Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

There is no actual NGD design in public nor are there any confirmed specs.

The 3D render is an Italian DDX design that has been used in a certain IN video showcasing cooperative engagement capability.

Unfortunately we can only speculate and hope( or cope )

There are many complexities to the NGD project, from the actual ship design and building to sub-systems like LRMFR radar and Kusha SAMs which are also under development.

If all goes well however this will be the truly Make in India ship apart from the engines which will be RollsRoyce because of the Admiral's love for IEP.

It's a thought experiment so everything should be taken with 2 spoons of salt.

Integration of an advanced pseudo-VLS based SAM system (possibly designed for 10,000+ ton warships) and MRMFR has been successful as a proof of concept on INS Avnesh.

5xefy9zoaap71.jpg


This is Project Kusha (Indian Barak 8 ER) which replaces/ adds the following components to MRSAM:
  • Astra Mk 2 sensor instead of Israeli one
  • Additional booster phase for more range
  • Range increase from 90 km to 250 km
  • Speed increase from M. 3 to M. 7
PROJECT-KHUSH2.webp

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screenshot-2021-04-19-at-14-16-51-e1618836720542-png.25395


Given the change in length and accounting for a width increase due to the addition of the booster, a bigger VLS is required.

Since the Ship Launch System (SLS) can fit the AD-1 and AD-2 which is twice the length and width of the XRSAM/ Project Kusha (compare with Akash), we can probably fit 2 x XRSAM into a SLS by volume with some modifications.

Given the fact that the NGD will be 10000-13000+ tons I expect the vessel to have enough depth to fit at least 32-48 x SLS sized VLS (64-96 XRSAM).

SAM+Comparisons.jpg


If we remove the booster section of the LRAshM (6-7 m length with a range of >1000 km), we can probably fit it into an SLS style VLS as well with a lightly increased width.

There could be 24-32 x SLS sized VLS dedicated for AShM roles.

GchkLk_aMAE1xN7.jpg
 
It's a thought experiment so everything should be taken with 2 spoons of salt.

Integration of an advanced pseudo-VLS based SAM system (possibly designed for 10,000+ ton warships) and MRMFR has been successful as a proof of concept on INS Avnesh.

5xefy9zoaap71.jpg

Thanks for the INS Anvesh infographic, I knew the LRMFR was tested on it but didn't know how it looks on ship

Also this SLS is under research in the USN also, to add firepower to their San Antonio class LPD,


It's called Mark 70 PDS over there

1737051624099.webp

Chings also have something similar.
 

As good as this is and it very much is this is more of a Modi PR moment than a direction of travel. A similar induction day like this isn’t in the IN’s future for the foreseeable decade because they haven’t moved anywhere with follow ups


View: https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/1879577229522608634?s=46

This is something I’ve been repeating for a while and there are things to commend but this has also been an obvious emerging situation over the last 5 years.

The only real mitigation they seem to take is the P-17B but by the time that’s in the yard there won’t be any other PSC in production, the fits and starts the Indian military procures in is beyond frustrating. There should be a constant stream of equipment preceded by a constant stream of orders

No wonder the IN keeps downgrading their projected fleet size, they’ve given up on being a 200 boat navy I notice
 

Patrakar gives some details about INS Nilgiri straight from it's captain.











The Captain says that the ship is supposed to be guard-rail-mukt so as to stealth-maxxx, but as the pictures we have seen show there are still guard-rails?
Perhaps they are not confident of the "deck-rail system" and need to still test it out further?
Gotta love the IN’s iterative approach, constantly refining unlike retards in the other services that sit still and wait for an a$$ whooping before ‘emergency’ procurements rain


Strales and deck rail to be the ‘standard fit’- harmonisation is something that will make an Indian mil watcher cry


Why was the last of the P-15Bs not delivered with even the ‘old’ SGRM housing though? If it’s the same ‘Covid supply chain’ excuses then it’s further proof India needs to keep buying at scale so ecosystems are more resilient and higher capacity in India
 

Patrakar gives some details about INS Nilgiri straight from it's captain.











The Captain says that the ship is supposed to be guard-rail-mukt so as to stealth-maxxx, but as the pictures we have seen show there are still guard-rails?
Perhaps they are not confident of the "deck-rail system" and need to still test it out further?
There’s a big difference between the existing guard rails which are solid structures and the safety fences they have on the 17As, a decent upgrade I’d say and hope this is a standard feature on every new IN (large) vessel going forward although looking at the renders of the NGMV it doesn’t look like it has the rail system, not very ‘NG’ if so
 

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My version of INS Vishakapatnam

Attack 🕉💪
24 x Brahmos-ER (900 Km)
4 x LR-ASHM (2,500 Km)

Defence 🕉💪
32 x Barak 8
16 x Kusha SAM (Anti hypersonic)
penup_20250117_010008.webp



Hope we replace 2 x Rbu 6000 with 16 x SMART VLS
Screenshot_20250117_015718_Chrome.webp



Kusha SAM will be dedicated hypersonic interceptor and shouldn't be used to shoot Fighter jets & sub sonic threats
images (25).webp



Advanced nation's are Re arming Ships in sea....
Screenshot_20250117_020718_Chrome.webp

By 2032 out GDP would be 10 Tn.....so defense budget of ~250 Bn so navy might get ~80 Bn so cost of missiles shouldn't be constraint.


LR-ASHM with 2,500-3,000 Km range....
Screenshot_20250117_022706_Gallery.webp



So LR-ASHM will Provide good first kill ability to our navy
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RBU Replaced with 16 X SMART VLS and added 2 X MPLS ciws on both sides
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Above version💪🇮🇳🕉:
24 x Brahmos-ER (900 Km)
4 x LR-ASHM (2,500 Km)
32 x Barak 8
16 x Kusha SAM (Anti hypersonic)
16 x SMART missile
2 x MPLS-CIWS


MPLS CIWS can do roles of both CIWS & ASROC even without occupying underdeck space 1000001910.webp


MPLS CIWS on top of helicopter storage
1000001911.webp
 

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View: https://x.com/akki_bauer22_/status/1880070219508637839?s=46

Modi gets it seriously so why is he ordering so few freaking ships?? After the 17A and Talwar order he and his govt have gone to sleep on large warship orders, all they’ve done is a DAC for P-17B so *maybe* orders for that by 2027, keel laying 1-2 years later

none of the ‘NG’ vessels will even be ordered by 2030 is my prediction but production is all that matters, what are Indian yards meant to keep busy on after 2027? OPVs? (SSN/SSBN are a different story). Finally scale is coming but it’s going to get idle and these are perishable skills, even a break of 1-2 years and workforces start to whither and move on, just as things start rolling smoothly they slam the brakes on, just bizarre.

I’ll give props for the 3 additional P75, the lowest of hanging fruits but rarely does India pluck them
 
MPLS CIWS

Good catch, never knew such a thing existed
Per this article it can carry a mix of everything

Each module can house various munitions based on size, including:
  • Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW): AKERON MP ATGMs (2 per module), 70mm or 68mm unguided or laser-guided rockets (at least 10 per module), LMM, loitering munition
  • Anti-Air Warfare (AAW): MISTRAL 3 SAMs (4 per module), LMM, 70mm rockets
  • Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW): Anti-submarine rockets (2–4 per module), depth charges
  • Decoys for protection: CANTO anti-torpedo decoys (2 per pod), SEACLAD decoys, and others

DRDO should be instructed to clone this system
 
As good as this is and it very much is this is more of a Modi PR moment than a direction of travel. A similar induction day like this isn’t in the IN’s future for the foreseeable decade because they haven’t moved anywhere with follow ups


View: https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/1879577229522608634?s=46

This is something I’ve been repeating for a while and there are things to commend but this has also been an obvious emerging situation over the last 5 years.

The only real mitigation they seem to take is the P-17B but by the time that’s in the yard there won’t be any other PSC in production, the fits and starts the Indian military procures in is beyond frustrating. There should be a constant stream of equipment preceded by a constant stream of orders

No wonder the IN keeps downgrading their projected fleet size, they’ve given up on being a 200 boat navy I notice


View: https://x.com/akki_bauer22_/status/1880070219508637839?s=46

Modi gets it seriously so why is he ordering so few freaking ships?? After the 17A and Talwar order he and his govt have gone to sleep on large warship orders, all they’ve done is a DAC for P-17B so *maybe* orders for that by 2027, keel laying 1-2 years later

none of the ‘NG’ vessels will even be ordered by 2030 is my prediction but production is all that matters, what are Indian yards meant to keep busy on after 2027? OPVs? (SSN/SSBN are a different story). Finally scale is coming but it’s going to get idle and these are perishable skills, even a break of 1-2 years and workforces start to whither and move on, just as things start rolling smoothly they slam the brakes on, just bizarre.

I’ll give props for the 3 additional P75, the lowest of hanging fruits but rarely does India pluck them


Modi govt is miserly with defence budget, as a result import-khors get starved in other places and here there is not enough budget for lots of ships or some ships with lots of missiles.

They do seem to be keeping a watch on shipyards getting orders though since CSL has been getting orders for corvettes after Vikrant got commissioned, GSL is building those Talwar class frigates, HSL and L&T are splitting orders for HSL tankers.

MDL should be busy with 3 additional Kalvaris.

Either this year or next we should see progress on NGC or P-17B, NGD is still in design phase i guess
 
Gotta love the IN’s iterative approach, constantly refining unlike retards in the other services that sit still and wait for an a$$ whooping before ‘emergency’ procurements rain


Strales and deck rail to be the ‘standard fit’- harmonisation is something that will make an Indian mil watcher cry


Why was the last of the P-15Bs not delivered with even the ‘old’ SGRM housing though? If it’s the same ‘Covid supply chain’ excuses then it’s further proof India needs to keep buying at scale so ecosystems are more resilient and higher capacity in India

Yes, 16 Strales have been ordered, they have also ordered 23 Lanza-N radars, MF-STAR & Barak-8 is now used across 14 ships( including under construction Nilgiris ), Brahmos is used mostly everywhere, so is the AK-630 and the normal 76 SRGM.

So in terms of "logistics" the IN has a lot of commonality across the fleet.

As for ye olde turret casing for SRGM, they probably planned to have it with Strales but maybe they couldn't get it in time, it will be replaced later on.
 
the nilgiris cost about 900 ish mlns usd
There are discrepancies on the price and also buzz of it going above the budget.
32 x Barak 8
16 x Kusha SAM
Kusha SAM will be dedicated hypersonic interceptor and shouldn't be used to shoot Fighter jets & sub sonic threats
Kusha will be used to shoot fighter and subsonic threats; it's more or less a 1:1 replacement of Barak-8. It's literally what's it's lowest tier missile is supposed to do.
IMG_20250117_112545.webp
SMART VLS
• People are currently having problems with managing the hot launch of Astra from a VLS and SMART has atleast 3,000kg solid propellant.

• But let's assume you somehow make a VLS for that. SMART is based on the schema of Sagarika/Shaurya/Pralay which is already quite long; 9m to be precise. Replace the small compact warhead with a 3m long torpedo and it gets even longer. If we consider the diameter to be 0.75m (typical for this family) the length becomes almost 13m.
IMG_20250117_114015.webp

• That's not all; in cold launching the length of the canister is pretty much the length of the missile and the length of the VLS is pretty much the length of the canister. But in hot launching you need an additional plenum chamber below the missile canister so that exhaust pressure can be reduced otherwise the whole VLS would suffer a catastrophic failure. So add a meter or two for plenum chamber.
IMG_20250117_114256.webp

Vishakhapatnam has a draft 6.5m and already requires a substantial superstructure to accommodate the 9m long BrahMos. We've 6 more metres to account for now.

The only place you can use for this long of a VLS would be adjacent to the hangar but then again you'd have other complications with it. Also this loadout of 16 would decrease, may be even get halved.
Advanced nation's are Re arming Ships in sea....
Not nations, just USA.
USA has approximately 9,000 VLS cell, all interchangeable and dispersed everywhere from Gulf to SCS...yet only in October, 2024 they managed to pull off this feat.

The abysmal cells we currently have are most of the time empty because the production rate and high cost doesn't justify "wasting" missiles by deploying them on ships.
IMG_20250117_120008.webp
So having at sea replenishment capability for just 40 or so ships, armed with three different types of missiles is bit of a far cry given our current priorities.
By 2032 out GDP would be 10 Tn.....so defense budget of ~250 Bn so navy might get ~80 Bn so cost of missiles shouldn't be constraint.
Well it's bit hard to predict because well...VUCA. Current forecast for 2030 is around 7 trillion, but let's just assume it touches 10 trillion.

But even then, it's not how defence budget works.
• currently defence budget is around 2% of GDP so it'd be just 200bn. For an idea, in USA it's 3.5% and in Poland where the national sentiment is of an immediate war, it's 4.7%

2% is already substantial for a nation where more than half of the population is in villages...bump it to 3% without an eminent war and people would start protesting.

• But for the sake of argument, let's say it's 250bn. Then also it's not as simple as dividing 250 by 3 to get 80 for Navy and now Navy would buy missiles worth 80 billion.

In India typically almost 30% of budget goes to pay, 15% to sustenance, 20% for pensions and in remaining you have things like ECHS, coastal security, R&D...ultimately it's just around 30% for capital acquisition.

45% (capital acquisition + sustenance) of 250bn would be 112bn. This the amount you're left with to both buy new guns and ammunition for existing guns; but it's aggregate. So now we'll do the ⅓ you did earlier...37bn.

tl;dr: It's really heartwarming to see "bloody civilians" showing interest in DefTech; especially tinkering with ideas because it eans even if 99 of those ideas are dumb; then also there might be one worth filing an IPR. But as I've always said this, please don't ignore SWaP constraints and the capital requirements.
 
2% is already substantial for a nation where more than half of the population is in villages...bump it to 3% without an eminent war and people would start protesting.

No, this is not some Eurostan for that to happen.
Protests can be contained and people here wouldn't mind enough to get protest mobs, however...

What will happen is the Govt will have to cut from the freebie schemes allocation and that will lead to them losing elections, freebie schemes are the current zeitgeist, can't win without them.

Leaving aside IN, for the other two if any big-ticket imports are made there is also the fear of the opposition screaming SCAAAAAAAAAAM.

The current model of "ship-maxxxing and add the missiles later on" is the way to go.
 
1000149355.webpWhile we keep discussing about India's ambitions defence acquisitions and indigenous aspirations, this is how we in reality. Randomly assuming my caste out of nowhere and hurling abuses by a so called esteemed member of this forum is beyond pathetic. No wonder why we are so behind the Chinese, these snakes shall be eliminated before countering outside threats.
 
If NGC is gonna carry 8 AShMs then no way P-17B won't be getting 16. It's just a matter of time & priorities. They're just gonna roll them out 1st.

Plus maybe Nirbhay ALCM (cold-launch) are awaited. Who knows?

In those MDL/GRSE transcripts they refer to Bravo as "P17A Repeat order" so I think eventually Alpha will resemble Bravo in terms of armament, assuming Bravo comes with like 48x SAMs and 16x AShM from the get-go, optimistically the first Bravo ship is commissioned by 2030-31 that is a good enough timeframe to have ready VL-SRSAM, NASM-MR to up-arm the existing ships
 

View: https://x.com/akki_bauer22_/status/1880070219508637839?s=46

Modi gets it seriously so why is he ordering so few freaking ships?? After the 17A and Talwar order he and his govt have gone to sleep on large warship orders, all they’ve done is a DAC for P-17B so *maybe* orders for that by 2027, keel laying 1-2 years later

none of the ‘NG’ vessels will even be ordered by 2030 is my prediction but production is all that matters, what are Indian yards meant to keep busy on after 2027? OPVs? (SSN/SSBN are a different story). Finally scale is coming but it’s going to get idle and these are perishable skills, even a break of 1-2 years and workforces start to whither and move on, just as things start rolling smoothly they slam the brakes on, just bizarre.

I’ll give props for the 3 additional P75, the lowest of hanging fruits but rarely does India pluck them

I could only find the following updates on P 17B. It seems that an RFI on P 17B could be issued this year (2025) followed by the RFP in 2026 and a contract in late 2027.

  • GRSE - Q1 FY2024
Now, when the project is likely to come, very, very conservative estimate the header could be out maybe by mid of 2025.

  • GRSE - Q2 FY2024
This is in addition to the other projects that the Navy has plans for, the P17 Bravo, projects for which the AON has already been accorded, there is the 7-ship project and the total order value is around Rs. 70,000 crore. So as per the AP timelines, the RFP will be promulgated in the due course. We expect the RFP to come out in the year 2026. This gives you a fair idea about the orders that are on the anvil.
https://www.grse.in/investor-presen...f_Analyst_Meet_Con_Call_for_Q2_FY_24_GRSE.pdf

  • MDL - Q2 FY2024
17 Bravo would be the big-ticket items, which we are looking forward, may be in the next two to three years as you see, that is in the horizon, which is there

I made a table earlier showing projected inductions of vessels into the Indian Navy in the coming years (+ 1-2 years).

  • Shipyard Productivity and Fleet Inductions
The below table with approximations for ship commissioning shows that in the years 2033-2034, there may be no significant warship inductions (excluding submarines).

Commissioning Year/Ship ClassShip Type20242025202620272028202920302031203220332034203520362037203820392040
Vishakhapatnam ClassDestroyer1
Talwar Class (Batch III)Frigate1111
Nilgiri ClassFrigate2221
P 17B ClassFrigate232
NGMVCorvette1221
NGCCorvette1232
NGOPVOPV12233
P 18A/BDestroyer12232
Total(-)14343356400122320
 

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