDL for Medium-Range Surface-to-Air Missiles for Indian Navy

Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a contract with Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for the supply of

pib.gov.in

More money for Israelis for exotic seeker and electronics, should just roll our own seeker and electronics instead.

I know and cannot wrap my brain around why we don't replace the seeker already when we have a better replacement available in our country!!

I mean, we have this one, don't we?? Granted, it's for VL-SRSAM but I don't see why a slightly bigger version cannot be made for a desi Barak 8.

 

[Bleh]

The MRSAM system is a standard fit, onboard multiple Indian Naval Ships and is planned to be fitted on the majority of the future platforms planned for acquisition. - From PIB

No VL-SRSAM only MRSAM.

MR-SAM is the Army version of LR-SAM