Indian Small Arms and Weapons

[Ayan Barat]

Sounds right theoretically but not practically
5.56x45mm- Army has literally rejected it
7.62x39mm-our standard no problem with that it has range and punch to kill
7.62x51mm-long range sounds good but they are equipping it with holos and magnifiers how will they use it for DMR then?

It was sarcasm based on the weird reasoning given each time.

A heavier weight 5.56x45mm is capable of killing anything let alone using specialized loading like expanding or fragmentation round for CI-CT ops where you need to kill instantly. 5.56x45mm is showing its true capability in Ukr-Rus conflict where one of the biggest need is to carry as much round as possible. Also whatever threat modern body armour presents can be countered with AP rounds.

7.62x39mm caliber is a useless rounds because of the extreme drop it suffers. It's considered obsolete by the very country that designed it.

7.62x51mm is justified because the engagement range goes well beyond that of 5.56x45mm in the Easter theaters where you have flats with no cover and possibilities of ridgeline to ridgeline combat.
Also having 7.62x51mm rifles are kind of good as now you've ammunition compatibility with your Negev machine gun and sniper/DMRs.

 

[Mr.Evil]

It was sarcasm based on the weird reasoning given each time.

A heavier weight 5.56x45mm is capable of killing anything let alone using specialized loading like expanding or fragmentation round for CI-CT ops where you need to kill instantly. 5.56x45mm is showing its true capability in Ukr-Rus conflict where one of the biggest need is to carry as much round as possible. Also whatever threat modern body armour presents can be countered with AP rounds.

7.62x39mm caliber is a useless rounds because of the extreme drop it suffers. It's considered obsolete by the very country that designed it.

7.62x51mm is justified because the engagement range goes well beyond that of 5.56x45mm in the Easter theaters where you have flats with no cover and possibilities of ridgeline to ridgeline combat.
Also having 7.62x51mm rifles are kind of good as now you've ammunition compatibility with your Negev machine gun and sniper/DMRs.

So basically we are planning in the wrong direction again wow
(Iam going to kms)

 

[mist_consecutive]

View: https://x.com/kilo_spec/status/1828410751456792751?s=61&t=yuvGwS0cN0KJv4VlBwTZFg


View attachment 7786Follow on Order for additional SIG-716 Rifles of MoD have been placed.

Indian Army Orders an Additional 73,000 SIG716 Rifles

www.sigsauer.com

Don't know why fanboys are crying, I personally am pretty happy about the decision.

Our armed forces who look like WW2 soldiers armed with 30-year old awkward orange rifle is getting lightweight, powerful and accurate rifles which they always wanted. Put a powerful scope and you got a decent DMR as well. So why not ?

Ak-203 + Sig72 for frontline infantry. 7.62 X 39mm and 7.62 X 51mm rounds. 7.62 X 51 is common round for both Negev LMG, FN MAG GPMG as well.

Bro what?why?are they even planning or just raw dogging the orders
We will have
5.56 INSAS. 7.62x39mm AK 203. 7.62x51mm Sig 716i

5.56 Negev. 7.62x51mm Negev
(Not including the variants of AK we already use in decent numbers)
Honourable Mention-They chose AK 203 because “Soldiers are more familiar with AK style rifle”but somehow they are repeating orders of an AR STYLE rifle?are the soldiers suddenly comfortable with it now?
Just gonna ignore the Logistics here and order whatever you want.
Again I can be wrong but this looks like a disaster cooking for future wars.

INSAS series will be essentially be replaced. 5.56 Negev, do we really operate that ? AFAIK we operate 7.62mm Negev only.

Also soldiers love AK style rifles for various reasons. No argument about it.

 

[Ayan Barat]

So basically we are planning in the wrong direction again wow
(Iam going to kms)

More or less yes.

The ideal strategy would have been to adopt an intermediate cartridge like 6.5mm Creedmoor or even 6.5mm Grendel and having everything from carbines to machine guns and DMR chambered in it.

The next best solution would have been to have 5.56x45mm for assault rifles and 7.62x51mm for machine guns and DMRs; somthing US has been doing.

But in our case we field four different types of ammunitions; 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x51mm and 7.62x54mmR.

 

[Mr.Evil]

INSAS series will be essentially be replaced. 5.56 Negev, do we really operate that ? AFAIK we operate 7.62mm Negev only.

Also soldiers love AK style rifles for various reasons. No argument about it.

Troops reported issues with its M-LOK handgrip it gets uncomfortable to hold without gloves for too long.

We are already procuring AK203 in 7.62x39mm so a repeat order for 7.62x51mm makes no sense it will complex our logistics even more.

Army said that they want to procure only AK STYLE Rifles because troops are not comfortable with AR STYLE Rifles so now they are contradicting themselves.

Sig 716i was originally procured due to the delay in production of AK 203 now that the production is on track and IRRPL is set to deliver 20k more AK 203s upto dec 2024 this again makes no sense.

 

[Baseplate]

Can anyone genuinely explain why are we giving repeat orders for it when IRRPL is set to deliver 20k ak 203 by dec and seems like on track for delivery?
Iam not even blackpilling this time this repeat order makes no sense in any situation.

5.56 and 7.62x39 will be good against terrorists and Pakistanis who don't have standardized Lvl3 BPJs and Plates .
But against Chinese who have mostly standardized having a gun in your arsenal that can pun through their plates and also hit long distances in areas like Ladakh where distance of engagement can go quite far is a good idea (the latter will also need good optics though ).

 

[Suryavanshi]

Never understood why we couldn't have just one standard issue rifle for the entire 1.5 million standing army.
Multiple nation at a time never had any more than 2 rifles as a standard issue.

The INSAS mess really ruined it for us, we were cutting corners ever since then.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Troops reported issues with its M-LOK handgrip it gets uncomfortable to hold without gloves for too long.

We are already procuring AK203 in 7.62x39mm so a repeat order for 7.62x51mm makes no sense it will complex our logistics even more.

Army said that they want to procure only AK STYLE Rifles because troops are not comfortable with AR STYLE Rifles so now they are contradicting themselves.

Sig 716i was originally procured due to the delay in production of AK 203 now that the production is on track and IRRPL is set to deliver 20k more AK 203s upto dec 2024 this again makes no sense.

Did at any point I say soldiers LOVE Sig ? I just said its good coz they are getting a good rifle. Afterall it is jizya to America at the end of the day.

Also Sig is supposed to be used with vertical grip not underhanded grip which destroys your wrist with prolonged use.

7.62 X 39 is for short range engagement (think jungle warfare), 7.62 X 51 is for long range engagement (think Ladakh / Rajasthan).

 

[Mr.Evil]

Never understood why we couldn't have just one standard issue rifle for the entire 1.5 million standing army.
Multiple nation at a time never had any more than 2 rifles as a standard issue.

The INSAS mess really ruined it for us, we were cutting corners ever since then.

I genuinely believe if we are going for 7.62x39mm go in fully get MGs and everything in that not just one rifle and then different rounds for different weapons

 

[Mr.Evil]

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828457234612838476

 

[Baseplate]

Troops reported issues with its M-LOK handgrip it gets uncomfortable to hold without gloves for too long.

We are already procuring AK203 in 7.62x39mm so a repeat order for 7.62x51mm makes no sense it will complex our logistics even more.

Army said that they want to procure only AK STYLE Rifles because troops are not comfortable with AR STYLE Rifles so now they are contradicting themselves.

Sig 716i was originally procured due to the delay in production of AK 203 now that the production is on track and IRRPL is set to deliver 20k more AK 203s upto dec 2024 this again makes no sense.

The thing about Mlok is that yeah it would hurt if you grip a metal rail in freezing temp , there is a reason why gloves and shrouds exist . Any serious army would have made gloves their standard issue . I have seen even machine gunners without gloves or with finger cut gloves , now if they complain that their hands getting burned due to touching the hot barrel while barrel changing , who is to blame .

Logistic issues will surely arise but , in a war with pak it won't be an issue , they also use HK G3 as standard issue we can salvage that .
Fn Mags our main MMG also use the same ammo just use that if need arises .

well that's why they are meant to be trained . With good training they were running them just fine.

 

[Baseplate]

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828457234612838476

what is he talking about , we literally use 7.62x51 in our FN MAGs , our standard MMGs and we aren't gonna move away from them soon, so surely we are gonna keep making 7.62 .

Even the platoon LMG gunner uses 7.62 Negev .

 

[Mr.Evil]

The thing about Mlok is that yeah it would hurt if you grip a metal rail in freezing temp , there is a reason why gloves and shrouds exist . Any serious army would have made gloves their standard issue . I have seen even machine gunners without gloves or with finger cut gloves , now if they complain that their hands getting burned due to touching the hot barrel while barrel changing , who is to blame .

But we are talking about Indian Army we take pride in not giving basic stuffs to our troops because we are not mineral water army

Logistic issues will surely arise but , in a war with pak it won't be an issue , they also use HK G3 as standard issue we can salvage that .
Fn Mags our main MMG also use the same ammo just use that if need arises .

well that's why they are meant to be trained . With good training they were running them just fine.

The concern was never pakis never were i genuinely believe if we go war with pakis today we will stomp them we have bigger problems than pakis

 

[Baseplate]

But we are talking about Indian Army we take pride in not giving basic stuffs to our troops because we are not mineral water army

The concern was never pakis never were i genuinely believe if we go war with pakis today we will stomp them we have bigger problems than pakis

The biggest issue will be with China as we have no commonality in ammunition with them .

For fighting in an area like Ladakh , If i have to propose give the Sigs to the fire element (also pls give them 4x at least) and AKs to the Maneuver element instead of giving everyone Sigs .
In this way we can use the better range and accuracy of Sigs to our advantage to provide better fire support to our assault teams and the better maneuverability and handling of AKs for the teams fighting up close .

Sigs will consume same ammunition as their Negev's . Surely there will be issues but if planned accordingly it can be done .

 

[Ayan Barat]

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828457234612838476

In early 1960s we adopted new SMLEs in 7.62x51mm and replaced our .303. Then came SLRs in the same caliber and not just being a standard issue rifle of army, it was also procured by police and CAPFs. To supplement the SLRs we adopted Bren Guns in 7.62x51mm, still our standard issue LMG. Then came FN MAGs or as called locally MMGs, from platoons to tanks to bunkers, everyone got a MMG in 7.62x51mm. Replacement of both Bren and MAGs; some 40 thousand machine guns are also supposed to be in 7.62x51mm. Not to mention whenever we'd replace SVDs it would be in 7.62x51mm only.

But ya, I do sometimes wonder whether there's enough ammo to sustain them for the next decade or not. Especially when we've started not just manufacturing NATO spec ammunition but exporting them to USA.

 

[Tactical Doge]

5.56 Negev, do we really operate that ? AFAIK we operate 7.62mm Negev only.

We operate 5.56mm Negev NG-5s, but only in limited capacity in Special Forces units

 

[Corvus Splendens]

J.D. Jones of SSK Industries developed the 6.5x42mm MPC round.

A 5.56x45mm case necked up to 6.5mm. No internal changes required for the receiver, bolt carrier or magazine. Only needs a new barrel to run on existing 5.56 rifles. It allegedly has a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps, out of a 16 inch barrel with a 95gr. round. Compatible with NATO standard 5.56 machinegun belt links. Can load 30 rounds into a Magpull 30 round mag.

 

[Yuyutsu]

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828457234612838476

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQVdKX524qY

sure , very well use of sigs , even the lankans are using live ammo .

 

[Ayan Barat]

J.D. Jones of SSK Industries developed the 6.5x42mm MPC round.
View attachment 7801
A 5.56x45mm case necked up to 6.5mm. No internal changes required for the receiver, bolt carrier or magazine. Only needs a new barrel to run on existing 5.56 rifles. It allegedly has a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps, out of a 16 inch barrel with a 95gr. round. Compatible with NATO standard 5.56 machinegun belt links. Can load 30 rounds into a Magpull 30 round mag.

I'm my opinion 6.5mm Grendel is still the best intermidate caliber you can have without something crazy like 80k psi chamber pressure.

> 123gr bullet at 2400fps in 16" barrel
> excellent ballistic coefficient
> is supersonic at 1000m
> half the recoil of 7.62x51mm
> can be used without major modifications; though you'll be needing PMAG-40 to get 30 rounds capacity

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

There seems to be total lack of clarity on part of Indian Army (IA) regarding their actual doctrinal requirement regarding small arms. However, they were very firm on one issue. Dump the Insas and its successors (including anything that Indian private players comes up with), and import foreign maal.

GoI went ahead with the plan, to satisfy their perennial need to trying to appease Uncle Sam and Ruskis.


The Pakis use G3 as their standard assault rifle, and Type-56 as their carbine.

If we are trying to emulate that, then 6.5L order should have gone to Sigs and 1.45L order should have gone to AK-203. Not the order way round.

This also makes sense since we are trying to procure upto 40k potable MMG in 7.62*51mm, to replace the Bren and FN-Mag.


Also, the AK-203 is bigger in length than the Sig-716. We should have gone for their carbine version (AK-204).

Finally, if IA really intends to use the AK-203 in carbine role, then why is their another parallel procurement plan for 5.56*45 mm carbine?