Indian Small Arms and Weapons (6 Viewers)

[Simon Riley]

On an unrelated note
The 9mm 'CMG' as it is called in the Indian army, is unanimously hated/disliked by everyone, including the instructors, who advice be done with it and never pick it up again in your life

And for good reason

that gun belongs in a musuem

 

[Simon Riley]

@marliii any comments on your experience firing Insas/ak

will you be taught to fire a SIG 716?

 

[Corvus Splendens]

yep, INSAS is quite chonky and mass-ey build of kalashnikov that helps a lot with recoil + muzzle climb mitigation,

for some basic comparison, for some ~18 inch of barrel length,
>Galil ARM, which is LMG-esque full length build of rifle with a folding bipod, and milled receiver construction at it
mass = 4.35 KG
>INSAS 1B, just full length assault rifle in stamped sheet metal construction (should be lighter),
mass = 4.018 KG



so it's a hunk-o-metal build that mostly keeps recoil and muzzle climb in control as an advantage, rest it's just...yeah you know better

I recall that old video of US army soldiers trying it out, and they found it smoother to shoot than their M4s. It has the right weight to keep the recoil down since the 62gr. round is as hot as an M855. Only if the production batches were consistent in quality. And even the propellant isn't consistent between batches

Otherwise the 2 rounds would be near identical in terminal ballistics, with the INSAS firing with slightly higher muzzle energy than an M855 out of an M16.​

 

[Tactical Doge]

will you be taught to fire a SIG 716?

Insas/Insas lmg/CMG/ak203/sig/Negev/carlgustav

 

[aspdeepak]

Bharat forging (Kalyani) is the largest forging company and has extensive knowledge in metallurgy. They also have extensive knowledge in large caliber fun barrels (ATAGS), so this is a great win-win situation.

Bharat Forge - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

For anybody who wants know what is metal injection moulding is:


View: https://youtu.be/Ys-RMVJ89dk?si=0KCV4B4Y5kiv3o3b

Industrial scale MIM:

View: https://youtu.be/3CJmdMHi5vU?si=H6R-Ktghlc-49gWa


View: https://youtu.be/adV0XowK8h0?si=AkZaEDXZ-YLY7og3

 

[johny_baba]

this carbine tender thing literally stemmed out from ARDE / OFB's failures of delivering an adoptable Carbine variant of INSAS around 90s when the rifle and G variants got inducted but carbine one got rejected over high noise and controllability issues - after that they forked Amogh and eventually MSMC/JVPC out of that line while also trying to woo the armed forces with some Kalantak "micro assault rifle" thing

so as i was saying,
THE ORIGINAL INSAS Carbine was a short barrel version of INSAS, looked something like this

yeah i know it's matchbox sized pic, but that's the only one i have from some late '80s era article on INSAS by Shekhar Gupta

it failed in trials over 'too much recoil, noise' reasons, but aside from this, there existed a...variant like this because...reasons



anyways, then DRDO ARDE folks made Amogh in 5.56x30mm MINSAS, original Amogh had wooden construction with AKS-47 style underfolding buttstock


some other small matchbox styled images suggest Amogh too had some other prototypes like,
-one with AK style build as shown above, a reciprocating charging handle on right side and AK side fire selector on right side, some had vertical front grip like above, some didn't,
-other was INSAS-esque build with a non-reciprocating SLR-esque charging handle on left side atop handguards and thumb operated fire selector on left side => THIS INSAS-esque build of Amogh became standard build of Amogh later on, with INSAS styled polymer translucent magazine, black coloured polymer furniture etc



but Amogh too didn't get adopted as Carbine, although plenty of police and paramilitary units are using it

then, DRDO ARDE folks tried to revive original INSAS Carbine line by making Kalantak '07 that later got name "Micro Assault Rifle", the earlier prototype was probably forked from OG failed INSAS carbine, while later prototype was probably forked from Excalibur rifle,

as you could clearly see there's...some thing sticking out of barrel of Kalantak here...what is it ? my best assumption is, it's some sort of 'expansion chamber' ported from barrel so excess gases can expand there and reduce muzzle blast and noise, the front end might be having release port for them to vent out after expanding in rearward bulged chamber
and also, in later Excalibur fork of Kalantak '07 with black things, you can also see a magwell extension ?! yes! that 'button' like thing seems like magazine release button,
and yes that Eotech Holographic sight is actually mounted atop a small piece of picatiny rail! perhaps Kalantak '07 was first ever desi weapon here with even a piece of picatiny rail!

nevertheless, even Kalantak '07 'Micro Assault Rifle' did not get adopted

then happened what?
most likely MSMC/JVPC
those too had two distinct variants,

original MSMC was like above, with giant open pistol grip for most likely using it with mittens in cold regions, this build was definitely forked from INSAS 1B, and it had single piece kalashnikov style receiver design, top cover was just held in place by locking recesses on trunnions and recoil spring tab at end, top cover was given full length of picatiny rail for reddot or holographic style optics, it also had a gas cut off lever in front, for some reasons?! and yes it did take bayonets too

later they further improved upon this fork of MSMC, the changes on it were minimal, probably they removed gas cut off lever, and provided more pistol-grip styled frame at bottom, rest it remained same,

then, they shifted to two-piece receiver design with final prototype of MSMC that eventually became JVPC

top - final variant of MSMC that became JVPC, bottom - current version of JVPC in that finish, notice changes in handguards and grip section, also i think very recent JVPCs also have newer design of muzzle device on barrel

So, JVPC is partially in service across various units but didn't become mainstream replacement of 9mm 'Sterling' Carbines

^a summary of how much we've gone through just to replace that janky ass 9mm Sterlings

 

[vampyrbladez]

 

[RDXChauhan]

SVDs need to be replaced though. Those are rather ancient at this point. I remember a few years back they were modernising those. How's the progress on that front?

Yes
Fab defence and SSSD mod kits were procured for a lot of them

But a significant number of unmodified ones are still present, intrestingly they show up more with Ghatak platoons than the Battalion Marksman or whatever way the Sniper/Marksmen are working

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Why so much recoil

View: https://youtu.be/6-yxGLH1808?si=vXryiEXpXkHMTns1

62gr. round my man. IMO they shouldn't fire 5.56 INSAS from that 12 inch barrel. Standard 55gr. 5.56 is more than enough for this gun.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Not sure if posted already. the ASMI 9mm comes in 3 sizes now. 9.5 inch, 7.5 inch and 6.5 inch barrels.

 

[johny_baba]

Not sure if posted already. the ASMI 9mm comes in 3 sizes now. 9.5 inch, 7.5 inch and 6.5 inch barrels.View attachment 41171

just a little criticism for tactical reasons,
first fullsized variant is fine overall, but second and third one with that folding charging handle knob so near to the muzzle is a bit concerning,
in combat a muzzle goes heated up with just 10 some rounds fired, and having it this close to a hot part may burn an operator's hand when he attempts to reload and charge his weapon,
solution without much change in overall design is to place a separator above and below charging handle knob that prevents accidental touching of muzzle

 

[Corvus Splendens]

just a little criticism for tactical reasons,
first fullsized variant is fine overall, but second and third one with that folding charging handle knob so near to the muzzle is a bit concerning,
in combat a muzzle goes heated up with just 10 some rounds fired, and having it this close to a hot part may burn an operator's hand when he attempts to reload and charge his weapon,
solution without much change in overall design is to place a separator above and below charging handle knob that prevents accidental touching of muzzle

Seems to be a common feature from the ASMI to the Carbine to the UGRAM to the JVPC. The same style of folding non-reciprocating charging handles. I don't know what kind of paranoia warrants a blanket commonality like this.

 

[username unkown]

Not sure if posted already. the ASMI 9mm comes in 3 sizes now. 9.5 inch, 7.5 inch and 6.5 inch barrels.View attachment 41171

On full fledge varient it needs a diff buttstock a more low profile
And a genuine question can't they make a kind of vertical grip which can also hold thease 9mm magzine sometihing like flux raider for thease

 

[asl001]

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/lxp-huJW0WM?si=vub4CqjETr_jl-W8

 

[asl001]

View: https://youtu.be/q1bOd_424B4?si=9e5Rndsjo8EUZ8JB
Lot of zoomed shots. Hence posting it

 

[johny_baba]

Seems to be a common feature from the ASMI to the Carbine to the UGRAM to the JVPC. The same style of folding non-reciprocating charging handles. I don't know what kind of paranoia warrants a blanket commonality like this.
View attachment 41175
View attachment 41176
View attachment 41177

in our case it's mostly for that training and handling commonality thing still being followed from era of 1A SLR

but in terms of designs, charging handles are honestly perhaps least talked and underrated parts in firearms, and almost in all firearm designs I've observed it mostly comes out as a one or other kind of compromise

take standard AK for an example, reciprocating handle affixed on bolt carrier itself, now you have some plus and minuses like,
+ simplest, nonsensical design, maintenance free, easy and cheap to manufacture
+ doubles as forward assist, just slam on it if the bolt carrier on your AK didn't seat fully forward
- requires a slot in design as it moves along with reciprocating bolt carrier, opens up an AK enough for dust, dirt and all kinds of shits to go in the working parts like trigger group
- sticks out in perpendicular to the rifle, may get stuck in your gears or other stuff when moving around with it in your arms
- since its on right side, your regular right handed shooter may have to take his hand off the pistol grip to operate it (though it could also be seen as an accidental fire prevention feature in long way)
>so, compromise in terms of sealing of design, some handling and tactics things

take standard AR for an example,
> very first AR prototype too had reciprocating knob of charging handle on right side with big opening on bolt carrier side
> as the design progressed, priority shifted towards providing the most sealed design possible, so they first put it atop and that "carrying handle" atop that also acted as a shroud for charging handle for accidental bumping, eventually with second prototype of AR15 they shifted towards triangular T-bar design that further evoved as T-bar design of non reciprocating charging handle we all know
> some of early top handle prototypes did have some means to manually actuate bolt forward ala forward assist, those portuguese AR-10 used that, there was even some upward turning T-bar design with clamps like things to grasp on bolt carrier and use as some sorta forward assist, but most production level first pattern M16 sacrificed forward assisting feature for sake of simplicity (it's also a thing that first large scale AR-15 adopter was USAF ground personnel who might not have much idea about need of forward assist), only vietnam experiences made them to adopt side mounted paddle or button as forward assist device thing with M16A1
> so overall, T-bar comes with,
+ sealed design, doesn't stick out, simple design and manufacturing
- sacrificing bolt forward assist feature, but a dedicated device is added to right side for that, became standard
- an operator has to take his hand off pistol grip to actuate it BUT also his chin off from buttstock as it'd otherwise hit on it, though with bolt hold open one can bypass this operation

in case of INSAS pattern firearms
> they chose Kalashnikov design but adopted it around 1A SLR features
> design is sealed in right side (in kalashnikov standards), while left side has a dedicated charging handle just near the handguards
> charging handle design is taken from 1A SLR, it's affixed to a slot cut and long rod somewhat keeps it sealed upto acceptable levels, knob folds down when not in use
> some later designs like Amogh, JVPC, this 5.56x45mm Carbine (just name it something re I'm annoyed of writing it like this) also added a manual bolt hold open "button" there to lock it backwards
so this design has
+ training commonality, operational commonality
+ makes it sealed upto acceptable levels
+ position is such that an operator can easily use it without breaking his grip off pistol grip, and supposed to use his gripping/non-operating hand to use it, even in prone firing
+ doesn't go in way of gears and other stuffs much while moving around
- perhaps more parts involved here to build it on a firearm
- completely sacrificing bolt forwarding feature, but it already wasn't there on 1A SLR so...yeah, legacy of old things, our soldiers are trained to cycle their rifles to clear any malfunction

so it's not just some knob that racks bolt carrier on a rifle, it involves lots of design and operational characteristics

whenever i think about guns, charging handles often perplex me, makes me think deeply about various "what if..." scenarios like how changes in charging handle would affect a firearm and all...

I personally think simplest and least compromising design of charging handle out there was what russians did on their second and third prototype of original AK-12 (not current AK-74M with just top rails design originally named AK-400) - it had some Z shaped design that could be rotated around so with simple disassembly it can be made left or right handed, and that Z shape allowed for not having an open slot on sides as it could just cycle without touching main body - that sheet metal of body could just pass in that space between Z shape, and of course as a reciprocal design it could also double as forward assist
just observe yourself

but this design didn't pass Ratnik trials over some other reliability concerns like ejection angle problems, the gas piston had to have some opening between its stem for allowing passage for that top cover lug which made it fragile, but mostly Izhmash Arms met a fate similar to OFBs here as it got reconstructed into Kalashnikov Concern and this design was sidelined in favour of more traditional AK design that eventually became AK-12

 

[Corvus Splendens]

in our case it's mostly for that training and handling commonality thing still being followed from era of 1A SLR

but in terms of designs, charging handles are honestly perhaps least talked and underrated parts in firearms, and almost in all firearm designs I've observed it mostly comes out as a one or other kind of compromise

take standard AK for an example, reciprocating handle affixed on bolt carrier itself, now you have some plus and minuses like,
+ simplest, nonsensical design, maintenance free, easy and cheap to manufacture
+ doubles as forward assist, just slam on it if the bolt carrier on your AK didn't seat fully forward
- requires a slot in design as it moves along with reciprocating bolt carrier, opens up an AK enough for dust, dirt and all kinds of shits to go in the working parts like trigger group
- sticks out in perpendicular to the rifle, may get stuck in your gears or other stuff when moving around with it in your arms
- since its on right side, your regular right handed shooter may have to take his hand off the pistol grip to operate it (though it could also be seen as an accidental fire prevention feature in long way)
>so, compromise in terms of sealing of design, some handling and tactics things

take standard AR for an example,
> very first AR prototype too had reciprocating knob of charging handle on right side with big opening on bolt carrier side
> as the design progressed, priority shifted towards providing the most sealed design possible, so they first put it atop and that "carrying handle" atop that also acted as a shroud for charging handle for accidental bumping, eventually with second prototype of AR15 they shifted towards triangular T-bar design that further evoved as T-bar design of non reciprocating charging handle we all know
> some of early top handle prototypes did have some means to manually actuate bolt forward ala forward assist, those portuguese AR-10 used that, there was even some upward turning T-bar design with clamps like things to grasp on bolt carrier and use as some sorta forward assist, but most production level first pattern M16 sacrificed forward assisting feature for sake of simplicity (it's also a thing that first large scale AR-15 adopter was USAF ground personnel who might not have much idea about need of forward assist), only vietnam experiences made them to adopt side mounted paddle or button as forward assist device thing with M16A1
> so overall, T-bar comes with,
+ sealed design, doesn't stick out, simple design and manufacturing
- sacrificing bolt forward assist feature, but a dedicated device is added to right side for that, became standard
- an operator has to take his hand off pistol grip to actuate it BUT also his chin off from buttstock as it'd otherwise hit on it, though with bolt hold open one can bypass this operation

in case of INSAS pattern firearms
> they chose Kalashnikov design but adopted it around 1A SLR features
> design is sealed in right side (in kalashnikov standards), while left side has a dedicated charging handle just near the handguards
> charging handle design is taken from 1A SLR, it's affixed to a slot cut and long rod somewhat keeps it sealed upto acceptable levels, knob folds down when not in use
> some later designs like Amogh, JVPC, this 5.56x45mm Carbine (just name it something re I'm annoyed of writing it like this) also added a manual bolt hold open "button" there to lock it backwards
so this design has
+ training commonality, operational commonality
+ makes it sealed upto acceptable levels
+ position is such that an operator can easily use it without breaking his grip off pistol grip, and supposed to use his gripping/non-operating hand to use it, even in prone firing
+ doesn't go in way of gears and other stuffs much while moving around
- perhaps more parts involved here to build it on a firearm
- completely sacrificing bolt forwarding feature, but it already wasn't there on 1A SLR so...yeah, legacy of old things, our soldiers are trained to cycle their rifles to clear any malfunction

so it's not just some knob that racks bolt carrier on a rifle, it involves lots of design and operational characteristics

whenever i think about guns, charging handles often perplex me, makes me think deeply about various "what if..." scenarios like how changes in charging handle would affect a firearm and all...

I personally think simplest and least compromising design of charging handle out there was what russians did on their second and third prototype of original AK-12 (not current AK-74M with just top rails design originally named AK-400) - it had some Z shaped design that could be rotated around so with simple disassembly it can be made left or right handed, and that Z shape allowed for not having an open slot on sides as it could just cycle without touching main body - that sheet metal of body could just pass in that space between Z shape, and of course as a reciprocal design it could also double as forward assist
just observe yourself
View attachment 41186
but this design didn't pass Ratnik trials over some other reliability concerns like ejection angle problems, the gas piston had to have some opening between its stem for allowing passage for that top cover lug which made it fragile, but mostly Izhmash Arms met a fate similar to OFBs here as it got reconstructed into Kalashnikov Concern and this design was sidelined in favour of more traditional AK design that eventually became AK-12

Folding non-reciprocating charging handles are in a resurgence actually. With the new FN SCAR 17 NRCH and the HK433 both adopting it.